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Author Topic: level or 10°  (Read 1719 times)

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Offline LeeB

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level or 10°
« on: November 19, 2017, 01:05:27 AM »
When hand filling do you hold the file level to the bar or at 10°? When would you want to do either or?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline teakwood

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 07:30:15 AM »
always level

Offline John Mc

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 08:41:57 AM »
It depends on the chain in use. I'm not sure what the difference is, but with most Oregon Chain, I use 10˚ and get a bit better results than when using 0˚.

I was getting poor results using 10˚ on another brand (I think it was Woodland Pro/Carlton?) when someone here (I think Al Smith?) suggested using 0˚. For whatever reason, that seems to work better on that brand.
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Offline Woodcutter_Mo

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 11:41:28 AM »
I usually just try hold the file level with the top of the cutter. Thats what seems to work good for me atleast. It probably depends on the chain type, I use Stihl, Husqvarna and Oregon chains only and this method seems to work fine.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 12:18:20 PM »
Interesting. Most manufacturers say to sharpen at 0°. I have two different Oregon chains that call for 10°. Just wondered if it really makes a whole lot of difference.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline bluthum

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 12:25:14 PM »
I always go with what the manufacturer recommends, it's usually on the box or bag. Sometimes it takes a bit of reading to figure it out. After screwing it up trying to remember I made notes for the 4 types of chain I have on hand and stapled it to the wall cause I always forgets. Seems to me like it does make a difference for sure.

Offline btulloh

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2017, 05:35:57 PM »
I hold the file so it mates with the existing tooth profile and go from there.  Keep the pressure straight back towards the saw.  Seems like a foolproof approach to me, once you get the hang of it.  I watch the top to see when it goes from dull to sharp and then burnish the burr off with a little maple scrap.  Right, wrong - I don't know, but my chains are sharp.
HM126

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 08:01:35 AM »
Stihl switched from 10°down to 0°level about 15 years ago. Actually they called 0°  90°.
Oregon still retains the 10° on most of their chain.

10°down on the file handle setting  is also called "offset grinding" with a bench mount chain grinder.

What that setting does to the chain's cutter is it takes the bluntness out of the underside of the top plate on the inside edge nearest the drive link tops.

The setting also makes less "hook" in the sideplate of the cutter from the "working corner" down to the gullet.
This makes a smoother more efficient cutting chain in very hard, dry or frozen wood.

As history has shown during the development of sawchain alot of breakage was prevented by going with a 10° setting.
With the strength and quality of today's chain it will be interesting to see how long this setting will stick around.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 08:07:18 AM »
Seems I remember reading on here that Oregon makes most of Husky's chains, yet Husky also recommends 0°.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline ButchC

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 08:22:03 AM »
Hold the file level,  you will have some degree of up angle anyway.  The links to pivot over when you file them due to the clearances between the drivers and the groove in the bar.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 11:24:05 AM »
Hold the file level,  you will have some degree of up angle anyway.  The links to pivot over when you file them due to the clearances between the drivers and the groove in the bar.
It's better to be low on the file handle then above level. With the handle above level a inward concave cutting edge can be created, making a weak poor cutting edge.
10° down is not enough to damage a side link unless you're using too big a file . 10° to one person might be 25° to another.
Seems I remember reading on here that Oregon makes most of Husky's chains, yet Husky also recommends 0°.
Husqvarna's filing guide will not work properly at 10° down that's why they recommend 0°
Their guide sits on the chain's  chassis at a  level position.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 01:30:31 PM »
I don't have a guide. I free hand.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Offline John Mc

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 02:05:04 PM »
Seems I remember reading on here that Oregon makes most of Husky's chains, yet Husky also recommends 0°.

Some of that may depend on whether you are using a file guide, and if so, what type. They have recommended for quite a while that you use 0˚ when using one of their guides that clips on to the file (see picture). I suspect this is because when using such a guide, it doesn't lower the file on the open side of the cutter, rather it raises it on the side nearest the side plate - which may mess up the point/corner a bit?? Most of Oregon's old directions showed 10˚ with a note saying to use 0˚ if using the guide. I've noticed that some of them are dropping the 10˚ and only showing the 0˚ with a file guide.

 
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 02:33:38 PM »
Seems I remember reading on here that Oregon makes most of Husky's chains, yet Husky also recommends 0°.

Some of that may depend on whether you are using a file guide, and if so, what type. They have recommended for quite a while that you use 0˚ when using one of their guides that clips on to the file (see picture). I suspect this is because when using such a guide, it doesn't lower the file on the open side of the cutter, rather it raises it on the side nearest the side plate - which may mess up the point/corner a bit?? Most of Oregon's old directions showed 10˚ with a note saying to use 0˚ if using the guide. I've noticed that some of them are dropping the 10˚ and only showing the 0˚ with a file guide.

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
Yeah I thought that too John until I just found this in my 066 owner's manual.
I only file free hand so I can't comment much on guides. But this afternoon I watched a video on the Husqvarna guide and see it sits level.
Here's the Stihl file guide diagram from my 066 manual.

