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Author Topic: New Toy (Tool)  (Read 6293 times)

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Online YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2017, 12:07:21 AM »
So If it's a $50 piece or a $10 piece it has to be straight. :D :D ;)
Yep. 
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 04:40:02 PM »
YellowHammer, what was the reason for not using the sawmill? I've been thinking of adding a router to my all manual sawmill.
Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that when straightening pallet quantities of kiln dried, slightly bowed, cupped or curved slabs where the band does more skimming and light cutting than full kerf cutting, the tooth set will be removed from the bottom side of the band after several cuts, maybe a dozen slabs or so depending on species, although everything appears to be fine.  So while the band is still sharp, burying the band in the cut, full kerf, is not a problem and for the first dozen or so clean up cuts everything goes very well.  Skim it, cut it, slice it, no problem, flat as a pancake.

However, after top skimming a bunch of slabs, if the band ever needs to dig in full kerf, full width, disaster! The band will dip down, and dive into the cut like a porpoise on the bow wave of the Calypso and ruin the slab.  Basically, the band will behave like a band that is not only dull and has also lost its set on only one side, which is exactly what has happened.  Ouch!!

The solution is to change the band out more often, which I only seems to do after I've had a massive dive.

I wish I had never sold my LT15, because if I hadn't there would be an MP100 planer sitting on it.  I think that would be perfect. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you are taking the set out of the bottom teeth of the blade than it should climb in the next full cut. Since it would be taking more kerf above the blade then below it. Just my logic.
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Online YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 06:45:10 PM »
Jake, I see your point, but all I know is the band dives badly once it's submerged and even has that joyful little extra bonus cup in the center of the boards to take even a little extra out.  My 2 3/8" thick piece of wood turns into 1 3/4" in a hurry with a little smoke in the kerf to boot because it's pulling down so hard.

I wish it would rise in the cut and not butcher my stuff.  That would be ideal.   

The mill cuts fine with green wood, or at the beginning of a slab trimming session.  Thing is, something is damaging the band because last time I tried, I attempted to finish the session just edging some of the live edge slabs, and even then, with very narrow edge cuts, it was up and down to the point I had to clean them up on the track saw.

Good thing is, I don't have to do it anymore, I may leave this one up to the pros.   8)

I've got a load of hard maple slabs coming out of the kiln in a couple weeks, I may run a few skims and take some photos when she goes under, and see what you guys think. 

It's got me curious, has nobody else seen this behavior when Slab Skimmin more than a dozen or so? It's happened to me repeatedly. 
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Offline Don P

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 09:12:15 PM »
its just like a chain, or circle blade, the sharp side cuts faster so it starts an ever tightening arc as it "beats" the dull side. All of a sudden you're spiraling the drain. I got that little cup 1" deep with the slabbing bar last week before I just couldn't use brute force and ignorance any more   :D. I've done it with the lucas skimming too.

As a laterally unsupported beam (your blade) fails, the compression edge buckles sideways, out of plane, that is the cup. The race between cutting sides determines which way the beam buckles.

Offline WDH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 09:37:09 PM »
I have not had a big problem with it.  But, I never do more that 8 or ten at a time.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline customsawyer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2017, 02:36:24 AM »
I've never done very many either, so I have never experienced what Robert is. What Don P is saying makes some since.
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Offline Jemclimber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2017, 09:06:34 AM »
Has anyone ever used a carbide tipped blade on a sawmill to use exclusively for jointing? I don't do production work, but I would really like to joint wide boards occasionally. I have a 20" planer, but haven't had great luck with a large sled.  I've done it with hand planes and with a router sled, but it sure is time consuming and makes lots of chips, shavings, and dust.  For the little amount that I do, a carbide blade used exclusively for jointing on my mill is much cheaper than a 20" jointer and takes up much less space.
lt15

Offline customsawyer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2018, 08:02:37 PM »
How is the new toy doing now that you have a little time on it?
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Online YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2018, 12:08:34 AM »
Better than I had hoped.  I still hate the guard.  I've run several thousand bdft through it. 

Here's some walnut a couple days ago.  This is one reason I got it.  These boards were twitchy with a lot, too much, sapwood which really pulls the boards, and since they were high value, I knew through experience if I ran them through a conventional two sided, I would have about a 30% sapwood bow rate, and would mean cutting that many boards in half to flatten enough to sell.  So I had a little extra time on my hands and ran every one of these 8 footers through the jointer.  I was able to flatten them all out except two, which I had to cut in half.  A huge increase is quality.   


