Read some posts about 440 skidder weight, about 7 tons and using a one ton and 10 ton gn to move it around. I also have a one ton chev and a 7 ton tree farmer 1979 but no gn yet. I would like to hear more comments , if one ton to is sufficient to move a 7 ton skidder around.
I have a 7 ton blue ox and hauled it loaded with a chevy 2005 one tone for 2 years. It did it but it din't like it, many time it was at the limit of both accelleration and stopping
Depending on your truck. I have a gooseneck set up to haul short logs(21' or less). I shoot for 10 ton of logs per load in order to make the trip worthwhile. My trailer is rated at 22000 pounds. I have hauled 14 ton . That pushed me around a bit. This is in big, steep, mountains. I'll drop from 10500 feet to 6500 feet in 30 min in just the pickup. An hour plus loaded. I currently use a Dodge 3500 with six speed and an exhaust brake. I started doing my own short logs in 97 with a 97 Dodge. A one ton , 5 speed, with an exhaust brake. By going slow, and watching ahead, I have never had any problem. Saves a lot of money to throw a load on every time I come down, and not be takeing up space on the log truck. I send the better logs ( the better scaleing ones) to the big sawmill, and sort the smaller (and the poorer) logs to come home to my mill. Anyway, dont mean to ramble on, a 1 ton truck works good for that size of load.
James,
When I see a 2500 I think of it as a 3/4 ton. Was yours different?
My 2 cents is a 1 ton would be OK, as you are within specs, but obviously bigger is better when it comes to towing. BUt since you already own one what do you have to loose? I have seen some deals on Goosenecks and I bet you would use it for lots of stuff if you had one.
Dave
all my one tones were dual back tire 4 wheel drive 3500 chevys, gas 350 engines
I my estimatiation moter to small to pull 7 ton, brakes too small to stop 7 ton
can you and did I?? ??? yes, I bought a 4500 chevy kodiak....I no longer have to wipe off the seat when I get home
I have a 97 Dodge 1 ton and a 14k gooseneck that I have moved my skidder with a couple of times. It handles it ok, you can tell you have a load on for sure (I'm guessing my skidder to be in the 7 ton range) It's not a load I would pull all day, every day, but for moving the skidder from job to job it works just fine.
Ford F350 and 16,000 lb gooseneck hauls JD 440 just fine.
I haul 13.5k worth of equipment with a 99 dodge dually w/ cummins and a 20+k gooseneck. It's not fast, but it gets the job done.
Quote from: shinnlinger on April 29, 2010, 10:28:53 PM
James,
When I see a 2500 I think of it as a 3/4 ton. Was yours different?
My 2 cents is a 1 ton would be OK, as you are within specs, but obviously bigger is better when it comes to towing. BUt since you already own one what do you have to loose? I have seen some deals on Goosenecks and I bet you would use it for lots of stuff if you had one.
Dave
F250, and 2500's are 3/4 Ton Trucks
F350, And 3500's are 1 ton trucks
I used to haul my JD440 with my '99 F250 Ex-cab Powerstroke 6spd on a 24' 20Klbs GN trailer with no problems and I could manage Highway speeds, takes a little longer to get there and a little more to stop (But good trailer brakes help out greatly). I then Switched to using a '06 F350 Crewcab Powerstroke 6spd and a 32' 20Klbs GN trailer and it handled it the same.. Just my GVWR & GCVW numbers looked better on the one tone.. Just last monday I bought a '06 F450 Reg Cab Powerstroke Auto for my hualing needs, Should make it so i can haul my 19Klbs Processor much easier..
I have hauled a few loads that were way too large for the Pick-up and trailers though.. I once was 44K LBS loaded Truck, Trailer and load.. and the truck, trailer combo was 13,500lbs unloaded
There was a guy hauling a JD dozer(450 I think) down one of our hills. The accident investigation said that once the clutch exploded the brakes failed and there was nothing to hold it back. I don't remember what the autopsy said. Stay safe.
