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Author Topic: New Toy (Tool)  (Read 5517 times)

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Offline YellowHammer

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New Toy (Tool)
« on: November 22, 2017, 09:48:09 PM »
Recently, thanks in large part from us visiting WDH and his operation, we invested in a 12" jointer/facer.  Since then, it had proven to be a very useful and profit generating machine, and paid for itself in very short order and increased the quality of our product at the same time.  Unfortunately, although it was one of the biggest sold through Grizzley, it proved too low a horsepower, (3 hp), too short a bed (about 7 foot) and too narrow (12").  So after much pro and con decision making, including deciding if we wanted to move on to a 5 head molder we decided that a bigger, more capable jointer was the best alternative.

Well, we ordered and finally got our new jointer, from Italy via Georgia.  We just couldn't find what we wanted from so called domestic companies, and this time we wanted the biggest and the baddest so we didn't have to upgrade again.  Its a SCM 20 inch long bed jointer, 70 inch infeed, 8 hp 3 phase motor, new Xylent cutterhead, and grooved table.  By the way, we sold our Grizzly 12 inch planer in 1 week, and had 3 buyers in line.  That was nice.
I looked at lots of old iron and didn't want a fix it project.
 
Here was the delivery guy and me tag teaming the crate with both the forklift and the tractor.  It's so long it needed 6 foot log forks and I only have 4 footers.  So with a little creative lifting I finally got it on the tractor forks while the Cat forklift held up the other end and the driver pulled the semi from under it.  No problems.


We got it on the ground and started uncrating. 


Chip, the company mascot, decided to jump in and help.
 

Then the wiring started, hooking it into the rotary phase converter without burning anything up.


Finally, installed, positioned and all the Cosmoline has been wiped off.  Here's the machine ready to go.  I'm excited to get working with it.

 
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Offline tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 09:50:52 PM »
A nice quality piece of equipment. Congratulations. Is this the 20 inch machine ?  Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Offline Magicman

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 10:18:14 PM »
So the Dawg's new name is now Chip Cosmoline...... :D :D

Congrats on the new Toy Tool.   smiley_thumbsup
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Offline barbender

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 12:17:11 AM »
Nice!
Too many irons in the fire

Offline caveman

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 06:53:43 AM »
Go big or go home (old saying).  Good looking machine.
Caveman

Offline Sheepkeeper

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 07:10:00 AM »
It's not ready to go until you put the guard back on - safety first! Or a power feed. Keep those fingers out of harms way.
The hurry-er I go the behind-er I get.

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2017, 07:18:56 AM »
That's nice.

Are you going to install a power feeder?
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Offline WDH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2017, 07:28:05 AM »
Wow....Wow....that is a nice machine.  Now you just need to tame a gorilla and teach it how to feed wide, 9/4 x 10' oak, hickory, and pecan slabs through it :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2017, 08:00:11 AM »
YH
Your not scared
You do it right
thomas 8013 mill ,Mahindra 3540 cab tractor loader  Dump trailer  and lot of contracting tools

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2017, 08:55:04 AM »
Chip took my guard when he saw it looked like a big pork chop. :D

Ain't no pecan ever touching this machine!  At least while the cutters are still sharp.

Its 20 inches wide, and the Xylent cutterhead is pretty impressive.  Its not like conventional spirals, its got a very extreme spiral, about twice that of my Shelix.  Supposedly it allows easier feeding and reduced noise.  I haven't run enough boards through it yet to make a call, but its pretty quiet, and when I gave it a quick test on a cherry board edge, it hogged 1/4" off in one easy pass and felt like my old one taking 1/16" or 1/8", with very little drag.  That was pretty impressive.
 
My plan is to use it as a facer for our slabs and thicker, heavier stock we are now selling, and have enough muscle to clean boards up in one pass, instead of having to repeat feed and "merry go round" them.  With the long infeed table I can lay a 10 foot slab down and it's fully supported without me having to hold it.  The plan is that boards will get faced on this machine and then go into the planer which is directly downstream.  I'm getting a roller table so I can roll them off the jointer right into the planer.  That's the plan anyway, to set it up like a Stratoplane type machine, but with better straightening and more flexibility so I can edge with it also.

I have a lot of my boards planed with 3 different companies, depending on the situation, that have a varied selection of double sided planers and molders, so I have first hand experience with their limitations.  For the majority of flattening and dressing they work very well, but a certain percentage of boards defeat them and have noticeable bow remaining in them.  So we used my Grizz jointer to fix those specific grumpy boards.  We tune up the defective boards and instead of having to sell them a reduced rates, we can charge full price.  Our old setup worked well, but was slooooow, and I can't tell you how many times I was popping the breaker on my old jointer feeding too fast or taking too much cut.

At some point I will probably remount my feeder.  They have their good and bad points.  I mounted a power feed on my other jointer and learned a lot about its limitations.  They work great for thicker stock, boards that won't flex with the roller down pressure.  So 8/4 stock works fine.  It falls apart when doing thinner, more flexible 4/4 boards where the down pressure rollers of the power feed squash the board down to the bed if the board isn't completed flattened in one pass.  However, I learned that if the jointer can take enough bite to take the bow out in one pass, then the part of the board on the outfield table where the power feeder grips is completely flat, it can't flex the board and it and will remain flat.  Basically, if the amount of bow or cup in a board is less than the depth of cut, a power feed works fine.  If the depth of cut is less than the bow or cup, then it will not work so well.  So horsepower is required.   

We will see how this works out. 
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Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2017, 09:11:19 AM »
Impressive!  I was surprised to see a pork chop.  Just assumed it would have a Euro guard.

By grooved table do you mean planed planed or something else?
Larry

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Offline tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2017, 11:09:26 AM »
Mine set up as a facer
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 01:53:06 PM »
Just want to hog wood off YH. :D :D 8)
2008 LT40 super,2008 edger, Cat telahandler, JD 5410 And can cut up to 45' long
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Offline muggs

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2017, 04:14:56 PM »
I use a Billstrum feeder on my 20 inch Oliver jointer. Works well, but I don't know if they are still in business.   Muggs

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 08:28:28 PM »
By grooved table do you mean planed planed or something else?

The tables are not smooth polished, they are circular ground and grooved.  I did some reading and this is supposed to greatly reduce the dragging force required to slide a wide board against the bed.  I have experienced this effect before, as a very smoothly faced board will suck down to a polished bed and be difficult to lift off.  All I can say is that it really seems to work, as the boards slide across the metal like they are on ice or a very highly waxed table.  A definite improvement. 
 

