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Author Topic: Starter won't stop on International pickup  (Read 2995 times)

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Offline Trapper John

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Starter won't stop on International pickup
« on: April 28, 2016, 07:18:56 AM »
I have a 78 international 1200 4X4 pickup and thinking of using it to power my belsaw (temporarily) but the starter will not disengage and stop.  It works fine on the bench.  I suspect the drive gear is getting hung up on the flywheel and the spring cannot kick it out.  Any ideas how to fix this? 

Offline AndrewY

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 07:46:04 AM »
I have a 78 international 1200 4X4 pickup and thinking of using it to power my belsaw (temporarily) but the starter will not disengage and stop.  It works fine on the bench.  I suspect the drive gear is getting hung up on the flywheel and the spring cannot kick it out.  Any ideas how to fix this?

Does it get continuous power when cranking on the truck? As in it turns itself forever after you stop? If it keeps powering itself it is the starter solenoid, usually a separate piece that controls the power supply to the starter. Bench testing the starter alone will make the starter seem fine, until it is reinstalled and the solenoid keeps supplying power. I had a bronco do the same thing, except the solenoid would catch on fire...

Offline LeeB

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 07:55:10 AM »
I had to read twice. Thought it said international pickup won't start.  :D
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Online Logger RK

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2016, 08:06:27 AM »
Sometimes if you have low voltage a starter  will keep cranking. Solenoid gets spot wielded together I believe  :P

Offline Ox

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2016, 09:05:46 AM »
I second the starter solenoid being bad.  A generic starter solenoid will likely work.  The most common was the style used on Ford pickups for several decades.
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Offline Gearbox

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2016, 09:14:35 AM »
Did you try to use a wire to the solenoid to bypass the ignition switch . IHC solenoids have a brown cap on the solenoids because of the heat from the manifold . You may not even find one like that anymore . WOW I was going to offer to send you a starter till I saw where you are at. Where is Galena?
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Offline starmac

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2016, 11:33:14 AM »
Low voltage at the starter is generally the culprit, battery or cables either one. Sometimes the solenoid survives and sometimes it doesn't. It is possible that the solenoid wire has voltage anytime the key is on, but that would be rare, and the starter would usually try to engage as soon as you turned the key on.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline Trapper John

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2016, 12:27:21 PM »
Thanks for the ideas guys.  Actually I replaced the solenoid from one out of an GMC dump truck which had a longer spring than the International solenoid so I used it thinking it would be stronger.  I bench tested the starter with the new solenoid installed and it was OK.  It is not the wiring harness because I disconnected both wires to the solenoid while it was cranking and it did not stop.  The battery is good so I will check cables next.  Gearhead, Galena is 200 miles west of Fairbanks on the Yukon River, and no road to this village of 500.  Things are expensive except moose meat and water. 

Offline starmac

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2016, 12:49:24 PM »
I am not sure about the spring swap you are talking about, solenoid or bendix. You can (if you have available) use a ford type fender mounted solenoid and bypass the solenoid on the starter. I did this in the mountains on a ford diesel to get home once and wore the pickup out without changeing it back, and have done it to multiple gm pickups, just for the accessability to the solenoid with no problems.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline Trapper John

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 02:15:49 PM »
I cleaned up my cables/clamps but it is still cranking.  Guess I will order a new solenoid from NAPA.  Starmac, my solenoid is connected to a lever that throws the Bendix at the same time the main contacts are activated.  Are you saying I can bypass that lever and just the rotation of the starter will throw the Bendix?  Another thing is that after I pull the cable off the battery to stop the starter, the solenoid returns to disengaged and I can fasten the cable back on the battery.  Kind of eliminates the spot welded idea. 

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 08:06:35 PM »
It just sounds like the coil inside the solenoid is still getting power...

This is a sample on how they work.

 

 
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Offline Kcwoodbutcher

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 08:17:02 PM »
When you pull the battery cable do you kill the motor? If it has the lever arrangement as you mentioned the gear could get hung up on the flywheel, that would cause the solenoid to stay engaged. If the motor dies when you pull the cable that would release the gear and the solenoid would deactivate.
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 08:25:14 PM »
Kbeitz,

Not to confuse the issue, but look at this solenoid on my trencher.  The battery (and alternator, blue wire) is connected on the right, starter on the left and key (black wire) on the little terminal.  Works great.  What are the other two lugs on the top used for???

 
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2016, 08:37:40 PM »
I think what you have is a reversing solenoid. They are used on winches.
Big dollar solenoid.

 

 
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Offline starmac

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2016, 09:25:32 PM »
Trapper John, if yours has the lever assembly it will not work. The way I did mine was hotwired the solenoid on the starter on the gm starters and put the remote solenoid on the fender well, so thet I could easily use a remote starter button. This would not work in your case as, the solenoid would still be getting power.

Somwe of the older solenoids had two small wires on them, one was to get 12 volts from the ignition switch and the other was to supply a full 12 volts to the ignition itself while the starter was robbing voltage, is there anyway you could have reversed them.
What happens if you unhook the ignition wire and only leave the battery cable connected and jump across the terminals to start it? If it stays engaged then, I would think the gear on the starter is hanging in the flywheel and spinning the starter.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline starmac

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2016, 09:28:51 PM »
An easy way to check this is to pull the coil wire and hit the ignition, if it still trys to crank the motor when you let off, it would be the solenoid, if it stops, your bendix gear is hanging in.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline Trapper John

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 09:54:03 PM »
I have disconnected the ignition wire so I am agreeing with theory that the gear is hanging up on the flywheel.  Which leads to the question, where is the problem?  Is it the flywheel or is it the starter gear?  The gear looked OK when I had the starter off.  I have heard of shimming starters but never tried it.  Would I shim the top bolt or the bottom bolt? 

Offline svart ole

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2016, 11:05:30 PM »
The solenoid is not just a relay on that starter it also engages the gear to the flywheel. When you stop cranking the spring in it should push back the plunger and disengage the starter gear from the flywheel and open the contacts. It could be a alignment or damaged gear tooth issue. If all you did was change to solenoid when you worked on it..... I would say it may be a assembly issue as in when you put it back together you got something in the wrong place. I have seen some starters of that type that if you got it wrong when you put it back together and hit start when you went to stop cranking the solenoid plunger would not return and keep the contacts closed. Makes you glad you had a hatchet in the tool box when the insulation starts to melt off the cables. Bench testing it never indicated the problem as it was not obvious. Another meaningful learning experience. It sure was exciting.  :o
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Offline starmac

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2016, 01:49:18 AM »
The only starters I have ever had to shim were the gm starters that had the bolts facing straight uo, in which case you shimmed them both.
Have you by chance had the bendix gear off and replaced it back on backwards? The beveled end of the gear goes toward the tranny.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline Trapper John

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Re: Starter won't stop on International pickup
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2016, 02:59:29 AM »
Starmac, I did not have the Bendix gear off.  Maybe when I energize the solenoid in the normal way it causes a short to the battery cable which would keep it energized.  Removing all battery power to solenoid releases it and removes the short, sort of resetting itself.  Both solenoids I have tried are old so this could be a possibility.  I think a new solenoid is next before I mess around with shims and alignment.  With shims I can only adjust distance the Bendix travels into ring gear (or angle).  I cannot adjust how close the Bendix is to ring gear.  Does this make sense?


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