Stonebroke
I haul my TJ 225 around with a 94 Dodge cummins which is a 3/4 ton. Trailer is tandem axle dual wheeled, has good stopping power. My skidder weighs around 7 ton. I don't set no speed records and haven't had any problems.
can a 1 ton do it and is it legal to do it are 2 different questions.
Good point on the clutch. I had the rivets come out on my 400 HP South Bend clutch (behind a stock 7.3 PSD). It wasnt that old and it would have free wheeled me as well. Luckily I wasnt too far from home, but certainly makes you think :-\. Surge brakes make a HUGE difference and wont dissapate like electrics do. If your fairly flat terrain, have a BIG engine, and dont mind going easy, you should be OK.
Ironwood
Pulling a load that has a gross of about 9 ton with a truck that weighs about 3.5 ton is just plain crazy. IMO. That size truck was not designed to pull that size of payload. Yes they will pull it and if you are careful it will also stop it but at what cost? How often do you need to move it? For that size combination you must have a class 1 CDL to drive it unless you try to run farm plates and if you check with the RMV in your state you may not be able to run farm plates. If I had a machine of that size I would let someone else haul it and not have to worry about the liability.
Actually in the accident the clutch and bellhousing were in little pieces and the tranmission was in the middle of the road about one half a mile up the road from where the truck finally came to rest.
Stonebroke
Bill M made a great point. Here in PA with the amount of guys moving cattle and other livestock to auction on a commercial scale, as well as a MASSIVE amount of natural gas development the commercial sector of our DMV has really started paying attention to the 1 or 1 1/2 ton trucks towing goosenecks that are rated over the 10,000lbs. Those setups require a class A license, so keep that in mind before you start hauling loads that heavy behind a dually pickup. The fines can be pretty steep if you were to get caught, and using farm plates is not always a guarantee they will let you off the hook. My 'jack with loaded tires is much too heavy for that setup so I dont even think about it. The driver who usually moves my rig uses a 20 ton tag behind either his triaxle or sometimes on the pintle of his Kenworth tractor. It works pretty good, but nothing is as easy or convenient as a true drop=deck lowboy. Another note while we are talking about moving equipment...make sure your equipment insurance has you covered for a move. There is a logging contractor fighting with a trucking company over the loss of a 548G grapple skidder. The accident was found to be the fault of the trucker entering a turn at excessive speed and losing control of his vehicle. Long story short the trailer flipped with the machine on it and wascpmpletely destroyed. The logger did not know he was not covered, so its been a matter of footing the bill to hire a lawyer and fight with the trucking firm for damages. Something to think about if you contract your moving, or if you do it all yourself make sure all the insurance is in place should something go wrong.
Quote from: PAFaller on April 30, 2010, 11:06:31 PMHere in PA with the amount of guys moving cattle and other livestock to auction on a commercial scale, as well as a MASSIVE amount of natural gas development the commercial sector of our DMV has really started paying attention to the 1 or 1 1/2 ton trucks towing goosenecks that are rated over the 10,000lbs. Those setups require a class A license, so keep that in mind before you start hauling loads that heavy behind a dually pickup.
Isn't that only the case if your combined weight is over 26,000 lbs.? I really don't know for sure, but I found this on the DMV's website:
"CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds)."
In PA you are legal without a CDL up to 26,000 pounds combination or single vehicle.
Quote from: ohsoloco on May 01, 2010, 12:18:55 AM
Quote from: PAFaller on April 30, 2010, 11:06:31 PMHere in PA with the amount of guys moving cattle and other livestock to auction on a commercial scale, as well as a MASSIVE amount of natural gas development the commercial sector of our DMV has really started paying attention to the 1 or 1 1/2 ton trucks towing goosenecks that are rated over the 10,000lbs. Those setups require a class A license, so keep that in mind before you start hauling loads that heavy behind a dually pickup.
Isn't that only the case if your combined weight is over 26,000 lbs.? I really don't know for sure, but I found this on the DMV's website:
"CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds)."