Surprisingly, the European guard is not offered on machines sold in the US apparently due to OSHA regulations.  I don't know why, they seem to be very effective, and I have to say that the pork chop on this thing, which is about the size of a garbage can lid, totally stinks.  The large pork chop is very cumbersome.  I will call SCM Georgia and see if they will sell me a Euro guard or maybe on of the accordion flap style pork chop.

Other than that, after running a couple hundred bdft of hard maple and cherry today in record time, all I can say is WOW, completely different league than my previous 12".  It easily took off 3/16" in one easy pass, with significantly reduced effort and noise than my previous spiral head jointer.  Its a definite one pass facer.

It also has a very balanced spring assist outfeed table, and it makes depth of cut adjustments very quick.

Just want to hog wood off YH. :D :D 8)
Yep!  As much as I can as fast as I can. 8)
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2017, 12:12:33 AM »
Tule Peak, I've looked at the Comatic and are very interested in them.  Are the feed wheels spiked or spring fingers?  What about quality of facing.  Does it take bow out?

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Offline tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2017, 09:05:40 AM »
The feed wheel uses spring loaded carbide spikes.
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Offline Joey Grimes

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 10:44:19 PM »
Very nice machine!
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2017, 11:11:38 PM »
Wow - those jointers look like aircraft carriers! 

Nice score!
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2017, 08:39:44 AM »
So I'm starting to get the feel for the machine.  Still dislike the pork chop.  However, the rest on the machine is eye opening. The finish on the surfaced face of the board is glass smooth.  No cutter marks or scalloping like some carbide spirals show.  Noticeably smoother than even my planer.  Lots of power, lots of room to work.

The jointing function is also a different world.  We have a straight line rip saw, but it was acting a little squirrley yesterday (I'll look at it today), so as customers would buy boards and want a straight edge, I switched to using the jointer, which is usually a waste of time edging rough sawn boards that may be out 1/4" or more.  However, this beast is a different animal.  The last customer of the day (of course) bought 26 poplar boards and wanted them edged one side.  So I went to the jointer, dropped the cut to 5/16" and ran the 8 footers through as fast as I could pick them up and run them.  Only 2 boards required a second pass, which means I took 5/8" off them in two passes.  Even the customer, an experienced woodworker, said "You're not supposed to be able to do that."



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Offline DR_Buck

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2017, 10:31:43 AM »
Yellow Hammer this is really a nice looking machine.   I'm not sure I would be comfortable around that longer cutter up ther on the top.   ::)

Question for you "WIDE" jointer guys.     Are you using these for facing and edging boards?     If for surface facing, how is this equipment better than a wide table planer?

From the pictures, it looks like the shop is a pole building and not temperature or humidity controlled.   For you guys that have shops like this, how do you avoid rust build up on the machine table surfaces?  It seems that waxing or coating the tops could become a effort if you have several machines with cast iron or steel tops.   I'm currently building the inside of my new shop and I am fully insulating it and then adding a mini-split heatpump to avoid rust problems.



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Offline tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2017, 12:31:11 PM »
Only facing
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2017, 04:40:39 PM »
I keep my woodwork shop in my unheated old farm barn.
I use this on the parts I don't want to rust like my table
saw top. Works great and makes the board slide so much
better.

 

 
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2017, 09:21:00 PM »
Planers are very good any taking out some surface defects like cup and erratic high spots but doesn't take out gradual defects like long, subtle bow in a board and long twist.  I've tried many times and many tricks to try to fix these issues with a planer, with little success.  Planers are best as thicknessers.

A jointer or facer on the other hand excels at this with its very long bed, and with the cutters in the bed.  The ability to regulate and position down pressure also helps.

You are right, my workshop is a pole barn, and rust can be an issue in the Spring, but not usually in the other times of year.  Spring is a problem when the nights are cold, the iron gets cold, and then in the morning the day warms up and the humidity condenses on the cold metal.  Instant rust.  The solution is simple, light bulbs.  In the Spring, I take standard automotive trouble lights, with 100W bulbs and hang them on the machines.  They gently warm the metal, so no condensation can form.  Easy fix.
   
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 06:13:37 AM »
So YH now your home all the time you let customers come during the week not just Saturdays?
2008 LT40 super,2008 edger, Cat telahandler, JD 5410 And can cut up to 45' long
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2017, 08:36:22 AM »
Not so much, but I will take occasional appointments because these are generally regular customers and only need a minimal amount of help.  Problem is, when people show up I have to shut things down because I'm the only employee here.  We are about to hit our peak season, so I have to spend a lot of time making sure we have enough wood to sell.  I tell people that I can't sell it if I don't have time to make it. ;D
 
I really like Saturdays, open the gates, and let folks flood in like a wave, and the only thing I have to do is help them.  We had a good Saturday this week and had 3 vehicles at the gate when I opened 30 minutes early.  We've had to hire two people to help us on Saturdays, a second cashier and a second yard man, so there are generally 4 of us required to keep up.  I spend a lot of my time in the shop, dressing freshly bought slabs with the Festool Track Saw, or using the SLR to edge people's 4/4 wood that they don't want to do on their table saw, and facing boards that they want to make into a table top.  Thats where these tools really pay off, customers can buy pieces of wood that they don't have the tools to take them to a digestible shape in their own shop.  So for example, I had a customer buy 4 rainbow poplar slabs for a big table ($150-$200 each) but he didn't have the equipment to strip the live edge off them and have the joints clean enough for a table quality glue joint.  So I cut the edges with the Tracksaw (slow but effective), faced the skip planed slabs on the SCM (one pass), and than ran them through the planer.  We put the edged pieces on the forks of the Cat for a flat surface, and they all slid together and the joints disappeared.  He was happy and it only took a few minutes for us to do it, he would have spent a day on it.
For typical 4/4 boards we charge by the bdft for both planing and straight lining.  Customers don't have to use our service, but its there if they want it.
 
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2017, 11:53:50 AM »

Question for you "WIDE" jointer guys.     Are you using these for facing and edging boards?     If for surface facing, how is this equipment better than a wide table planer?


A jointer is used to flatten a board, whereas a planer is used to dimension a board.  A planer will usually not flatten out a board; ie if you put a cupped or twisted board in you will get a cupped or twisted board out (albeit at the same thickness).

