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Author Topic: Timberframe Cutting Timeline  (Read 1430 times)

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Offline Momatt

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Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« on: December 01, 2017, 10:33:48 AM »
Hi Guys, 
I am thinking about starting cutting a 16 by 24 queen post frame with a loft.  Thinking of using a Grand Oaks timber frame plans.  I have a farm in central Missouri 95 miles from where I live.  I have a sawmill out there, a crawler couple tractors etc. and can get my own wood.  I want to mill up a few 8X8s at a time, bring them home and cut them, because it will take forever if I try to do the work out there.  It may take a year to get it all cut, but probably less If I do the work at home I can go out and cut a mortise after supper etc.  I am concerned about the green timbers twisting up before the raising.  One possible solution is to go ahead and assemble bents out there as I finish them.  How big of a concern should this be, that I go to assemble and stuff has moved and won't line up?  My timbers would be oak, maybe some walnut and occasionally a eastern red cedar ( I have a few I can get 8x8 out of).  I have no where to keep stuff out of the weather. 

I have a little Logrite jr log arch. to move the timbers around.  Other than nailing a sacrificial board to the middle how can I keep the hooks from marring up finished timbers?  I wonder If I could replace the hook with a flat pinch. 

   

Offline AlaskaLes

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 01:46:36 PM »
I'm at a similar spot in the timber frame plan
We'll be cutting beams for the shop next Summer and working to accomplish all of the joinery
for the shop/garage that the house will rest on top of.
 
I have done a mountain of reading, started collecting the needed tools and cut a few practice joints, so I am not the expert here.  I would recommend that you set up something to keep the timbers out of the weather, even if it's just a tarp building.
 Interesting question about just putting the bents up as you build them.  It seems to me that you would just be exposing the finished pieces to a fair bit of weather and maybe swelling and moving them while you're off working on the next bent.
Regarding the log tong marks, I wonder if you could just use a strap through a carabiner/ring to hold the beams while you move them.  As long as they're up on some small cribbing, it'll be easy enough to get the strap around.

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Offline witterbound

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 08:35:16 AM »
I cut my frame in northwest Arkansas about ten years ago.  You must have a place to cover your timbers or blue mold will begin.  I cut my frame over a summer, and stored my timbers under a large tarp.  some of my timbers moved a little, but I didn't do the fit up until just before raising, so I made adjustments then.  Red cedar is not going to be easy to use, IMO, as it doesn't chisel easily.  The idea of raising your bents as you cut them doesn't make any sense to me, because your frame and floor decking will be exposed to weather.  I cut a few timbers at my home too.  Transporting the timbers, and handling them at home without my tractor was a pain in the ass.  Spreading out cutting a frame over a year is a long haul.  After 3-4 months I was ready to move on. 

Offline Momatt

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 09:38:24 AM »
Witterbound, I am curious what members were boxed heart?  I should probably make up a quick shelter for the timbers to start off.  Maybe something with a removable roof so I can easily get at the timbers with my crawler.  My inlaws live near Bella Vista in NW Arkansas.  Lots of dead or dying oaks down that way.  Firewood is not in short supply for sure.
 

Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 07:15:57 PM »
Momatt, what you need is shade, air flow, level ground, thick stickers, ample air circulation in the stack and end coating.  I have placed a geo textile on the ground to stop weed growth.  Placed concrete block to support the wood dunnage.  I used salvaged channel drain roof to cap the stack.  I am sure you could work out the necessary details.
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 08:08:42 PM »
If he has another building but no room in it, how about a lean to (basically a roof) against it for this purpose?

Offline witterbound

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 10:24:30 PM »
I did not cut my timbers.  I bought them and cut the joinery.  I'm not an expert about how a tree is cut to use as posts, beams, etc..... 

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 07:01:56 PM »
The planning of a timber frame for me has been the hardest part also, with all that needs to be considered to be successful. Not having any timber framing skills would only be one of the obstacles to overcome. The problem we are trying to work through here (planning) seems to be the largest for me also.
I believe I will be able to overcome my biggest concern of the timbers twisting only by assembling as soon as cut.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 08:15:29 PM »
If you think it will take a long time, you could mill your timbers and let them sit for 6 months to a year so that they do most of the moving they are going to do before you layout and cut joinery.  You could mill them a little oversize so if they twist a bit, you can take some out with a makita 12 inch  power planer.  I would not mix cedar in with the hardwoods.  Keep it all hardwood if that is what you have most of.  If you've got a white pine frame it's ok to use hardwood braces, but other than that, stick to the hardwood.  That just end up happening with the stuff I'm milling.  By the time it's time to cut joinery, most have been sitting in the barn for a year.  But I also cut them oversize and plane them after a year.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 11:35:33 AM »
I know my frame will take some time, i dont have a barn or shelter. Using the concrete blocks as one of you suggested and steel base with dry thick stickers I plan on using that as a table. Placing 2 of these tables in a position close enough to the crane, covering the same as I would for air drying lumber seems to be the only way I could build green.

Offline AlaskaLes

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 03:41:03 PM »
Using your table idea, you could cut and join timbers and just stack them in long and short bunks near your crane site, stickered and covered until your ready to assemble.  When one stack/table gets too high to work on, just start the next one.  Pretty soon, you'll have a dozen or so, stacks of protected, stickered timbers ready to go.  The only issue here is: do you have enough area around the proposed house site to build up the various stacks?
From all of the "Professional" input I've read ( not me, I'm a total newbie), there is going to be some small amount of shrink/shift in the joinery during the time it takes you to compile the list of timbers.

The methods I intend to use to control this are:
Cut joinery to tight tolerances to minimize the slop as it dries and allow me to open it a little more, if needed, while still maintaining tight joints.

