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Author Topic: Machine for S4S and T&G?  (Read 3869 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 06:58:29 AM »
Tkehl, I "would like" but not a hard requirement on the width.  If I could at least machine 8" wide material that would work too.  4" wide is no good, because 2x6 would definitely be a requirement, and 2x8 finished material would be a want.

Jeff, thank you so much for your offer.  I will take you up on that when we can.

I'm going to get some education here before I make any decisions.  I have to consider my space availability in my mill shop(my woodmizer is inside) and how much real estate it would take up, and power requirements versus what's available.  I don't plan to make material day in and day out, but as my milled material air dries, I can run batches though as desired, making flooring, T&G, or S4S boards.  I have milled mostly beams up to now for building timber frame(for me).  But I'm planning to do more T&G and S4S in the near future.  I don't mill full time.  On average 3 days a week.  Some weeks more,  some weeks when have to be away from home, less.  It's just me and my buddy John and I'll be losing him after next summer.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 08:18:32 AM »
How easy is it to S4S random width lumber with a molder? 
Surfacing various widths of stock is something we routinely do to reduce waste.  Or do you surface top and bottom, and only one edge?
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2017, 08:56:44 AM »
They really won't handle random width.  Better to group by size.

I could see surfacing 2 sides pretty easy.  I could also potentially see surfacing 3 sides with the right machine, but mine wouldn't like it.  Would need the right feed rollers etc.
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2017, 01:25:59 PM »
Ive been known to skip plane 3 sides random width through a throughfeed machine... park the left cutterhead out wide and let the rights do a jointing pass. Obviously therr are limits to how much jointing occurs before the workpiece kicks sideways but it's okay.

Even with digital sizing you don't want to be changing sizes any more than you have to, so batch run is still better. How random is random? My material tends to only vary by shrinkage rate... we cut set sizes green to mould to set sizes dry.
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Offline woodworker9

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2017, 09:12:29 PM »
As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

Will

After reading your comments, and re-reading mine, I decided that I wasn't saying what I wanted to say, so I deleted most of the post.  No offense was ever intentionally intended.

Brad

If you ever want to take a ride up and learn about 3 phase, I'll be happy to spend some time with you.

I wasn't suggesting the 4" Woods that my friend has for sale as a solution to your problem, but just as an option to learn more about the vintage molders.  A lot of these vintage molders, like 8" Mattison's, sell frequently for a couple grand or less, but there is always a learning curve, and my experience with all my vintage machinery is that I just expect to take each and every one apart and do a full rebuild before putting them back into service.  That may or may not suit your needs or desires.

Cheers.
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Offline thechknhwk

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 11:28:37 AM »
Brad I'm sure you are already aware, but the logosol is rated up to 10" in width.  I find much over 8" however and the top planer head dust extraction plugs up.

Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 01:16:33 PM »
I sent for more information on the WM4000.  From the picture, and that is all the info they have on line, it looks very similar to the Logosol.  For me, a must have feature of a 4 head moulder is vertical adjustment for the side heads and horizontal adjustment for top and bottom. If it doesn't have both, I won't waste my time with it.  My reasoning is simple. I once operated a Stetson Ross XL that had neither and a setup that took an hour on the Vonegut, Mattson, Paulson or Weinig would take 3 or 4 on the XL.

Edit to add:  Even in a "hobby" shop where high production is not a goal, one has better ways to spend their time than fiddling around with frustrating setups that should be easy.
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2017, 06:16:39 AM »
I just received the fold-out brochure in snail mail, it has a few more pictures and a bit more information on the machine.  It looks pretty attractive to me, but like I said before, I have no experience with 4 head molders. :D :D  Yellowhammer needs to buy one and report back ;D ;D

Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2017, 01:03:09 PM »
So I received the literature on the WM4000 this week and I just got off the phone with Woodmaster and got some answers to some questions.

I will recommend this product with some reservations. You also must understand where I am coming from. I have 17 years experience operating 4, 5 and 6 headed moulders and planers, including Weinig, Mattson, Yates American, Newman and others.  I will admit that I'm spoiled.

Pros:
Woodmaster makes a great product here in the USA
The capacity of this machine is great. 4"x17" for moulding
The heads are arranged in the correct order ( bottom, right, left, top)
Feed speed respectable for a small machine

Cons
No vertical adjustment in side heads for doing such things as aligning T&G.  Relies on shims and knife placement in heads.  (A set of shims come standard with machine.)

Minimum width of moulding is 1"  What if I want to make " cove moulding?

That being said, if you don't mind the setups on T&G where side head alignment is critical, being a bit fiddley and don't need to make small moulding, this sounds to me like a great machine.

And one more thing, 230 volt single phase requires 70 amps plus what ever dust extraction would be.
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Offline WLC

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2017, 04:01:41 PM »
Darrel, thanks for your write up.  I also emailed for the written material and received it last week.  I'm totally out of my element on machines like these as I have never seen one, much less run one.  The thing that stood out to me was the 70 amp requirement on the electric.  Is it just because they have higher horsepower motors than say the Logosol, which is 50 amp?  Still trying to decide if for my use (right now no production work, just personal use) that one of these 4 head machines is worth the money to me over just a standard machine like the woodmaster planer/molder.
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Offline campwags

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2017, 04:41:17 PM »
After getting and reviewing the WoodMaster material on the 4 head planner, for me I would opt for two of the 18" planers.  I have one already with the 3 head molder and spiral planning head.  I would set one up with the spiral planer for surfacing the top and then the 3 head molder for the T&G and back relief cut.  I also have a set of Log siding blades that I have not used yet.  ???
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2017, 04:41:46 PM »
You can cheat with a pony motor...
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2017, 04:59:31 PM »
Brad, I had a Baker M412 four head moulder in my shop for a few years (bought new).  It was similar to a Logosol PH360 and quite frankly the Woodmaster WM4000 appears to be very similar....

It was fine for limited runs, but I sold it because I felt that it was too light duty for production rates of flooring manufacture.  We had to replace many of the bearings in less than 500 hours of use, and the fellow that bought it from me had to do the same thing.  They just are not heavy enough for 6 hour a day continuous operation.  Feed rate was slow too.

We had to presize our blanks within about 1/8", had continual problems with chip extraction (15HP dust extraction which works great on my 25" jointer/planer but was not adequate for the small Baker moulder...).

If you plan on doing any type of volume, then I would suggest a good, used 5 or 6 head moulder. 

My 2 cents.  By all means though explore the WM4000; they are a site sponsor and worth following up on for a demo.

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