Most of the time I use my 25" Oliver jointer-planer.  It makes it fast and easy because it does both sides in one pass.  With my 16" jointer, I use a power feed on the outfeed table.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2017, 05:49:06 AM »
It can be hard to get things done when customers show up.
I have had days when I only cut one log. But, My pockets are full of $$$$$$. :D :D :D
2008 LT40 super,2008 edger, Cat telahandler, JD 5410 And can cut up to 45' long
http://www.forestryforum.com/sanbornton     NH Timberland Owners Association supporter.
And a license NH soft wood grader.
Sawing since 1987

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2017, 05:56:35 AM »
Those tools are PAINFUL expensive, but worth every penny. (I have a Felder version).
Being able to joint big stock is a boom to customers/woodworkers for sure.

Most mills I've seen, just jam it into an old piece of big iron, stripping off the material (mega tear out).

The spiral insert cutters are a near-necessity for figured material.

Nice score on a nice machine! Congrats!
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2017, 07:53:54 AM »
What do you guys do about the hub cap sized pork chop?  I've contacted SCM and they are looking for alternatives.
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2017, 10:29:08 AM »
Wow, awesome machine... being able to take that much off in one pass is impressive to say the least.

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2017, 06:11:56 PM »
Felder uses a totally different version: it's a smaller version that covers the cutter and you adjust in/out according to the size material you're working with.
Works ok, but requires manual input.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2017, 09:31:52 PM »
I'm using a bridge guard (Euro guard).  I love it for edging as I can adjust it to put a little pressure against the board to hold it tight to the fence.  Took a long time to get used to it for facing and still not completely comfortable with it.  I think maybe because I used a porkchop most of my life.  My guard is the standard one (cheap) for a 12 jointer.  I would think with your 20 machine you would want one of the segmented styles.  Suva makes one I drool over.
Larry

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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2017, 10:55:43 PM »
I contacted SCM, they said the euro style guard satrts at $1,3000.  Ouch.  They've never seen the segmented pork chop, except for the video I sent them. 
I'll start looking aftermarket. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2017, 07:39:07 AM »
Yep. I have the Euro style one and it's good, but I can't say that I like it more or less than the porkchop style on my older machine.

Felder got better when they made a segmented one. Otherwise, when it's retracted (set for wide material) it gets in your way, or your gut.
The Euro machines are precision and brilliant. It takes owning one to understand.

Congrats on yours, Yellow. It's a fine machine, indeed!  8)
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2017, 09:05:18 PM »
Congratulations on a fine machine.

I, too, have a serious disdain for the porkchop guards on large jointers.  Hard to walk around without hitting your hip all day long.  Not too good for the lower back, either.

If you want to look at different guards, I have a Surty guard on my 16" jointer that can be adjusted to act like a bridge guard.  The board passes right under it without moving it.  Nothing to dodge.

Anyways, great machine, and congrats again.  Soon, you'll be wanting a 30" facer for those big slabs! :D
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2017, 07:17:54 AM »
I need to load up a trailer load of slabs and visit you  ;D
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 07:53:46 AM »
Heck yeah, road trip.  Come on up.

I'm still very impressed with the features on this jointer and don't understand why some weren't on my previous machine.  For example, the grooved machined tables seem to make a real difference in drag in the board.  My straight line rip saw has the same grooves, and its also obviously intended to reduce drag.  Why don't all the machines have this?  It seems simple enough to manufacture. 

Also, the Xylent cutter head is simply amazing.  I've had a small two knife butterhead on a Jet jointer, and also a Byrd copy on the Grizzly.  This one literally cuts a glass smooth finish, and it actually makes the boards a little difficult to grip, which seems ridiculous, but both my wife and I noticed it.

I also immediacy noticed the adjustment knob for the out feed table is small and hidden, and not stuck out in the open like my previous two jointers.  I never understood this, once I had them dialed in, I always had to tell people who used them, "Don't touch the outfeed knob".   This machines outfield adjustment is intentionally tucked out of sight and away from peoples hands.

Also, this is the first tool I have gotten that was completely adjusted when it came for the factory.  I went over the measurements and surprisingly didn't have to adjust anything.  What a refreshing experience.

When I bought the machine, I immediately received a letter from the SCM group in the US, with a complete list of names and points of contact, including a customer care representative who would answer any and all inquiries.  I have tested this when I asked for the newer guard, and I noticed the emails I sent were responded to immediately with information, or forwarded to others with information soon following.  What kind of a company are they running, where they actually seem to want to help customers after the sale?? 
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 09:36:33 AM »
What kind of a company are they running, where they actually seem to want to help customers after the sale??

That is indeed, a rarity. Kudos to them!
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2017, 12:08:45 PM »
That's one fine piece of equipment.
Two LT70s and to much other support equipment to mention.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2017, 09:22:09 AM »
I finally decided to "fix" my pork chop.  I got tired on hitting it with my hip and having to lean over so far to get around it.  So I did a little surgery with a saw and cut the protruding edge.  This way I am protected for the narrower boards and I'm going to buy another pork chop for the wide ones. 





I am still amazed at how flat the machine faces boards.  A couple days ago, after stacking up a thousand bdft of kiln dried rough sawn walnut to send to the planer, we pulled the ugliest ones, i.e. ones with zig zag, warp, twist, cup, bow, ones we knew we were going to hand work when they came back.  So we decided to shortcut that, and face these cull boards while they are still at maximum thickness so I could take as much as possible off to try to correct them.  I wanted to see if it is reasonable to work them rough sawn, one cut and without an unreasonable amount of effort.  With my older jointer, I would have had to take three passes, two at the minimum, to get to max correctable cut before I couldn't plane the other side and get a 3/4" inch board.  So I set the SCMi machine for 3/16" depth of cut, and wanted to only make one pass to try to get a flat side.  We then went from the jointer directly into the planer, assembly line fashion, and stacked the boards.  We were both very surprised and impressed as to how flat the boards were, and can be sold as full length.  I still don't understand why it doesn't take much effort to take such deep cuts.  Its amazingly easy to push the boards while hogging.  Is it the new style cutter head?  Is it because its such a large diameter cutter?  Is it the grooved bed?  I don't know, but I did all these boards and my back didn't hurt.  You can see how flat they are laying on the cart.   


