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Author Topic: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?  (Read 3187 times)

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Offline Satamax

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Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« on: October 06, 2017, 04:19:23 PM »
Guys, i know i'm a total newb.

There is two questions.

When you use a timberjack or other skidder. When you winch, you're in the cabin? Right? It's better if you have a help to pull and attach the cable no?

The question now is, what do i choose? Mechanical winch, which surely can only be piloted from the driver's seat?

In which i would have to adapt the winch to the chassis. Make a dog clutch, to lock the winch shaft to the transfer case PTO, it's nice, that i would have 5 forward speeds, for winching, and one reverse, in case i need to release the drum, because i have tangled a tree.

Or, since i have found the gearbox's back PTO, which can take some serious power.

Do i fit an hydraulic winch. Which would have only forward and reverse. Speed could be adjusted via a proportional distributor.  Require less machining. Could be piloted from the cabin, or the rear.

Paralleling two distributors for example. Staying outside could also help, so i could do the running and the winching. Could also be easily retrofitted with a remote at a later date.

Remember this if kind of hobby logging. Well, i have a sawmill to feed. I wouldn't mind leaving the workshop a bit more, to go into the woods. So, i need some serious kit nevertheless.

Which would you choose?   

And i have two more questions.

How do you call the raised cable roller, on skidders? The one over the log basket?

Where do i attach the hoop hitch for the trailer and log arch?  To the log basket, or do i make a window in the log basket, to attach the hitch to the chassis?

Thanks guys!
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Online mike_belben

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 08:30:22 PM »
Direct coupling is more efficient and faster.  Power transmission efficiency is in the upper 90% range.  In your case a power limiting fuse may be something important to consider since it may be possible to snap driveline, cable, etc depending on if your winch is mechanically fixed or internally clutched.   

Limiting line force is easy with a hydraulic setup, just adjust the relief valve setting to bypass at a certain fluid psi.    The kinda minor downside to hydraulic is its low efficiency ..  Low 80% would be top tier all new parts.. More like 60% for most old hydraulic systems, whether fixed displacement or variable.  A fixed disp system would give you a fixed drum speed.  line speed will vary slightly by how many turns are on the drum in any configuration.  With a fixed pump i see no real point in trying to vary speed by choking down flow.  Its just another part to buy and itll generate heat and burn fuel for naught.   Size it big and idle the machine down when you want it to go slower.   If fancy is your thing, a swash plate in either the pump or the motor would give you speed control.  A single spoo logsplitter valve will work fine for reeling out cable while you pull.  You could set up a string to untrip the detent if running all the way back to the tractor was too much of a chore.


The cable guide is called a fairlead if it has rollers or a hawse if its just a radiused slot.  I have tested placement quite a lot in skidding with a garden tractor believe it or not.  Its very apparent what works and what doesnt when you lack brute force to compensate for bad design.

On your machine i would place the winch as low as possible and right behind the cab.  Shortest hoses to buy are one bonus.  I would only put the winch at the rear if your machine is so light in back that it suffers for traction when not pulling a hitch.  The logs are your traction ballast when skidding.  Higher you lift the more ballast you get, the easier they slide and cleaner they stay.  The highest fairlead possible and as close or even slightly forward of the rear axle centerline is best imo.  Too far forward and youll have issues with turning as the buttplate would jam into your logs, but it will reduce wheelies.  The further back your fairlead the worse the wheelies will be.

With that in mind I also suggest multiple rollers at different height.  Such as straight line pull right out of the winch (max force, minimal wheelies but no height) medium above that and highest above that (best height but worst wheelies.)  You might as well make a tree pusher platform to nudge stems against their lean, and to stand on for setting a highline to winch them over.  Do it right the first time, youll want these features sooner or later.    If youre gonna be winching logs up steep hillsides you might even want to make an even taller yarder sort of mast on back, and add provision to anchor the machine from the front.  The highline will really help get butts up in the air but yanking your machine over backwards gets to be a problem.   If ALL your work is winching up hillsides, consider putting two winches.  One to anchor to a trunk at the bottom and another to pull a zipline trolley that logs are choked to. 


