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Author Topic: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber  (Read 7503 times)

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Online Jeff

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #100 on: December 25, 2017, 02:17:38 PM »
You are standing, looking in a circle, and not seeing past the edges of your own field of view.

2 facts. First, Your definition of high grading versus the rest of the forest products community is obviously askew. Your description is great, but your term is off.  High grading=bad   Kinda like calling cloudy water milk. It aint.

2nd, your concern for the troll is also not being able to see past the edges.  This guy was bad news, that is why he was called out and also why he was removed. His attitude towards other members and other things you would have no way of knowing about.

Quote
Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.
 
You are absolutely out of your league in this conversation. There is no other way to put it, or view it after that statement there
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #101 on: December 25, 2017, 02:29:14 PM »
What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?

I would call that not a good management plan. A proper management plan in a good northern hardwoods stand will remove trees across all diameter classes (not just the best) focusing on removing the worst individuals first until you achieve your target density. After a few rotations of that you won't have many junk trees and you will be removing nice trees across all the size classes but not just the "best". Generally you don't focus on removing a particular species (like aspen) as diversity is good.

Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.

There is lots and lots of it around. The Baraga Plains for example is so sandy that there are 50+ year old hardwood trees that are nothing more than a brush, yet there are red pine stands that are growing utility pole size wood in 60-80 years. The area I live close to the lake has shallow poorly drained clay and our hardwood rarely grows to saw log size. It can be 100 years old and 8" diameter and 60 feet tall, but the aspen was removed 50 years ago and now it came back and is 18"+ diameter and in need of harvest again (come to the farm I can show you lots of examples). Not all ground is created equal, that's why foresters use a thing called site index to evaluate a sites potential for a particular species. There is plenty of soil that is best suited to something other than growing hardwood trees.

Pure stands of aspen and pine aren't always there because they were clearcut, they were clearcut because that is how you mimic mother nature and manage those species.

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #102 on: December 25, 2017, 02:35:44 PM »
It sure wont be pine or aspen. Its a byproduct of the hardwood industry.

That is as far from the truth as possible they are all divisions of one industry producing a product for a consumer

A good majority of the houses in this country are framed in pine. A good majority of the pulp/paper produced in the lake states region is produced from aspen. Those demands are met because there are different segments of the forest products industry.

Offline davidmw

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2017, 06:50:51 AM »
This is my first post, and without reading the entire thread --just basing my response on the title, my advice is to be involved as much as possible and get multiple opinions. It is your land, period. Do with it what you think you'll aways be happy with long term.

I have 30 acres full of hardwood --with many large veneer quality oak, and I've had 3 foresters look at it at this point --I also have a 2 year degree in forestry so I know a thing or two. The problem with my land is access. There isn't any roads precut and to even begin to get to those tree's, a road on the side of a steep hillside would need built to where it flattens out some. To get a logging company to come over to my neck of the woods and build a road up on my hill to cut 30 acres (small for most logging operations coming from hours away) would not be very cost effective for most logging companies, without pretty much ripping me off the value of timber. There are a few out there who want it, but to make it worth it for them, they would have go against what I personally want to see happen with my land, which is more of a select cut, featuring sections dedicated to wildlife bedding, habitat, etc, etc. If a company takes the time to go on my hill, they will want to cut way more than I want them too just to make it worth their while. If I had 300 acres I'm sure it would be different.

Needless to say, being a contractor/farmer/woodworker, I've decided to selectively get those logs (at least the ones below 30" or so dbh) myself and cut some of them up with a bandsaw mill that I just bought. I've reached out through the grapevine and secured use of a dozer and mini-ex to help get my access cut in. I have a tractor, backhoe, saws, chains, too many tools lol, etc. My entire property is mapped out in the way I want it tweaked for wildlife. I just have to execute it now. I currently have 23 trees on the ground that need milled. I should be busy for a long time lol. I hope to contribute as much as I can to here, to repay the forum for all the knowledge I've found here......
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2017, 08:15:20 AM »
Welcome to the forestry forum, Davidmw. I look forward to hearing more about your progress.
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Offline Lumberjohn

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2017, 08:21:15 AM »




 

Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber

Reply #103 on: Today at 06:50:51 am


Quote

 



I have 30 acres full of hardwood --with many large veneer quality oak, and I've had 3 foresters look at it at this point --I also have a 2 year degree in forestry so I know a thing or two. The problem with my land is access. There isn't any roads precut and to even begin to get to those tree's, a road on the side of a steep hillside would need built to where it flattens out some. To get a logging company to come over to my neck of the woods and build a road up on my hill to cut 30 acres (small for most logging operations coming from hours away) would not be very cost effective for most logging companies, without pretty much ripping me off the value of timber. There are a few out there who want it, but to make it worth it for them, they would have go against what I personally want to see happen with my land, which is more of a select cut, featuring sections dedicated to wildlife bedding, habitat, etc, etc. If a company takes the time to go on my hill, they will want to cut way more than I want them too just to make it worth their while. If I had 300 acres I'm sure it would be different.

Bingo- This guy doesn't need a forester, he knows how he wants it done. Good point- who is gonna come in on a small job and cull out the trash taking a couple decent logs with a bunch of road that needs put in. My point is if you want all this clean up in your woods, and it isn't feasible for a Co to come out, I guess do it yourself. Why would a production crew want anything to do with it, it surely couldnt pay. I tried saying this in other posts but it didn't come out right.

Offline John Mc

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2017, 08:50:33 AM »
Well, yeah, if you've got more work to get done than you've got good timber to cut it's either do it yourself or expect to pay out of pocket to get it done.