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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2017, 06:32:38 PM »
looks good.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2017, 06:54:44 PM »
How about some more info on your cart?
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2017, 07:17:38 PM »
I bought a cart just like it from Harbor Freight. Very handy 8)    Muggs

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2017, 10:50:50 PM »
How about some more info on your cart?
Yeah, it's a HF hydraulic rolling lift table with the handle removed.  These types of lift carts are great for stacking and rolling around relatively large amounts of wood.  No more bending over, just reach down and grab a board off the stack in the cart.  When the stack goes down and you have to bend over, pump the hydraulic lever with your foot, and the whole stack comes back up where you want it. 
These are also great as height adjustable out feed tables for planers, table saws and our straight line rip. 
For this operation, we drove the pallet of wood into the shop next to the jointer infeed with the forklift.  The boards come off the forklift into the jointer and then fed directly into the planer by the jointer operator.  As the board comes out of the planer, another person gets the boards and inspects them and dresses the ends with the chop saw if necessary and then places them on the roller table.  When everything is done, the forklift is used to lift all the boards off the roller table and carry them to the shelves where they are stocked.  If the stack gets too high, hit the hydraulic release and the table drops down to a more comfortable position. 
These little roller tables are very useful.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 07:42:58 AM »
I use one at the outfeed of my planer for the thick heavy slabs.  Thru the planer, on to the hydraulic roller table, roll back around to front of planer for the next pass, etc.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2017, 12:39:17 AM »
Nice!

Know you just need a real planner to match the jointer! Something like this:
Just be prepared to dig deep in you wallet 



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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2017, 06:57:45 AM »
My material goes to some Amish dudes (no joke) who have a jointer/planer combo...hitch is, that is does BOTH in one pass! Joints and then planes 2 sides. It's awesome.  :o

I have to look at the brand next time I'm there. It's mighty impressive no doubt, at like 30" wide.  :D
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2017, 08:02:29 AM »
Sounds like an Oliver Strait-o-plane.
For a blast from the past, a facer, this is another way of face jointing lumber, scroll down the pics and notice the spring loaded fingers for the feed chain
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=27973

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2017, 09:39:43 AM »
Thankfully, I don't have to plane a lot of my wood.  I used to, but I was spending too much time planing.  So I cut a deal with a local mill work shop and now I carry a trailer load of of my kiln dried rough sawn wood to get planed most every week.



My wood gets run through three different types of machines.  One is an old Stratoplane and it does not take out long bow of 4/4 boards, which is critical for our customers.  Another is a nice Pinheiro multihead and it won't take long bow out of long boards, either.  I also get wood planed from a place that has a high end two sided planer, I'm not sure of the model and make, but it keeps 3 off bearers busy.  I have no idea how much to cost, but it must have been very high.  It does petty well, but I have the feeling it cost more than my house.  I pay each of these places a surfacing fee so I don't have to use my planer for bulk planing anymore, mostly for the smaller 1,000 bdft and under jobs.

Due to this out sourcing, I get a real good idea of the limitations of some of these machines, old and new. 

So as these loads come back planed to 15/16", and we stock the shelves, we pull these boards that have noticeable board length bow and generally have to hand work them to 3/4" to make them flat, if possible.  The long boards are flexible so I haven't seen anything yet that can feed the boards and not flex them down to the bed.

I highly considered one of these, but didn't see how this would be any better than what is being used already.



I almost bought one of these, an automatic facer, with a rubber fingered carpet to gently hold the wood, but, it s true import and service was going to be an issue.  Its a copy of an older facer, and I'd never seen one run to compare results.


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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2017, 10:22:37 AM »
Unfortunately, I haven't actually seen one of the sock feeders Tule Peak has, but I've been very interested in them.
I'm not sure how gentle the finger contact would and how much downpressure it imparts, if it would flex down an 8 foot board, 4/4 board. 
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Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2017, 01:32:57 PM »
I think your being too critical about bow.  Not many projects even use a 8' long board.

A little bow in a 4/4 board shouldn't mean much to most woodworkers.  When I look around I see most desks and tables have aprons.  Cabinets and shelving units have face frames.  Moulding gets nailed to wavy walls.  All are methods to pull bow out during assembly. 

Than there are glue up techniques that can straighten a panel.

Of course rails, stiles, panels, and drawer fronts need to be perfectly flat.  That's why we closely scrutinize the raw boards as to where they go in a project.

Cup is the scourge, followed closely by twist.  Those defects have to be corrected before use.  Bow in anything thicker than 4/4 also becomes a larger problem but its easier to correct.
Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2017, 03:16:07 PM »
I agree, but our customers don't, and it's been a painful lesson for us over the years.  We had to do a bit of soul searching for this investment, but in the end, we figured we had no real alternative.  We sell high grade boards, we charge a fair price, and our customers pay it.  However, it's difficult to convince somebody who is paying $30 to $50 dollars per board to buy a bowed one if there is a stack of dead straight boards next to it on the rack.
 
Just yesterday, we a had decent sale$ to a customer who was standing in line to check out say to a buch of other customers that he got what he wanted and didn't have to buy a single crooked board, and then he thanked us for our high level of quality.  Made us feel good.  Unfortunately, what we have learned is that if we have a stack of straight boards on the rack, and a few bowed ones, then most customers will almost always push the bowed boards to the side and grab the flat one.  Only as a last resort will they purchase a bowed or otherwise defective board.  By the end of the day, all we have on the racks are stacks of mostly bowed or otherwise not great, boards, as the customers have essentially cherry picked.  I can't blame the customers, all things being equal, straighter is better.  Back a few years ago, we would half the board, or quarter it, to reduce the bow, but again customers would still select straight vs defective.  So we would have to deeply discount the bowed boards and try to sell them, but that was problematic and hurt our bottom line.   That's also when we learned what everyone says, that a single sided planer will not flatten a board. ::), no matter how much we tried, at least with any production speed, anyway.  So we invested in the "smaller 12" jointer, began to cut them in half and face them, or try to clean them up full length, or whatever.  More than once, I'd take a full length bowed board, or one with a single knot in it that has been the rack for a couple sale days, cut the knot out, or half the board, straighten it out on the jointer, and it would shortly sell at full price.

We used to have a hardwood store about 40 miles from us that would not let customers pick, and if they did, would charge them extra.  They eventually went out of business.  While they were open, I could usually tell when one of those customers was inbound by the way they were driving, mad as a hornet, and throwing up a cloud of gravel dust.  Also invariably, their first question was, "will you let me pick out my own **!!!** boards?!  So all I had to say was "Sure, why not, they're all fine," and instant new customer.

As you mention, the other reason for this jointer is to flatten our thicker slabs with less effort.  Very few customers will pay $300 for a bowed, cupped or twisted slab.  Our planer does OK but this SCMi machine will flatten a slab to "cast iron" perfect.  Amazing what it will do.  I used to have to do it on the sawmill after it was dried, no more, thankfully. 