Yes, but if your using a 20Klbs Trailer behind a 3/4 or 1 ton truck your GVWR is over 26000lbs. I don't know how you could move a skidder on a truck/trailer combo that wouldnt exceed these limits. I mean my F250 SD Ford was rated at 9000lbs, add that too the 20000lbs trailer and your at 29000..so technically a CDL is needed.. I ran into this conflict with a Trooper here many years back and Its just easier to get the CDL..
Also.. if the truck trailer is being used for private use.. Hauling your Lawn tractor, ATV's, Skid steer for Snow removal on your driveway you "don't" have to stop at a scale.. But if your using it for profit, moving equipment to another job you must stop at the scales.. I have been stopped on many occasions for not stopping at scales because of my vehicles GVWR and Potential, didn't matter what i was using it for.. Can result in a nice fine inf the Trooper or Carrier enforcment is in a pissy mood
Gday
Id buy an 8 to 14 ton tray truck with atleast a 20' myself ;) I have a 9 ton Inter Acco with a 24' tray 345 v8 on gas and 5 speed eaton and a two speed rear that dose a good job ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) another truk id like to get is a F600/700 or an F8000 which where good trucks for bush work as my grandfather had two of them when i was a kid ;) ;D ;D and you can find them pretty cheap over your way ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)
Regards Chris
Dont forget medical card, log book and pretrip inspection if your hauling heavy. We could go on and on, triangles, fire extinguiser, combo plate, blah blah. Of course RV's are exempted here in Pa. to my knowlege ::) As if some retired overweight guy driving it isn't as liable to have an accident, (perhaps strong RV lobby?)
Ironwood
U-Hauls are exempted also. So somebody never drove anything bigger than a hydundai can move his household goods.
Stonebroke
im getting ready to buy a pintle trailer for hauling my c5 i believe it weighs about 15,000. im gonna get this older triple axle trailer rated @ 20,000.
If your skidder weighs 15000, trailer cant weigh over 5000 to be legal, im guessing if trailer is good for 20000 gross it weighs over 5000 lbs.
If i trailer is good for 20,000 it is going to weigh more then 5,000 lbs
Stonebroke
Quote from: Ironwood on May 01, 2010, 08:39:45 AM
Dont forget medical card, log book and pretrip inspection if your hauling heavy. We could go on and on, triangles, fire extinguiser, combo plate, blah blah. Of course RV's are exempted here in Pa. to my knowlege ::) As if some retired overweight guy driving it isn't as liable to have an accident, (perhaps strong RV lobby?)
Ironwood
Are you saying all retired guys are overweight or is it that all overweight guys are retired? :D :D
This whole question of pulling big trailers, RV or otherwise with pickups is a very slippery slope for both the law enforcement and drivers. There are so many rules and exceptions that it ends up being more a question of how much trouble you get into when you get stopped or as others have said the mood of the law enforcement that stopped you at the time. Most all of the laws are based on the FMCSA rules that all states have been forced to adopt plus the states all have other rules that enter into the fray.
For example in Minnesota, the state licenses all 3/4 ton pickups as passenger vehicles only and will fine you if you buy a truck license for that pickup. The reason is the passenger vehicle license costs as much as 5 times more that a weight rated truck license. The problem is there is no law that allows them to even weight you with a passenger vehicle license. But if you hook a trailer up to that passenger vehicle and the combination GVWR is over 26,000 lbs, they may declare you a truck subject to the truck laws. But they still cannot weight you.
And yes, the AARP among others have demanded and got exemptions for RV's and the state enforcement has no appetite for dealing with angry old retired and yes sometimes overweight guys. ;D
Plus it depends on if you are staying within your home state. If you have to cross state borders all rules change and many of the more restrictive rules apply.
I have hauled many loads, big and small, one by mistake that weighed 48,000 lbs on a gooseneck trailer behind both a 3/4 ton and one ton dualy. It was not so much a problem pulling them as it was stopping them that is a problem, especially with those electric brakes. The better braking system for those bigger trailers behind a pickup would be vacuum over hydraulic, but that requires a vacuum pump on the truck and hydraulic brakes on the trailer.
