The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: Small scale rope high lead logging system  (Read 2989 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Offthebeatenpath

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • OBP Trailworks, LLC
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2017, 12:08:21 AM »
Along similar lines... Here's a photo of a neat hand powered rigging scenario from the 1980's in Alaska. An old friend sent me this- he's the guy in the red hardhat. The project was to build a 100'+ long, single log footbridge in the wilderness. The tree was felled in winter with axes and crosscuts. The skyline system was run with hand powered winches. No motors or hydraulics of any kind. I wish I had a photo of the finished bridge.



 
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2017, 12:13:53 AM »
Dang you alaskans really are nuts! 

 ;D
Revelation 3:20

Offline starmac

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2444
  • Location: Fairbanks Ak.
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2017, 06:01:51 AM »
Hey, I resemble that.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Offline chet

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8023
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Land of da YOOPERS Iron River, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2017, 04:31:27 PM »
 :D :D :D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the arborist

Offline dustintheblood

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Eastern Ontario
  • Gender: Male
  • Home in the woods
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2017, 06:09:35 PM »
Seeing that pic reminds me of why I asked the west coast fellows not to laugh at what we were doing....
Case 1494, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln, plus other toys - cause well - gotta have something to play around on

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 08:21:05 PM »
FWIW, I bought 150 ft of 14K# rated Samson blue 0.5 in rigging rope for $130 recently, at a forestry eq store, RBI, near Richmond VA.  Stable Braid 1/2D Blue 150.  Heavy stuff.

Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2017, 09:12:16 PM »
Looked over your pics . It seems you do a lot of rigging . Would love to sit and talk shop but the best we can do is trade ideas and info on this great site.

I have very little experience in high lead logging in any form . I have loads of experience in moving things with ropes winches and tackles.

My interest in the high lead logging method is being sparked by the strength of these new ( to me ) ropes.

My winch has 2500 lbs line pull so the rope is more than strong enough. If I can find something not to out of this world expensive and given the small logs I want to move I am thinking I can go with a high line of 5/16" dia. Now I know this sounds small but I am not planning to fly these logs , just tail drag them .

Still working on the details . Family commitments will keep me from logging until Feb.

Quebecnewf

Offline Gary_C

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6187
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Blooming Prairie, MN USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Sunrise on the Prairie
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2017, 10:17:14 PM »
Two concerns I have for your consideration.

One, synthetic rope tends to stretch much more than steel cable. That stretch may make it unsuitable for your highline even though it's higher break values are attractive.

Two, the tension in your highline must be a multiple of the weight you are lifting. For example a 5 degree sag between your supports will require a tension of about 5.75 times the weight you are lifting. A 15 degree sag will require a tension of about 2 times the weight you are lifting. A 30 degree sag will require the same tension as the weight you are lifting.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2018, 02:56:46 AM »
Climbing and repelling lines seem have a bit more stretch than bullropes in my experience.  And id still say go half inch plus.  A rope around a pulley is now half the diameter worth since only half of it is in tension anymore
Revelation 3:20

Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2018, 07:20:16 AM »
Very interesting responses . Giving more and more info to mull over. I am going to try and draw up some pics of my planned setup today using sketch up . I will post them up and then we can try and figure out some of the forces and strain that will be put on the ropes.

The pic from Alaska is a log way bigger than I am talking about . Once again the west coast east coast thing . My logs fall in the following range .

All spruce and balsam fir .
Lengths of 8/10/12. Average dia at top end 7 to 8 " so as you can see a small run of logs .

Quebecnewf




Offline Offthebeatenpath

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • OBP Trailworks, LLC
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2018, 09:50:36 AM »
@Quebecnewf- I'm looking forward to seeing your sketchups. I'll try and post a couple illustrations of systems that I often use for moving materials to build trails. They aren't logging specific, but there is a lot of overlap.

There are a lot of ways to go about setting up yarding systems for pulling loads up and down hill. There are many variations of high leads and double highleads, highlines and skylines with and without belays and haul back lines, etc. Most are site and equipment specific. Basically, if you look at what folks have done for many decades out west and downsize for your smaller loads, you can meet your objectives with smaller and less expensive equipment.

I would definitely continue with your rope research. @Mike_Belben is right- climbing (and sometimes repelling) lines are usually dynamic (aka stretchy) while bull lines are usually static (aka not stretchy). I'm not sure that I understand the comment about a rope around a pulley being half the diameter because only half is in tension... I think Mike may be getting at the concept of a D:d or bend ratio that dictates how line strength is reduced as it is bent. Some fibers/wires are compressed and others take tension. The tighter the bend, the more the strength is reduced. Same reason why knots reduce a rope's strength, some knots more than others.