Due to their new machine, the word has spread, and we are now are having customers start showing to face and joint their boards for them, some bought other places.  Many have only a table saw to straighten an edge, some the usual 6" or 4" jointers and are struggling with them.  50 cents per bdft for me to face and plane their boards, 50 cents per bdft to joint their boards, and not only are they happy, but they generally become a new customer. 
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Offline Ed_K

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2017, 04:55:36 PM »
 YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 07:10:48 PM »
Bow in boards is a killer.  My customers will not buy bowed boards, either.  The jointer is invaluable, and like Robert says, you can cut a bowed board in half, face joint it flat, plane it flat, and sell it at full price.  I am referring to boards only 3' to 4' long.  They sell if they are flat.  If not, they don't sell and I am constantly handling them. 
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Offline Don P

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 08:15:52 PM »
Is it worth gluing them into panels, alternate bow then face joint/plane

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 09:06:04 PM »
YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that when straightening pallet quantities of kiln dried, slightly bowed, cupped or curved slabs where the band does more skimming and light cutting than full kerf cutting, the tooth set will be removed from the bottom side of the band after several cuts, maybe a dozen slabs or so depending on species, although everything appears to be fine.  So while the band is still sharp, burying the band in the cut, full kerf, is not a problem and for the first dozen or so clean up cuts everything goes very well.  Skim it, cut it, slice it, no problem, flat as a pancake.

However, after top skimming a bunch of slabs, if the band ever needs to dig in full kerf, full width, disaster! The band will dip down, and dive into the cut like a porpoise on the bow wave of the Calypso and ruin the slab.  Basically, the band will behave like a band that is not only dull and has also lost its set on only one side, which is exactly what has happened.  Ouch!!

The solution is to change the band out more often, which I only seems to do after I've had a massive dive.

I wish I had never sold my LT15, because if I hadn't there would be an MP100 planer sitting on it.  I think that would be perfect. 
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2017, 10:56:11 PM »
Is it worth gluing them into panels, alternate bow then face joint/plane
I don't know, haven't tried that.  Some people might buy the ready made panels. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2017, 06:12:48 AM »
If WM makes an MP200 (for LT15 wide), I'll order one today!  8)
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2017, 09:47:41 PM »
In a way YH I do the same here, I don't sell shorter than 8'. I cut and stick right off the mill. When a customer comes to get lumber They will not buy bowed lumber. I cull it when we go through the stack. If I can run it through the edger and fix it I will. Sometimes a board might have a split in it.
I give it to the customer for free. They can get a 2 to 4' piece out of it.
They love that, saves me from chipping it.  :D :D
So If it's a $50 piece or a $10 piece it has to be straight. :D :D ;)
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2017, 12:07:21 AM »
So If it's a $50 piece or a $10 piece it has to be straight. :D :D ;)
Yep. 
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 04:40:02 PM »
YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that when straightening pallet quantities of kiln dried, slightly bowed, cupped or curved slabs where the band does more skimming and light cutting than full kerf cutting, the tooth set will be removed from the bottom side of the band after several cuts, maybe a dozen slabs or so depending on species, although everything appears to be fine.  So while the band is still sharp, burying the band in the cut, full kerf, is not a problem and for the first dozen or so clean up cuts everything goes very well.  Skim it, cut it, slice it, no problem, flat as a pancake.

However, after top skimming a bunch of slabs, if the band ever needs to dig in full kerf, full width, disaster! The band will dip down, and dive into the cut like a porpoise on the bow wave of the Calypso and ruin the slab.  Basically, the band will behave like a band that is not only dull and has also lost its set on only one side, which is exactly what has happened.  Ouch!!

The solution is to change the band out more often, which I only seems to do after I've had a massive dive.

I wish I had never sold my LT15, because if I hadn't there would be an MP100 planer sitting on it.  I think that would be perfect. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you are taking the set out of the bottom teeth of the blade than it should climb in the next full cut. Since it would be taking more kerf above the blade then below it. Just my logic.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 06:45:10 PM »
Jake, I see your point, but all I know is the band dives badly once it's submerged and even has that joyful little extra bonus cup in the center of the boards to take even a little extra out.  My 2 3/8" thick piece of wood turns into 1 3/4" in a hurry with a little smoke in the kerf to boot because it's pulling down so hard.

I wish it would rise in the cut and not butcher my stuff.  That would be ideal.   

The mill cuts fine with green wood, or at the beginning of a slab trimming session.  Thing is, something is damaging the band because last time I tried, I attempted to finish the session just edging some of the live edge slabs, and even then, with very narrow edge cuts, it was up and down to the point I had to clean them up on the track saw.

Good thing is, I don't have to do it anymore, I may leave this one up to the pros.   8)

I've got a load of hard maple slabs coming out of the kiln in a couple weeks, I may run a few skims and take some photos when she goes under, and see what you guys think. 

It's got me curious, has nobody else seen this behavior when Slab Skimmin more than a dozen or so? It's happened to me repeatedly. 
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Offline Don P

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 09:12:15 PM »
its just like a chain, or circle blade, the sharp side cuts faster so it starts an ever tightening arc as it "beats" the dull side. All of a sudden you're spiraling the drain. I got that little cup 1" deep with the slabbing bar last week before I just couldn't use brute force and ignorance any more   :D. I've done it with the lucas skimming too.

As a laterally unsupported beam (your blade) fails, the compression edge buckles sideways, out of plane, that is the cup. The race between cutting sides determines which way the beam buckles.

Offline WDH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 09:37:09 PM »
I have not had a big problem with it.  But, I never do more that 8 or ten at a time.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2017, 02:36:24 AM »
I've never done very many either, so I have never experienced what Robert is. What Don P is saying makes some since.
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Offline Jemclimber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2017, 09:06:34 AM »
Has anyone ever used a carbide tipped blade on a sawmill to use exclusively for jointing? I don't do production work, but I would really like to joint wide boards occasionally. I have a 20" planer, but haven't had great luck with a large sled.  I've done it with hand planes and with a router sled, but it sure is time consuming and makes lots of chips, shavings, and dust.  For the little amount that I do, a carbide blade used exclusively for jointing on my mill is much cheaper than a 20" jointer and takes up much less space.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2018, 08:02:37 PM »
How is the new toy doing now that you have a little time on it?
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2018, 12:08:34 AM »
Better than I had hoped.  I still hate the guard.  I've run several thousand bdft through it. 