 

 
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Offline johnny newburgh

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 08:35:03 PM »
I probably do the ten percent following original cut on chain. I try not to go too much though to avoid hitting side links. Do not know what is better though? If you have the 10% would the piece of wood chip be ejected quicker as compared to 0% or Is it just different on how it cuts into wood? The pic that was posted said go 10% on super chain? Seems to be more  for an aggressive cut

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2017, 08:47:07 PM »
I probably do the ten percent following original cut on chain. I try not to go too much though to avoid hitting side links. Do not know what is better though? If you have the 10% would the piece of wood chip be ejected quicker as compared to 0% or Is it just different on how it cuts into wood? The pic that was posted said go 10% on super chain? Seems to be more  for an aggressive cut
Johnny I learned to file at 10° handle down and I still do. Yes "Super " chain like the RS or Oregon L.P. LG would be the more aggressive chain. When I used round filed chain in speed cutting contests back in the 1970's everyone went 10° handle down.
Most aggressive is a chisel bit square ground chain which takes a whooping 45° filing downward angle. Except the handle is on top filing downwards filing into the cutting edge to eliminate burring.
I think Stihl went 0° across their chain types just to keep things simple. Plus they went from 7/32" file to a smaller 13/64" on the 3/8 to get the aggressive bite back.
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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 08:53:22 PM »
HolmenTree I've always wondered what the 10° down setting on my 511ax meant...thanks!
Boy, back in my day..

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 09:00:42 PM »
HolmenTree I've always wondered what the 10° down setting on my 511ax meant...thanks!
You're welcome 4x4, tomorrow I can dig out a article from the late 1980's that explains the off set grinding method at 10°
Stuff that Google can't find yet today on the Net
 only printed on some old magazine long before the internet.
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Offline johnny newburgh

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 09:07:56 PM »
Good info holman I think I would like to try filing down handle on top

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 09:17:10 PM »
Do not know what is better though? If you have the 10% would the piece of wood chip be ejected quicker as compared to 0% or Is it just different on how it cuts into wood?
As my Stihl diagram and instruction shows: it says filing upwards at a 10° angle on a super chain is "not necessary for cutting softwood in mild weather without frost". What the German writer meant by frost is "frozen".

The less blunt inside half of the file handle10°down cutting edge would make a smoother less impact shearing action in both soft and hard/ frozen wood.
But with much less vibration and impact on hard/frozen then a blunt even 0° filed cutting edge.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 09:22:06 PM »
Hope I explained that simple enough.
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Offline ButchC

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 09:48:34 PM »
Hope I explained that simple enough.
Not for my simple mind, I always did better with picture books,  LOL
In my prior post I meant angle down not up, obviously when the cutter rolls over slightly in the bar it has the same affect as lowering the handle on the file. I think it is a pretty fine detail. I have both filed and ground chains both 0 and 10 and took them right out and cut on the same log  and I can't tell a differance , that might change as the edge goes away? but I have never taken the experiment that far.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 10:48:55 PM »
Hope I explained that simple enough.
Not for my simple mind, I always did better with picture books,  LOL
In my prior post I meant angle down not up, obviously when the cutter rolls over slightly in the bar it has the same affect as lowering the handle on the file. I think it is a pretty fine detail. I have both filed and ground chains both 0 and 10 and took them right out and cut on the same log  and I can't tell a differance , that might change as the edge goes away? but I have never taken the experiment that far.
Thanks for the input Butch, I see what you mean which is a very good point on a worn bar. Chain rolls over in the bar groove with the pressure of the filing stroke, making a 0° level held filing stroke becoming a 10° handle down filing stroke.

You probably don't get alot of frozen wood in Ohio (not in the last 20 or so years anyways)

When I  field tested the Oregon prototype 72-73LG chain in the early 1980's. The Portland Oregon plant field engineer told me they picked our region because our severe cold winters producing frozen wood was very hard on sawchain.
He said alot of pro cutters tend to put too much aggressive angles in their cutters to keep production up but end up breaking alot of chain in frozen wood.
They learn quick to put less top plate angle from 30° to 20° to keep it cutting smoother and to an extent staying sharp longer in frozen wood.
But with a level held file  breakage still occurs with the blunt even thickness along the underside of the cutting edge which also can put a little to much hook in the sideplate.

So 10° upward filing stroke was recommended to remedy the problem eliminating some of the bluntness and preventing too much hook.

Chain companies sold alot of chain to areas around the world that cut frozen timber.
Extra dry hardwood in places like Australia can cause similar problems. But nothing breaks steel easier  then severe cold conditions.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 11:27:21 PM »
HolmenTree I've always wondered what the 10° down setting on my 511ax meant...thanks!
You're welcome 4x4, tomorrow I can dig out a article from the late 1980's that explains the off set grinding method at 10°
Stuff that Google can't find yet today on the Net
 only printed on some old magazine long before the internet.
Low and behold here I found the article stashed in my gallery. If it's too hard to read I have a better camera now and can repost tomorrow.
 