I decided to shallow up the cut for a few boards to get a feel for the board wave and actually see where the machine was taking off.  That's what these boards show, exactly where they were being faced, and how flat they were coming out.  This is after a shallow first pass and you can see the dips and dives that were being shaved.  Of course, most times, I set it for a single deep 3/16 pass, but I was just playing and learning.  This was an unusually high movement stack of walnut, due to the sapwood, and most times it's much flatter than this out of the kiln.  However, this was one reason I bought this machine, to turn poop into gold, and when I got done with it, these guys were as flat as a pancake. 



Of course the main reason I bought it was for slab flattening, and for this it just excels.

 




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Offline WDH

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2018, 12:12:55 AM »
It is a hassle for sure, but it gives me great pleasure and makes me proud to offer boards that are 15/16" to a minimum of 7/8" thick, planed, and flat.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 06:29:45 AM »
Thanks for the update.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 07:45:26 AM »
Yellow,

Being that it's a lot of manual labor to push a pile like that through, are you considering a power feeder for the jointing ops? Also, I'm curious what the difference in the retail value and sales timeline is once you flatten/plane them vs leaving them as-is?

I appreciate your business model in catering to the retail buyer and struggle to find better ways myself!! smiley_clapping

I don't know of any retailers locally doing it, saving WoodCraft, and they usually only have a VERY small amount at a VERY high ticket.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Online YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 09:10:21 AM »
You are right, this took a few hours and its not something I want to do too often, and would have only considered doing with a high value wood.  The interesting thing abiout this machine is that with the cutter head and the grooved bed, the pushing effort is only a fraction of what it took me with my other jointer.  So instead of feeling like I had been run over by a truck, I wasn't even tired, and felt good enough to play around with it awhile.  My other jointer was the most hated tool in my shop, lots of effort but required because it was the only way get the quality I wanted.  Hated it, but had to use it.  This thing is a whole different class, easy to use and does a much better job.  I wouldn't have believed it was that much better than my old one.

Yes I am definitely considering a power feed, but since I installed a Powermatic on my old machine, I at least got to see the issues with one.  I'm shopping around, but the Comatic dedicated jointer feeder with metal feeder fingers seems to be the best choice.  However, I have seen the limitations of a conventional rubber tire power feeder on a jointer, so I'm not convinced if I install it, I can still get the high quality flat lumber with the habitually troublesome boards.

Everything must have a business balance, i.e. is it worth it?  Hand flattening a thousand bdft of walnut took several hours, and there is a cost and effort associated with that.  Its not something I would do routinely, but I'm still learning this machine and it was cold outside, so why not?  On the other hand, it would have taken me just slightly less time to have to go through already planed, but bowed, lumber and flatten and dress the bad actors.  Especially since our normal initial skip planing process removes a lot of meat that I can used to joint off and still have thick boards.  So I'm still working thorough the $$ and cents, but as to your question of turn around, specifically, this pack of lumber came out of the kiln, was jointed Wednesday, straight lined Thursday, trimmed and about half of it sold yesterday.  Thats a couple day processing turnaround of $2,800 gross.  Straight and long sells.  Bowed doesn't.
 
Our normal process is takes about two weeks when wood comes out of a kiln, includes unsticking, banding, trucking to our outsource planer, leaving for a week, trucking back and then straightening.       
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 07:34:50 PM »
So are you sawing it 4/4 and still getting 7/8" boards? After you flatten one side do you run the other side through a planer so you get a consistent thickness?
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 09:14:21 PM »
When I cut a board in half because of bow, as in cutting a 10' board into two 5' pieces, I flatten one side on the jointer.  This sometimes takes two passes on the jointer,  Then, the board is run through the planer to plane the other side.  The majority of them still plane out to 15/16", but a portion have to be taken down to 7/8" thick.  This is on stock that was sawed green a 1 1/8" thick then kiln dried, so there is some shrinkage in thickness from the kiln drying. 
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 10:11:28 PM »
With the longer bed of this jointer, I can now flatten out almost 1/4" bow on a rough sawn 4/4 over 8 feet and then plane down to 3/4".  if the boards are worse, then I do as WDH and bring them to 7/8".  Either way, straight as an arrow. 

On boards that were skip planed to 15/16" I don't have a lot of meat to play with anymore, so I typically cut them in half and plane.  That's why wanted to play with these rough sawn walnut boards, I could experiment with the jointer and still end up with a pile of straight 8 foot walnut.  Kill two boards with one stone.