Here's some walnut a couple days ago.  This is one reason I got it.  These boards were twitchy with a lot, too much, sapwood which really pulls the boards, and since they were high value, I knew through experience if I ran them through a conventional two sided, I would have about a 30% sapwood bow rate, and would mean cutting that many boards in half to flatten enough to sell.  So I had a little extra time on my hands and ran every one of these 8 footers through the jointer.  I was able to flatten them all out except two, which I had to cut in half.  A huge increase is quality.   


I decided to shallow up the cut for a few boards to get a feel for the board wave and actually see where the machine was taking off.  That's what these boards show, exactly where they were being faced, and how flat they were coming out.  This is after a shallow first pass and you can see the dips and dives that were being shaved.  Of course, most times, I set it for a single deep 3/16 pass, but I was just playing and learning.  This was an unusually high movement stack of walnut, due to the sapwood, and most times it's much flatter than this out of the kiln.  However, this was one reason I bought this machine, to turn poop into gold, and when I got done with it, these guys were as flat as a pancake. 



Of course the main reason I bought it was for slab flattening, and for this it just excels.

 




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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2018, 12:12:55 AM »
It is a hassle for sure, but it gives me great pleasure and makes me proud to offer boards that are 15/16" to a minimum of 7/8" thick, planed, and flat.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 06:29:45 AM »
Thanks for the update.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 07:45:26 AM »
Yellow,

Being that it's a lot of manual labor to push a pile like that through, are you considering a power feeder for the jointing ops? Also, I'm curious what the difference in the retail value and sales timeline is once you flatten/plane them vs leaving them as-is?

I appreciate your business model in catering to the retail buyer and struggle to find better ways myself!! smiley_clapping

I don't know of any retailers locally doing it, saving WoodCraft, and they usually only have a VERY small amount at a VERY high ticket.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 09:10:21 AM »
You are right, this took a few hours and its not something I want to do too often, and would have only considered doing with a high value wood.  The interesting thing abiout this machine is that with the cutter head and the grooved bed, the pushing effort is only a fraction of what it took me with my other jointer.  So instead of feeling like I had been run over by a truck, I wasn't even tired, and felt good enough to play around with it awhile.  My other jointer was the most hated tool in my shop, lots of effort but required because it was the only way get the quality I wanted.  Hated it, but had to use it.  This thing is a whole different class, easy to use and does a much better job.  I wouldn't have believed it was that much better than my old one.

Yes I am definitely considering a power feed, but since I installed a Powermatic on my old machine, I at least got to see the issues with one.  I'm shopping around, but the Comatic dedicated jointer feeder with metal feeder fingers seems to be the best choice.  However, I have seen the limitations of a conventional rubber tire power feeder on a jointer, so I'm not convinced if I install it, I can still get the high quality flat lumber with the habitually troublesome boards.

Everything must have a business balance, i.e. is it worth it?  Hand flattening a thousand bdft of walnut took several hours, and there is a cost and effort associated with that.  Its not something I would do routinely, but I'm still learning this machine and it was cold outside, so why not?  On the other hand, it would have taken me just slightly less time to have to go through already planed, but bowed, lumber and flatten and dress the bad actors.  Especially since our normal initial skip planing process removes a lot of meat that I can used to joint off and still have thick boards.  So I'm still working thorough the $$ and cents, but as to your question of turn around, specifically, this pack of lumber came out of the kiln, was jointed Wednesday, straight lined Thursday, trimmed and about half of it sold yesterday.  Thats a couple day processing turnaround of $2,800 gross.  Straight and long sells.  Bowed doesn't.
 
Our normal process is takes about two weeks when wood comes out of a kiln, includes unsticking, banding, trucking to our outsource planer, leaving for a week, trucking back and then straightening.       
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 07:34:50 PM »
So are you sawing it 4/4 and still getting 7/8" boards? After you flatten one side do you run the other side through a planer so you get a consistent thickness?
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 09:14:21 PM »
When I cut a board in half because of bow, as in cutting a 10' board into two 5' pieces, I flatten one side on the jointer.  This sometimes takes two passes on the jointer,  Then, the board is run through the planer to plane the other side.  The majority of them still plane out to 15/16", but a portion have to be taken down to 7/8" thick.  This is on stock that was sawed green a 1 1/8" thick then kiln dried, so there is some shrinkage in thickness from the kiln drying. 
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 10:11:28 PM »
With the longer bed of this jointer, I can now flatten out almost 1/4" bow on a rough sawn 4/4 over 8 feet and then plane down to 3/4".  if the boards are worse, then I do as WDH and bring them to 7/8".  Either way, straight as an arrow. 

On boards that were skip planed to 15/16" I don't have a lot of meat to play with anymore, so I typically cut them in half and plane.  That's why wanted to play with these rough sawn walnut boards, I could experiment with the jointer and still end up with a pile of straight 8 foot walnut.  Kill two boards with one stone.

Speaking of jointing long boards, I seem to get a much better result with the middle of the bow down to the bed as opposed to what I thought was the more conventional crown up technique.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2018, 05:54:12 AM »
It makes a difference to savvy buyers. Time and again I see larger lumber butchers jamming twisted/warped material through a big industrial planer, only to get thinner twisted/warped material out the other end.

Double-jeopardy since not only does it fail to remedy the issue, but now you have that much less to work with when attempting to fix it.   :-X

Yellow, something struck me curious yesterday when I was reading this thread. You mentioned that you have a line-up at your planer the other day. Isn't your material all planed already, prior to buyers making selections? Or, is this to plane it to final thickness?  Also, do you offer SLR of your material? As a lumber USER also, I'd always pay the extra to have my material straight-lined or even better yet, edged both sides. Even though I have the equipment to do it, it sure is a savings in the shop.

Again, it's back to the material handling issue. The Amish outfit I use is really setup for it. They can do it in 1/4 the time, they deal with the waste, and I can focus on higher-value ops. Win:win!

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Offline WDH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2018, 07:41:46 AM »
I believe that it is the same case for Yellowhammer, but for me, I plane to 15/16" so that the customer can get a good look at the features of the board, i.e. grain, color, etc.  Usually, both sides are cleaned up, but sometimes one side has some skips.  If they do not have a planer and want the board finished planed to 3/4, 7/8, etc., or if they want one edge jointed, or both, I charge for that.  The initial planing is on me, the final planing is on them.  For each valued added step, planing, jointing, ripping, I add 50 cents per BF. 