For fairlead rollers, worn out dozer bottom rolls work great.  Double flange and with a big radius to go easy on your cable.  Find em in the local equipment fixers scrap hopper.   Make that mast crazy strong or itll buckle over sideways in a turn when youre trying to pivot a hitch off some bumper tree and you goose it to unwedge from the inevitable tangle it always gets into.

Pics!
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 02:15:16 AM »
Thanks a lot Mike for the reply.

Well, hydraulic wise. A teacher friend was saying, on the french 4X4 forum i hang around.

To make it all hydraulic, for simplicity sake. No machining. I already have most of the hoses on the machine. I have proportional valves. Rams. I bought the right kind of PTO, which bolts to the rear of the gearbox. So no worries about it's reversal etc. Only problem is to estimate the maximum power it can take! To be able to choose the hydraulic pump.

If i would go mechanical on the transfer case PTO, I have a 5 spd winch basically. But i have to fabricate the dog clutch. Not that hard, but still a bit of work. And it's all in the cabin winching after that. Except for the winch spool's dog.

Winch placement as you say, furthest behind the cab. Except if i have to fit the hydraulic tank there.

I was thinking RSJ or C profile for the fairlead. I have some 17cm width of both. Instead of different height rollers, i could also hydraulically adjust it's height. Like on a tow truck. I have four valves. So blade, log basket. Winch?  And i have room for more! :D

My winching will be all on hillsides. Tho, if possible i would stop the skidder on flatish bits to winch. They do exist! :D

I see the zipline thing. Like a Cable and mast thing? Too complicated imho. For the moment i'm gearing up to winch 30 trees a year, or a smidge more. Firewood, friend's trees will get in the equation too.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Neilo

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 04:44:40 AM »
Are you building a skidder, or do you have a skidder without a winch?

Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2017, 05:08:47 AM »
Are you building a skidder, or do you have a skidder without a winch?

Half and half.

Basically, this company, Latil, used to make "equipment" chassis. Meant to build trucks, snowblowers, pushers, train pushers, forestry tractors etc.

And so far i have this.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,97397.0.html

Mine is a TL73P, P means Carrier. So no air brakes. No PTO's, a basic naked unit, onto which the society Peter built the snowblower. But it's the exact same chassis, axles etc as the skidder. Tho, i have three "speeds" one normal, one low, and one extra low. Front axle disengageable. Lots of cold start equipment. Everything was taken on the rear engine. Hydraulics, air. Et power for the snowblower.

For the front end, i am cutting the snowblower backplate, to make a log pusher blade. I already have the right arms etc.

The rear end is a pain. I obviously try to spend the least possible.

And to find the best solution. I'm looking at two or three winches on a french classifieds site. A friend sais, he can give me a big 40KW hydraulic motor. But it's too slow for most of the french logging winches. These run around 19 to 20 to 1. 600rpm is too slow for those. So it's either i build a winch with the many parts i have laying around. Or i find a winch and a proper hydraulic motor. Or i fit a mechanical transmission to the winch. This is where i'm standing now.

Puzzled, stumped!

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Online pineywoods

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 09:29:17 AM »
I have home-built winch mounted on a large kubota tractor. I opted for a mechanical winch but driven with a hydraulic motor running off the tractor hydraulics. Built in dog clutch, instant reverse/power out. Chain drive so I could diddle with sprocket sizes to select speed. Big advantage, mount the winch any where you want, just re-rout the hoses.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 12:15:21 PM »
Ive seen quite a few doodlebugs scrapped in my life.  Worm gear braden winches that were probably ww2 military surplus.. With a basic manual car trans to give a few speeds and reverse was the typical setup.    That could run off a belt, a chain, driveshaft pto or hydraulic motor input to the car trans.  Very versatile.   
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Offline millwright

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »
One thing to think on, if you are standing outside the cab and running the winch you will probably be in the line of fire if something breaks or let's go.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 12:58:30 AM »
Thanks a lot to all of you guys.

In France, a lot of people made 3 point hitch winches, out of ww2 military winches.