@Gary_C also brings up a really good point about deflection (aka sag). The more deflection, the less stress on anchors and your power source. However, you will have more stress on your spar (lifting) blocks. The example of 5 degrees of sag = almost 6 times load weight and 30 degrees of sag = same as load weight isn't incorrect, but it is a bit of an oversimplification. There is friction involved, dynamic loading from load movement, changing vector forces as the angles change, etc.

Most synthetic ropes do have more stretch than wire rope (cable), but not all. The amount of stretch varies tremendously. The new HMPE spectra ropes actually have almost the exact same elongation as cable. It seems like they stretch a bit, but it is just the weave of the rope tightening up. After it is compressed, there is the same amount of stretch as your standard skidder winch cable.

All the best.

Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline Offthebeatenpath

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • OBP Trailworks, LLC
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2018, 10:24:30 AM »
Here are a few illustrations of rigging systems that we use in the woods. They are all generally powered with hand powered or capstan hoists and are not production oriented- in other words, darn slow.  My fiancÚ drew these for a manual that I am helping put together for the USFS.

 

  

  

  

  

  

 

Happy new year everyone.

Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline Banjo picker

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2612
  • Location: Iuka Ms
  • Gender: Male
  • A goal without a plan is just a dream. Elbert H.
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2018, 10:51:01 AM »
I would like to get a copy of your manual.  Even though you are doing it manual, most of the rigging could be used with a hydraulic or pto winch.  I have a small track of large pine across a creek in a very wet area.  Banjo
Cooks AC 36--Prentice 210C--Morgan edger--Kubota M7040 with loader--Case 580 K with extendahoe--Case 850C dozer--Int 1700 series twin cylinder dump/log/flatbed truck--logging arch--2 Logrite mill sp.--Cat claw sharpening system--And a bulldog to make sure it all stays here.

Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2018, 11:03:49 AM »
All very good info

I came up with this dia on the Internet and it is pretty much what I am thinking of rigging up


Let's ignore the haul back line for now . If the two logs weigh 1000 lb total . How much strain will be on the high line assuming they are all the way of the ground .


How much strain assuming just the ends of the ground and the tails dragging

Quebecnewf


Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2018, 11:08:12 AM »
Just read the block loading page again . Think I am getting the answers figured out now .

Best site in the world for all things sawmill and logging ...

Quebecnewf

Offline Offthebeatenpath

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • OBP Trailworks, LLC
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2018, 11:51:42 AM »
Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline dustintheblood

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Eastern Ontario
  • Gender: Male
  • Home in the woods
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2018, 09:06:16 PM »
I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance
Case 1494, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln, plus other toys - cause well - gotta have something to play around on

Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2018, 06:11:03 AM »
Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.

I was thinking that a second power source would make things easier but I am thinking that is not going to be an option in my case . I am hoping that with proper planning and operation my skyline can remained fixed most of the time . If I have to slack it of I will be able to but not on every turn of logs .

Quebecnewf

Offline Quebecnewf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: Harrington Harbour Quebec Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2018, 06:37:01 AM »
I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance


I  believe this is a very important point . Walking through a section of wood that you plan to cut and then stopping after you have given it a real good look over in my way of thinking is the most important step.

Trying to see how the land lies, where the trees are that you plan to cut, are there any brooks , or other obstacles that you have to work around are all things that have to be taken into account.

I think the ability to "see " the whole job in the context of trees to be cut, lay of the land' equipment you have, time to do, etc etc .is something that you get better at over time. I know for my self I am a better logger now than when I started. This is a combination of better tools but mostly a better understanding of how to fo the job better, easier, and faster.

It's important that I have improved in this way because age is trying and succeeding in slowing me down in other ways. Not ready to give in yet though . Hence the interest in this high lead idea

Quebecnewf
 

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26604
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
    • Share Post
Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 08:48:10 PM »
Ayup,I do the same thing with my woods.planning the job out. But no line rigging in my woods. Just a tractor and a chainsaw and one man and a bunch of trees to cut and leave.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
High lead logging

Started by timberfaller390 on Forestry and Logging

23 Replies
11309 Views
Last post September 29, 2008, 12:41:37 PM
by VT_Forestry
xx
Small Scale Logging Production, Cords/Day w/ ATV, Logging Arch, & Chainsaw

Started by NorthMid on Forestry and Logging

22 Replies
3635 Views
Last post April 12, 2015, 10:15:27 AM
by 101mph
xx
small scale logging with a logging arch

Started by JimMartin9999 on Forestry and Logging

9 Replies
4592 Views
Last post April 03, 2010, 08:04:17 AM
by Ironwood
xx
A bit of small scale logging.

Started by Ianab on Forestry and Logging

16 Replies
4396 Views
Last post July 06, 2011, 06:57:26 AM
by Meadows Miller
 


Powered by EzPortal