At the sawmill and wood room, I do not have the ability to rip boards to finished width.  I have to take them to my shop which is over 1/2 mile away.  That is a real pain in the butt log.  With the new lumber room, I plan to put a tablesaw in there so that I can plane, joint, and rip all at the same location.

One thing that I have learned.  Short boards sell.  The 3' stuff can sell as fast as the 8' or 10' stuff.  5' is a very good seller.  Almost every customer that is buying a board first picks it up and sights down the board to see if it is straight.  Of course, I also do the very same thing  :).   
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
Thanks for the replies gents
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2018, 09:27:48 AM »
We don't sell rough sawn, all our 4/4 lumber is initially skip planed to 5/16" and our 8/4 gets brought down to 2" using one of three places that each have industrial planers or molders.  We produce way too much for us to do ourselves, along with all the other stuff we have to do, and I typically carry a trailer load to get planed on Friday while I return with the load I carried up last week.  So about every week we have a 25 foot trailer load of fresh lumber to work with, and I get a real good idea as to the limitations of these machines, when we handle and sort the boards when we stock the shelves.  Boards that are aren't right, have wane, bow, curve or other defects get pulled and put on "work" pallets for us to clean up later.  These boards are the ones we hand work, and which we try to minimize.  So we use our SLR, planer, jointer, and chop saw to get them right and back win the rack at at full price.  Here's the weekly quantity, more or less, that we plane and get back every week or so.  Even a relatively small percentage of these boards being culls adds up quick in lost profit.

 

Since we have the tools, and are in pretty good practice, we offer any and all of the the services to further dress and clean up the skip planed boards as the customer wants for a fee.  For example, if a customers wants to pay for it, we can produce them final, flat, edged 4S boards they can take home and use when they pull into their shop.  Its up to them.  The most common request is to use the SLR to put a joint quality edge on the boards or use the planer to bring the 15/16" down to 3/4".  One comment I get all the time is that our tools, since they are dialed in and typically higher quality, can produce much better surfaces and edges than the homeowner tools that many of our customers have.  So even if they have the tools they still want us to do it.  Snipe is a common problem with homeowner planers, and some customers (I had one this weekend) want us to finish plane their wood just because our planer doesn't waste wood by sniping.
 
PA, you mention value added services, and thats exactly what we try to provide to separate us from "everyone" else.  Imagine you were a novice woodworker, and the owner of the business (me) asks you what you were going to use the wood for, and you said a nice table for your family but were nervous about getting a flat surface and good joints, and I said, for a small fee, I'd face your boards on the jointer to make them cast iron flat, plane them all to the same thickness, then joint the edges so they will fit together perfect?  And do it while you watch in about 10 minutes?  Happens to us all the time, and when when the customer sees the results they always break into a big smile and become regular customers. 
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Offline woodworker9

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 10:05:49 AM »
I love the discussion of this thread, and also love seeing you guys talk about doing it the right way.

The largest supplier of hardwood lumber in the Chicagoland area sells millions of board feet of hardwoods, softwoods, plywood, and moldings.  You can't mention wood around here without hearing about a story from this place.

They do NOT own a jointer, and you can literally stand at the doorway to the mill shop, and watch in horror as a guys with lumber carts filled with rough sawn lumber stand and feed their lumber through a planer without ever flattening it. 

Half their boards on the showroom are warped and twisted, and all planed to 13/16" (4/4) so there's nothing left to fix it.

I only buy my plywood there.

Most novice woodworkers around here can't understand why their joinery and glue-ups all stink.  They think it's something they are doing wrong, when in reality, trying to do good work with poorly milled lumber is almost impossible.

Great thread.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2018, 07:32:24 AM »
So here is why we bought this machine.  We pulled the nastiest, crookedest warped live edge slabs of concrete hard, hard rock maple out of the kiln this week.  We knew these were terrible, so we've been avoiding having to deal with them.  You can tell from my wife's expression during the deadstacking how we felt about these uglies.  A couple times I threatened to throw a match to them.



Well, we fired up the big boy and stated facing.  It goes fairly easy, with 8 footers, once the slab gets on the deck, it never has to come off until its done.  Set the cutters, slide the slab forward, drop the cutters, slide it back and repeat until its done.  The SCMi really shines at this with the quick change depth of cut mechanism.
I did a half dozen reasonably quick, taking lots of meat off some.  One 19" slab in particular was three passes at 3/16".  The motor never had a problem, and hardly grunted.  I on the other hand, was having to push pretty hard as I was taking off nearly 1/4" per pass, and wasn't in the best of moods dealing with this load.  However, the results speak for themselves, the boards coming out flat as a pancake. Here's one with the flat side up, ready to run through the planer.  At least I won't have to burn them now.

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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2018, 08:40:43 AM »
Love the idea of the power adjustable table ....
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Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2018, 11:32:52 AM »
Still no guard?  Easy to catch a sleeve or something important.  Two or three slabs you can get away with it, a big stack.........

A decent fabricator could make a workable bridge guard in under four hours.

Thinking of your safety, I apologize if out of line.
Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2018, 11:48:49 AM »
Larry , you are 100% correct.
       My guard has been hanging on the wall for 10 years :-X :-X :-X :-X
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2018, 01:04:29 PM »
Yes, it is something I need to do.  I need to look at the parts list and see if I can make one.  Time to do a little research.  However, since the fence is so easy and quick to adjust, I move it until the wood covers the cutters with almost no exposure. 
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2018, 10:27:29 AM »
Is that a blast gate sticking out of the front of the machine, right below where the guard should be?  Do you ever catch your pants on it, it seems like it would be in the way.

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2018, 12:11:10 PM »
Whoa! That is some gnarly hard maple, for sure!  :o

I noticed it has a lot of heartwood in it. Do buyers care much? How do you deal with it vs. all sap?
Curious, as any maple with heart AT ALL here, might as well be flooring.  >:(
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2018, 12:52:22 PM »
Yes for sure, this is garbage wood.  This mess has way too much heartwood, too much wave, too much pith, too much knots, and too much everything else.  It's value will be only be what I can clean up and make of it, since it is 8/4+ it will have value.  If it was 4/4, I couldn't sell it for firewood.  This is one of the lessons I've learned along the way, and one of the important aspects of some of the discussions on how to mill crack free, stress free, quality boards instead of junk.  Every now and then there is a discussion of sawing technique and quality of boards, and this is an excellent example of how important proper milling technique is, and what happens when a mill incorrectly, but with production speed, slicing a log like cheese with improper technique, and ruining the wood.  I would never have sawn it this way.  I bought this from a guy, who bought it from an Amish circle mill, for a very low price.  In our constant quest for log and lumber sources, this was a test run and they got an F, and I got a D for paying for it.  I thought I knew how bad it was when I bought the slabs, but it was worse.  That's why I considered torching it.  Done and gone.  Can't do that, though, there is some good wood in there, somewhere.