Still now.

I am looking at a proper forestry one, from the brand Pan, or is it a Pan Bonnier. Bonnier was building gearboxes for the winches, military winches, and forestry ones.

I think i will hydraulicize it.

 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Puffergas

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 12:28:35 PM »
Made a hydraulic for a tractor a long time ago, slow, one speed. Later a geared winch behind a transfer case behind a 5 speed tranny. Lots of gears to choose from. All the power from the engine could be used.













I like being in a protected cab when winching. Hate to be standing on the side of a machine that could tip over or be behind of one that could be pulled backwards.
Jeff
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Online mike_belben

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 01:18:10 PM »
Love it.
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 03:17:38 PM »
Thanks a lot. I like it too!
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2017, 09:03:37 PM »
Any updates?
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 03:06:36 AM »
I kind of have my mind set on mechanical now. I have two leads for the PTO on the transfer case. One from the reo M35, which isn't exactly the same. But close enough so i can modify.  350 dolls plus shipping.

The other one, a proper T226 one; I don't know anything about it yet. The salvage yard hasn't gotten it in yet.

They announce some snow for the weekend. I'm busy as hell. Have to do some roofing modifications at 6600ft. In the local pass! Not looking forward to it! Back on the chairlifts on the 6th of december. I think winch and all is not gonna be fitted before next summer now.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 04:33:08 PM »
Do you ever put wire cables over the roof of a building to hold the building down in strong wind areas?

If the pto does not work out because of their age, you might try a short shaft to a separate newer clutch unit.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2017, 12:43:07 AM »
Thanks Riwaka.

Well, strongest winds we've seen here, may be 100 miles per hour. There is few chairlift huts, which are tied down.  But not with cables over the top. our type of construction here is far heavier than in the US. Everything is poured concrete, or at least concrete blocks. For 1500 sqft of workshop, with a slab to support a 600 sqft flat above. A friend pourred 170 tons. Woodwise, Rafters are often 4x6, or even 4x8. Spaced 2ft appart. Purlins, often 4x10 or 5x12. Spaced 4ft appart.

Using a shaft and a clutch was my idea. But couldn't find anything which would whistand the torque. Hydraulic pump engagement clutchs are only good to 400n/m. No more.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 02:52:48 PM »
Dang!

The guy i was talking to about the PTO is one who thinks he owns gold!


Back to square 1!  >:(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 08:44:13 PM »
He owns a winch and wants to trade it for gold.  Tell him to apply @ caterpillar!
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
Guys, what would you think about a Braden winch?



From a WW2 dodge as the guy said to me. Or may be a later one. Dunno!
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 09:27:19 PM »
Does it have freewheel or just power out?
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Offline Satamax

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2017, 01:49:42 AM »
Well Mike. I don't know.  It should have it. Won't buy, if ever it doesn't. I wonder which model this can be. Well checked a bit more. MU2 or MU3. Has a declutch on the worm and gear side, if it's one of two models.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2017, 01:58:37 AM »
Declutch might be the white painted piece of metal, on the worm side.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2017, 02:17:06 AM »
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2017, 09:46:56 AM »
Im getting a blank popup from that link.  Anyone else?
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2017, 10:16:33 AM »
Yep, me too. I copy the link, and paste it in the adress bar. All the links lately.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
I thought it was something on my end. I'm getting no pop-up at all. I click the link and nothing happens, but copy and paste works. I went back and tried some links on older posts. Some are still working, some are not.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2017, 01:12:05 PM »
Im unable to copy it on my droid
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2017, 10:52:28 AM »
I am dumb.

I bought a dog clutch from a fiat panda 4x4. While i had found a split shaft PTO.



I should have used my brain a bit more.

The guy wants 350 for it.  I have offered 150, hopping to settle for 200 plus shipping. That would be nice. I don't really need the two side ones. But they could come in handy.  Will see what he says. The ad has been there for nearly two months.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2017, 10:50:31 PM »
So the unit pictured on pallet is the correct bolt up part for your tcase?  Or do you need to hack it all up and fab stuff?
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2017, 01:32:47 AM »
Mike, thanks for your reply.