Speaking of jointing long boards, I seem to get a much better result with the middle of the bow down to the bed as opposed to what I thought was the more conventional crown up technique.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2018, 05:54:12 AM »
It makes a difference to savvy buyers. Time and again I see larger lumber butchers jamming twisted/warped material through a big industrial planer, only to get thinner twisted/warped material out the other end.

Double-jeopardy since not only does it fail to remedy the issue, but now you have that much less to work with when attempting to fix it.   :-X

Yellow, something struck me curious yesterday when I was reading this thread. You mentioned that you have a line-up at your planer the other day. Isn't your material all planed already, prior to buyers making selections? Or, is this to plane it to final thickness?  Also, do you offer SLR of your material? As a lumber USER also, I'd always pay the extra to have my material straight-lined or even better yet, edged both sides. Even though I have the equipment to do it, it sure is a savings in the shop.

Again, it's back to the material handling issue. The Amish outfit I use is really setup for it. They can do it in 1/4 the time, they deal with the waste, and I can focus on higher-value ops. Win:win!

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2018, 07:41:46 AM »
I believe that it is the same case for Yellowhammer, but for me, I plane to 15/16" so that the customer can get a good look at the features of the board, i.e. grain, color, etc.  Usually, both sides are cleaned up, but sometimes one side has some skips.  If they do not have a planer and want the board finished planed to 3/4, 7/8, etc., or if they want one edge jointed, or both, I charge for that.  The initial planing is on me, the final planing is on them.  For each valued added step, planing, jointing, ripping, I add 50 cents per BF. 

At the sawmill and wood room, I do not have the ability to rip boards to finished width.  I have to take them to my shop which is over 1/2 mile away.  That is a real pain in the butt log.  With the new lumber room, I plan to put a tablesaw in there so that I can plane, joint, and rip all at the same location.

One thing that I have learned.  Short boards sell.  The 3' stuff can sell as fast as the 8' or 10' stuff.  5' is a very good seller.  Almost every customer that is buying a board first picks it up and sights down the board to see if it is straight.  Of course, I also do the very same thing  :).   
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
Thanks for the replies gents
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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2018, 09:27:48 AM »
We don't sell rough sawn, all our 4/4 lumber is initially skip planed to 5/16" and our 8/4 gets brought down to 2" using one of three places that each have industrial planers or molders.  We produce way too much for us to do ourselves, along with all the other stuff we have to do, and I typically carry a trailer load to get planed on Friday while I return with the load I carried up last week.  So about every week we have a 25 foot trailer load of fresh lumber to work with, and I get a real good idea as to the limitations of these machines, when we handle and sort the boards when we stock the shelves.  Boards that are aren't right, have wane, bow, curve or other defects get pulled and put on "work" pallets for us to clean up later.  These boards are the ones we hand work, and which we try to minimize.  So we use our SLR, planer, jointer, and chop saw to get them right and back win the rack at at full price.  Here's the weekly quantity, more or less, that we plane and get back every week or so.  Even a relatively small percentage of these boards being culls adds up quick in lost profit.

 

Since we have the tools, and are in pretty good practice, we offer any and all of the the services to further dress and clean up the skip planed boards as the customer wants for a fee.  For example, if a customers wants to pay for it, we can produce them final, flat, edged 4S boards they can take home and use when they pull into their shop.  Its up to them.  The most common request is to use the SLR to put a joint quality edge on the boards or use the planer to bring the 15/16" down to 3/4".  One comment I get all the time is that our tools, since they are dialed in and typically higher quality, can produce much better surfaces and edges than the homeowner tools that many of our customers have.  So even if they have the tools they still want us to do it.  Snipe is a common problem with homeowner planers, and some customers (I had one this weekend) want us to finish plane their wood just because our planer doesn't waste wood by sniping.
 
PA, you mention value added services, and thats exactly what we try to provide to separate us from "everyone" else.  Imagine you were a novice woodworker, and the owner of the business (me) asks you what you were going to use the wood for, and you said a nice table for your family but were nervous about getting a flat surface and good joints, and I said, for a small fee, I'd face your boards on the jointer to make them cast iron flat, plane them all to the same thickness, then joint the edges so they will fit together perfect?  And do it while you watch in about 10 minutes?  Happens to us all the time, and when when the customer sees the results they always break into a big smile and become regular customers. 
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