Customers will buy nice slabs, with sapwood and heartwood in the same piece, if it looks good.  If it looks bad, it is unsellable, so we straightline rip the good white wood and sell it as edged 8/4 which sells very well.  A case of a better, smaller, more presentable cut from a nasty piece will bring significantly more money than the entire piece if left to look like junk.  Of course, the increased price and must cover the extra cost of labor, as well as the verbal pain caused by my wife, Martha, the CFO, asking if I had gotten the stupid out of my system that I must have had when I bought this.  ::) Slabs are hard work, and dressing them is even harder.  First step, cry.  Next step flatten, next step, plane, next step, salvage the good out of them, next step put on the price and sell them. 

The little metal thing is not a blast gate, it's a hoist or lifting bumper.  When the machine was shipped, its purpose was to keep the lifting straps away from the paint job, and was supposed to be removed.  However, since I will run my legs into it, as you observed, (good catch) I have left it in there a safety piece so that it will force me to stand a suitable distance away from the table and will also be more aware of the cutter and my distance to it.  A useful reminder. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2018, 07:41:39 AM »
Don't be too hard on yourself. The lure of low/easy money appeals to us all. Amish circle mills are a great example of this...plenty of them around here. They BLAZE out the material, with little thought to quality or end-product. Been there, done that.  :-\

Hard maple also a SOB to dry properly--keeping it white and straight is daunting, even for the best kiln ops. I handle a fair amount of maple (high grade, figured) so have also been there done that. Always on fluted sticks, try to saw on dry days and get a fan on it asap. Want that surface dry--like yesterday. Still, not always successful.

I have some very high grade hard maple I just sawed 8/4. Was even thinking 12/4, but my nerves wouldn't endure.  :D Have some really awesome WIDE 8/4 curly/blistered hard maple, sawed over the summer, which is on sticks, awaiting kiln. Pretty stuff...I actually did an Asian drying trick of standing on end for a couple weeks before getting it onto sticks!!  :D
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2018, 08:34:27 AM »
 Yellow Hammer, can you explain how the maple should have been sawed. So I can learn, I'm cutting maple to thin the orchard and would like to saw some of it. I'm thinking of keeping the butt logs as they have been tapped. Most trees taken down are 12" to 16" dbh. Mill will only pay pallet on these but sell as character wood.
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2018, 07:34:32 PM »
Ed
When ever I get tap hole maple it sells the day I mill it
thomas 8013 mill ,Mahindra 3540 cab tractor loader  Dump trailer  and lot of contracting tools

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2018, 10:23:56 PM »
Yellow Hammer, can you explain how the maple should have been sawed. So I can learn, I'm cutting maple to thin the orchard and would like to saw some of it. I'm thinking of keeping the butt logs as they have been tapped. Most trees taken down are 12" to 16" dbh. Mill will only pay pallet on these but sell as character wood.

A good way to get a mix of high quality live edge 8/4 and 4/4 wood from maple is to cut light to get into the sapwood with about a 6 inch clear face, then drop to mill a 4/4  (1 1/8") board to edge later.  Then take two 1 1/8" drops (2 3/8" including blade kerf when using Accuset) to get an 8/4 double live edge slab.  Depending on the log size, take a second.  Stay well away from the heartwood on maple.  Then rotate 180. Then another 4/4 board and then take an 8/4 live edge slab or two again.  The 4/4 boards will be the highest quality in the log because they are shallow sidewood, and the thicker slabs will be stable because they are taken from the prime part of the log, far enough from the heart to be stable, but wide enough to be high value.  Then rotate the remaining fully edged recangular cant 90 to its narrow edge, and take 4/4 or 8/4 edged boards down to the pith and do it again from the other side.  Try to get pure sapwood boards or pure heartwood boards.

The nice thing about this pattern is there are usually only two 4/4 boards to edge per log, the first two ones before the live edge 8/4 slabs, and each log will provide 2 to 4 very high quality, relatively wide, but stable 8/4 live edge slabs.  The remainder of the log will provide stable 8/4 or 4/4 (whatever is your preference) edged boards.  So you may only get 2 to 4 of the 8/4 live edge slabs from each log, but they will be the best the log can offer.  If you saw up several logs, they add up real fast.  This pattern generates very little waste and utilizes almost the whole log.  This wouldn't be the sawing pattern I would use for low value sapwood species such as cherry.  However, it works great with hard or soft maple, mineralized poplar, box elder, etc.

With smaller logs, it be best to forgo the initial 4/4 side wood boards and get the 8/4 live edge slabs with a 6" or so clear face, if thats not too narrow for your use.  Just don't get greedy and try to get too many and stray into the heartwood or pith, or they will behave like the boards you see in my photos.   

Most people try to totally through saw live edge slabs, and cross from sapwood to heartwood to the pith and back out.  This sawing gives the widest boards but they will dry like potato chips. 

Here is another discussion on sawing technique to get high quality boards.

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,90483.msg1392800.html#msg1392800

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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2018, 05:38:30 AM »
Nice instructional...may I add: Assuming you are going for higher-grade and best material, get it on sticks--like yesterday. If the temps are over about 50 that stuff, 12 hours after sawing is about too long. Fluted sticks (minimal surface contact) is best. Not wide sticks and not green ones either...dry.

If not, unstack your pile and resticker it with new dry sticks and new locations, after 10-20% moisture loss.

When going for the sapwood like Yellow's indicating, it's the white wood that is desirable and the more white it is, the better. My snowy white curly maple is a labor of love.  ;D smiley_love
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
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Offline Ed_K

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2018, 09:48:18 AM »
 Thanks, I book marked this thd and the drying/sawing dilemma thd. On the 8/4 do I saw thick enough to be able to resaw to 4/4 later if someone wanted 4/4?
 Sorry for hijacking this thd. One more question, how long to air dry before sending to a friend to dry kiln.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2018, 01:31:00 PM »
If you want nice white maple AND your friend is an experience kiln op, get it in there ASAP. It's the best way to preserve the color. If white isn't your priority and/or you friends kiln experiences aren't up to it (especially with 8/4), air dry it down to a safer level of about 25-30% or so.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Baker Portable Edger with Kubota Diesel
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln


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