Well, i would need to make a flange or is it yoke, the word i'm looking for?  Which would replace this cross "dog clutch" May be find the part in the us. There's the whole assembly, cover, oil seal, flange, may be there is a bearing, i don't know. But if the guy sells me the thing at the price i'm looking for, i'll grab it. Only thing to make sure, if this fits in the chassis, widthwise.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2017, 09:14:15 PM »
Americans would call the bolt circle a "mating flange" and the dog clutch most would probably consider a "shaft coupler" or coupling.  Aka a "lovejoy" which is the dominant  brand of 3 jaw couplers with a rubber spider between them.

There are also less popular spline and chain couplers
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2017, 03:16:31 AM »
Hi Mike. Thanks a lot for the reply.

Well, the guy selling the split shaft PTO is ok for 240. Not bad i would say.

I have rumaged on the internet, it seems that the shaft coupler doesn't exist from Rockwell list of parts.

I'll carry on searching !

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2017, 04:03:15 AM »
Bolt flange to 4 jaw is a very easy coupler to make for any machine shop.  Turn on lathe, mill jaw slots on bridgeport, drill bolt flange on dividing head or vertical indexer.  A conversational 2axis cnc mill could lay the bolt circle on in a few minutes


You want the bolts to go through the tcase flange from the back side and thread into blind holes in the metal adapter puck.  The threads will face forward like your headlights. 
 
The blind holes should not extend into the dogs or itll weaken them.  Nor would i drill thru holes in the dog faces for pass thru bolts.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2017, 06:48:02 AM »
Hi Mike, daft me, i didn't think about this solution.

A four jaw flange. I see what you mean. Like a very thick hockey puck. Four dogs fitting in what i have. A center hole, with a longer bolt, attaching all of this together. Four,six or eight threaded holes for the shaft's flange on the back of the hockey puck . And a big ol seal around this.

I get it. And the best thing, i can do it myself. I have lathe and milling machine.

The only problem i have is making internal splines. Which, with your idea, i don't have to do!

Thanks a lot.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2017, 10:21:20 AM »
Shoot, I didnt realize that the oil wasnt already sealed behind 4jaw coupler.. I figured it had an output shaft thru a seal then coupler slid on.  I did build a wet tube coupler once because the front input bearing on the second case needed lubrication. and it worked well, npt fill and level plugs right on top.  But it looks like the iveko was divorce mounted? 

Does that have a reverser inside?  If so id like to have about 10 of those things. 

If you ever need internal splines the easiest way is to just send that part out to a company with a wire EDM machine, so much faster than broaching or keyshaping, this cheaper.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2017, 11:37:21 AM »
Thanks for your reply Mike.

Yep, it's a divorced PTO.  Or, i think more comonly called split shaft. If you look for the term on eBay and Craiglist, i'm prety sure you can find one.

I think i will find a way. May be turn the flange and slip,  and get it splined.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2017, 11:41:08 AM »
See, when you look for split shaft pto. You find these.

 https://www.google.fr/search?q=split+shaft+pto&dcr=0&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ5KKY0KrYAhULLsAKHTvIDAEQ_AUIESgC&biw=360&bih=556

I went to check the muncie power site.

And their big split shaft PTO's are marked PZB pederzani and zinni, bologna. Which is the brand of the one showed above.

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2017, 09:59:12 PM »
Those things are neat.  That link brings up an image of a clone of something i do have, Funk 6 speed dropbox tcase from a pettibone 20ton 4ws crane.  Its gonna go in my 8x8 forwarder project.  Im throwin in the towel once thats built.
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Re: Mechanical or hydraulic winch?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2018, 02:01:19 PM »
Hiya!

Well, after some  waiting, i received the part i bought before discovering the other one.

I might have done an assessment mistake.

I thought the conical gear was on a keyed shaft. But as it seems this is not the case. I will need to heck exploded views.

It's rather big, at more than 10 inches. And i think this will be able to power a big winch.






This ought to be strong enough to power a winch.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.


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