On the land I own jointly with others, we needed some trail improvement work done, but weren't ready for a timber harvest, so we ended up hiring a guy with an excavator. In this case, we were fortunate, since a local watershed quality group was looking for a demonstration project. Since we allowed public access to the property, we qualified for a grant from them. They paid for the excavator work, we hauled and put in rock to armor the waterbars and broad-based dips so hey would hold up longer.
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Offline Logger RK

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2017, 09:09:53 AM »
Red Clay country is The Magical Land that grows basically Aspen. And years ago some of the Logger's select cut some lots I know of. To me there where just cutting the better trees. Now that stuff that was left is falling over and the rest of the stand isn't mature yet. That's where I believe a clear cut should've been done. Then you have a even aged crop next cut.

Offline quilbilly

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2017, 01:55:28 PM »
The place that doesn't grow hardwoods is where I live, PNW. %90 of most stands are Doug fir. The other ten can be a mix of maple alder cedar and hemlock with other random species thrown in. Also for fir to Regen properly it needs a certain amount of daylight, up to 3 acres I've heard. This used to be done by a natural or native American started fire every couple hundred years and the cycle has since been replaced by clear cut and plant.
People are always trying new things, hybrid poplar plantations, DF and WC mixed, alder, and the latest I've heard is UW might do a mixed DF alder plant in their experimental forest in the Forks area. This is all after a clear cut though, nearly every forester clear-cuts after a target age out here. Different areas have different management practices for different climates and species, and site area. To make a one size fits all hardwood only thinning plan for the US is not a good policy.
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Offline Pclem

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2017, 04:55:04 PM »
         Second. Id love to see this land where hardwoods magically dont grow, but pine and aspen mature in good time? That sounds like a bias statement to me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
         You can dance around your answer. but what you claim is high grading, is not what i consider high grading                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
          As far as loggers dollars are concerned. high grading a property 3 times(inproperly), leaving twisted crap trees soaking up the canopy light. Might sound worse than clear cut, and growing a fast growing cash crop like aspen or pine. or what i like to call crap wood....
but in reality, clear cutting destroys the natural ecosystem                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
           All quotes above. I'm probably doing it wrong :-\                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  We have sand country here. Red pine plantations thrive here. Much better than hardwoods. I wish we had more pine plantations on the property ;) Most of the oak is low grade. We have clearcut a couple areas and have fantastic regeneration, to promote a tight healthy stand again. We just aquired an adjacent 40 from the timber company that was clearcut 40-50 years ago, and is the nicest looking oak on the property. I am very happy they clearcut it 8) We had some land north of here 45 minutes, had some beautiful red oak and aspen. The red oak stands we would thin the crap out and leave the best. Would never think of clearcutting that. The aspen stands we would clearcut, to promote another beautiful stand of aspen. [Which seems to always be good demand for] These were, and are all managed differently.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2017, 07:35:32 PM »
Quote

What do you call it when you go in a old forest and take the best 20% of the forest? Then in a managment plan, clear out the dead/dying/and crap wood. Weither its crooked or aspen?




 "High grading" is generally considered to be when the only effort exerted is at harvesting that best 20% and anything else is left however it lands.  Smashed young trees half snapped over, tops standing against the tree they snagged in where the stem was cut off, rotten twizzler sticks left standing at full height to then fall over on the new growth and pin it down. In a few years.    So we all agree on whats good and bad, the argument is over regional terminology more than anything. 

I have been scouting deer sites around me for a year here on the cumberland plateau of middle tennessee , which is primarily 3 inches of topsoil over a sandy clay, which is over limestone or sandstone.   lots of terrain and parcels, lots of different logging and management/mismanagement styles.   As for a clearcut wrecking a place i am just not seeing it, and im studying 3 different aged cuts. 

Deer love a clearing within a forest, they love edge and gorge themselves on fresh coppice sprouts.  So if you have dense timber and hollars that hold deer, theyre gonna find that clearing and make it part of their browse routine.  Deer eat the heck out of black gum, red maple, berry brambles, pokeweed, young sourwood, poison ivy, poison oak and whatever our typical thorn is.  If you cut and get light you will get deer and they will do a pretty good job of selective mowing.  If there is enough other forage, i dont see much evidence of tree damage other than buck rubs.  And of those i see it limited to eastern red cedar, sourwood and bush honeysuckle in my range.  Ive not found a blazed up oak or hickory yet.


The opposite scenario, our standard really,  is all the "woods" left from high graded sites.  They are great for holding deer beds because of an abundance of overhead trash tangle.  50 sapplings get pinned into wood caves whenever one of the big dead squirrel towers goes over and pins down any young replacement crop ..which then becomes a climbing vine platform to hog the new opening.  Deer love to live in it but theres nothing there to eat, light just doesnt get to the floor. A dead woody tangle that needs either wildfire or a forestry mulcher.   Nature is not repairing this, just sustaining the condition left behind by man and his uneducated harvest practice.

I do not find this problem at all on the clearcuts or heavy select cuts.  Those are all super dense straight toothpick farms jammed together like bamboo.. Or well on their way to it. 
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Online Jeff

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2017, 08:27:35 PM »
I went back and reviewed early posts from the member giving us the clear cut lesson.  In 2014 he could not identify maples thinking the buds were berries.  Enough said from me on this subject to him.
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Offline coxy

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2017, 09:08:44 PM »
member giving us the clear cut lesson.  In 2014 he could not identify maples thinking the buds were berries. 
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Must know knowledge for land owners wanting to sell their timber
« Reply #113 on: December 26, 2017, 09:10:45 PM »
You mean they are not?  Well that explains why my cereal tastes like wood...
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