Stack and cover as flat and dry as possible to minimize environmental stresses to the wood while it's waiting.

Pre-fit all assemblies prior to raising to allow corrections before the raising begins.

Draw bore pegs last, so I can maximize the tightening benefits of the peg.

I agree that the planning for assembly is a very big part.  We've got a crane and that's a nice load off the timeline, as I don't have to pay for extended use of someone else's equipment rental.

The biggest part for me will be engineering a very clear schedule of assembly that allows me and my wife to do 98% of the raising without outside help.
I'll be doing all of the Monkey work and she's the crane operator in our world anyway.
It's just a daunting task to plan how to assemble the tying pieces between bents without 6 people there to guide them all at once.
You can see Mt McKinley from our backyard...Up Close!!

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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 04:10:38 PM »
The experienced people on here must really roll their eyes when they see all these newbies like me making suggestions, but that will not stop me.

 Given the drying related concerns & predictions for needing adjustment, would this be a good situation for using mechanical connectors like Timberlinx?   It seems like tightening/loosening would be a lot easier with them in the mix, rather than trying to adjust mortise and tenon joints.

 The peg-like hole covers allow for a mortise and tenon look, with the added bonus that you can pull the pegs out and make some level of adjustments to the joints.   Of course you could consider less expensive fasteners for non-critical, non-troublesome joints, where loads are not as great, etc.

I see an interesting parallel with the Stihl two in one chainsaw blade sharpener, extolled in a thread elsewhere on this forum.  The $400+ drilling jig that Timberlinx sells gives a certain amount of idiot proofness in a similar way.  Sell it on here or on craigslist when you get done.

I vote for idiotproofness any old time.   It lessens the problem when you have "one of those days".   Given my low level of expertise in TF/P&B, even with the help I hope to have, I may have a few of those.  Just a few :P

 I'm sure someone with better engineering expertise will chime in as to whether or not that makes sense.  We will face some of the same problems with our build, since cutting the timber & using it all at once is not possible for us either, especially considering the level of DIY input we will be counting on.

 Wondering if the scenario changes given that we will probably be using largely hardwood, oak?

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 08:51:53 AM »
Timberlinx or mechanical fasteners are already on my list for me being successful. I believe these can solve some of the time frame problems that anyone building and wanting the traditional look will use.I have a concrete main floor that will help,as it will not need to be protected from the elements.
A question I have is whether a 2 story bent has ever been built with the 2nd floor added after closing in structure and how it was tied together like a typical frame? That alone would help anyone with time constraints and all of the stress of trying to protect flooring lower ceiling and the beams of the flooring system.
My plan would have a rather tall frame and wide so bracing and cabling as one unit would be considerable.
If i had to move my timbers to my home because I was as far away as some of you have indicated, so I could get the time to make the frame I believe you could get a fair amount of expense into doing so.I think the time alone would cancel out the expected benefit.

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 09:09:36 AM »
Although drop in or tenoned joists are more common I prefer to stack things like joists on top of their girders and block between anyway for structural reasons. More mill type heavy timber construction than true tf. That could be quite easy later.

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 09:46:47 AM »
Hi Don, That is really what could lower the open time of the structure. In trying to stay with a true timber frame, if the structure was dried in, them joist pockets and the tendens joists-beams could be cut in in the air with the right equipment. That should help someone so far away from the frame site with twisting, and shrinking and time! I believe I will put that suggestion on my list.                           

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
Cecil Hewett in "Historic English Carpentry" also shows a long slot mortise that a joist tenon can swing into.

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2017, 08:49:52 AM »
I would like to see an illustration of the long slot mortise if someone has one. I believe it could help in planning any modified t/f home. I
The big timber suggestion you had, has moved up on my list of planning. The modern day floor system is exactly that,except the substitution of heavy timbers versus tji's, micro-lams, joist-hangers , and  finish carpentry in all of the exposed framing.
Is it a dovetail joint?

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2017, 06:28:31 PM »
My copy seems to be out, can someone sketch it?
I found one article of his on floor framing, alas that pic wasn't in there but some good drawings were, not related to this but good, check out the joists on pg 96 and 103
http://www.buildingarchaeology.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Jettying-Floor-Framing-Hewett.pdf

Offline jaciausa

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2017, 08:22:10 PM »
I did find a dovetailed floor joist that would drop into the beams. Looked like a lot of work considering the size of my plan 40 x 80 .
I also found a picture of timbers going over the top as you suggested, except they were the full width of the building. That looked very easy except the milling and length. So I  just decided to make them out of 40 ft white pine logs laid over white oak beams that would be milled. No blocking, no milling except top. It will create a large trucking bill and I will have to buy the logs.
How much will they twist by only milling the top for the flooring?

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberframe Cutting Timeline
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 07:48:42 AM »
White pine is about as "calm" drying a wood as you can get, it generally just lays there.
If you can obtain and install full length it does make for a stronger assembly. Beams should be laterally supported at their ends and over bearing points. This comes from needing to keep the upper edge in place on typical taller, narrower beams. As they become wider with respect to height this need does diminish.

The problem with those drop in dovetails is that as the dovetailed joist shrinks in width, the now narrower dovetail withdraws from its mortise. I've later stuck my thumb in the gap on a green to dry red oak frame where those 1" long dovetails had withdrawn that much. They were Hundegger machined, the initial fit was within thousandths. Also, the section of beam used for strength design should be the depth of the beam and the width of beam between the mortises. So I'm not a real fan of drop ins. The diminished haunch soffit tennon does not suffer from that width reduction but those do need to go in during raising. In all of this though, if height allows stacking rather than notching, I prefer keeping the beams unnotched.


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