  

 
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Offline ButchC

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 08:27:58 AM »
Holmen I appreciate all the insight and experience you bring to the forum and the manner at which you present it.

I learned how to hand file when Dad had a David Bradley gear drive with 1/2" pitch chipper chain. I was young enough when he bought that saw that he carried me in one arm and the saw with the other. Few years later that was the first saw I ran, and first chain I filed. Sure is a different world hand filing today's chains that that big ole chipper chain! He never owed a file guide and I learned by watching him.  When I bought my first direct drive saw, a 10-10 Mac I soon learned that I didn't know how to file that chain whatsoever! I had to buy a new chain, look at the angles and learn. That also when I had my first file guide, that helped a lot.  Dad scoffed at the 10-10 and all direct drive saws saying they were a fad that would soon enough go away,,, LOL.
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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 11:01:04 AM »
Thanks Butch,
That was a great story you just told, someday I hope to find a old gear drive and some 1/2" pitch chain. That would be something so valuable to own.
I'm a member on a Australia chainsaw buy and sell site and I can't believe the ammount of saws new and old they have down under.  I'm keeping my eyes open for the right saw, but don't want to overdue it and start hoarding  :D
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Offline John Mc

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2017, 01:47:05 PM »
...I'm keeping my eyes open for the right saw, but don't want to overdue it and start hoarding  :D

Working hard to keep that CAD (Chainsaw Acquisition Disorder) under control?
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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »
...I'm keeping my eyes open for the right saw, but don't want to overdue it and start hoarding  :D

Working hard to keep that CAD (Chainsaw Acquisition Disorder) under control?
Yes it's not easy John,
But I never saw myself as a chainsaw collector and hope I'll never become one.
I have always bought my saws new to make a living with and usually hang onto them for decades.
The motorcycle engine saw I built 34 years ago and still own today was for play only, but it did pay for itself over the years.


I do plan over this winter and next year to sell all my Husqvarna's and a few old Stihls and Jonsereds.
My 1990s 090AV with the latest style AV handles I'll have a problem parting with along with my 1989 044AV  and 1986 064AV .
With a clean slate I'll keep my new MS261CM and hopefully have a new MS462 by next year. Even if I have to buy it from outside of North America.
The MS500 fuel injected will probably be the last saw I'll ever buy.
For a top handle battery saw I will have to keep my Husqvarna T536 LiXP for now until Stihl introduces a top handle battery saw.
One antique gear drive saw to display on my shelf that is a tough decision. Only time will decide my choice.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2017, 03:06:26 PM »
Sounds as though you've decided that for this round anyway, Stihl has jumped ahead of Husqvarna. (I have been following your 550XP vs MS261 comparison thread.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 03:19:27 PM »
Sounds as though you've decided that for this round anyway, Stihl has jumped ahead of Husqvarna. (I have been following your 550XP vs MS261 comparison thread.)
I always was a Stihl man . Only got side tracked a little over 10 years ago when my Stihl dealer sponsor was replaced by a Husqvarna dealer for my chainsaw competitions I've been organizing and running for the last 20 years.
But now my sponsor dropped Husqvarna and I'm not sure yet who my sponsor will be for my events in February 2018.
But having owned all those Husqvarna's 338XPT T536 Li XP 346XP 550XP 372XP 395XP and the 272XP I now know what I was missing in the 1990's into the 2000's.
It's good to have experience with both brands.
Now all I want is a Stihl top handle battery saw, MS261CM MS462CM and MS500 fi.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
From my experience the 10 degree works well for most chisel chains .The only exception being several "woodsman pro" chains I bought from a previous sponsor of this forum site .On those while they cut better straight across I wasn't too pleased with them  and never bought another .I should have just thrown them away because every so often I use one by mistake .It takes me about one cut to realize the error of my ways .

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2017, 06:38:13 AM »
Found this in the junkyard...

 

 

 

 

 

 
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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2017, 10:47:57 AM »
Disston"straddle" scratcher chain

Offline Duane(Pa)

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2017, 09:27:32 AM »
Interesting that they added a capital C since they were using degrees. Proof reader must have been thinking temperature not geometry?

Offline btulloh

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2017, 09:29:01 AM »
YOu don't see that every day.  What was it used for?  Besides scratching.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: level or 10°
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2017, 09:57:53 AM »
It's just a very old style of chain .Mall used a variety of same and perhaps others might have for all I know .Saw chain as other things have evolved a lot over the course of time .

I think by looking at the tooth design it was made to pull sawdust as opposed to chips because of this .I have only seen two or three examples of scratcher chain used on antiques saws ,a big Disston with a 6 foot bar and a Mall model 6 with a 4 foot bar .In spite of the fact those saws where heavy and slow they cut  at an amazing speed considering their age .


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