The other problem is your tire rating. That is the first thing a DOT guy will look at when evaluating load carying ability of your trailer. Look at the rating on each tire and add all tire ratings up and that will be the maximum you are allowed to carry.
The answer for the question is that a one ton can haul that load with a good gooseneck trailer with enough load rating. But you have to maintain those brakes and tires and drive defensively at all times. And know all the laws and stay as far away from those DOT guys as you can. In other words, stay out of trouble and look safe and they will probably leave you alone.
Before I had my own mill, I hauled some logs on a 7000# GVW trailer that I am sure were way over then hauling capacity of the little Olds Bravada I pulled it with. I hope to never exceed weight capacities that much again. It was an 18' solid deck car haul trailer and I loaded it with 2 layers of logs, many 16 and a few 18' long and averaged about 19-20" DBH on the butt logs. I only had to go about 2 miles with no hills, but I surely would have had problems stopping if a little kid ran into the road. I had load equalizer springs on the hitch which was the only way I kept the front wheels on the road. After that I vowed to use a truck meant for the task I ask it to do. I also have my CDL which would have been in jeopardy had I gotten caught. They don't go easy on those who know better but do it any ways. The main reason I've decided to have the right truck is because I thought later how foolish I was if a kid ran out in the road. I will not take those chances again. Too much at risk.
CDL liscence required for truck over 26000
any trailer over 10000 requires, fire extinguisher, flares/triangles. seat belt, first aid, chocks, inspection, medical card and more I can't remember right now
any combination over 26000 with over 10000 trailer requires CDL A
these trailer rules are federal so beyond states
MY OPINION
if you are hauling a trailer over 10000 pounds GVW read the federal DOT rules and comply....as said it is not if you can get it done...it is what if a mobile home driven by a young bad driver crashes into you and you are faulted due to lack of paperwork...your insurance company just might bail
happy motoring
our 20000lbs gooseneck weighs 4500lbs so we could haul 15500lbs
Quote from: Gary_C on May 01, 2010, 11:31:35 AM
For example in Minnesota, the state licenses all 3/4 ton pickups as passenger vehicles only and will fine you if you buy a truck license for that pickup. The reason is the passenger vehicle license costs as much as 5 times more that a weight rated truck license.
That's interesting. Here in PA a passenger vehicle registration costs $36 (or something close to that). Half ton pickup is fifty-something, 3/4 ton is $85, and a one ton is $156. According to how my truck is registered, I can haul 200 pounds more than the GVWR on the door sticker :-\
Here in Minnesota, Land of 10,000 Taxes, there was a time when a new 3/4 ton pickup could cost as much as $600 per year for license, which was based mostly on value. However they lowered that somewhat as it was excessive and now the max I believe is somewhere around $400 per year and it goes down every year of age till it gets down to about $75 per year.
On the other hand, a 1 ton truck license costs $125 per year and stays the same as it gets older. But in the past, some DOT guys have consficated those truck licenses if they caught people driving to work, to the grocery store, or to church and made the driver park the vehicle and buy the high priced passenger version. And no refunds on the consficated truck license.
But then the conflict was there is no provision in the law for even checking the weight of any passenger vehicle.
Yes, those pickup license requirements are a mess. But for the most part the DOT will leave you alone as long as you do look OK. But I think the DOT does shake their heads and probably closes their eyes when someone goes by with a pickup or a car pulling some questionable looking trailer. But they can get real pissy if it looks like you are doing something for profit. That's illegal you know. ::)
In some states, sales tax revenues and general fund "taxes' are linked to vehical values and such. It would be more realistic to just sales tax stuff and keep vehical registrations reasonable it keeps folks like us from being creative :D Idaho or Washington was one such state 15 years ago. I guess Minnestota also.
Ironwood
My gooseneck is only 14K, so obviously if my skidder weighs 14k then I would be overweight by the weight of the trailer. But, I run the machine right to the front of the trailer so there is quite a bit of the weight on the truck. I've never ran it across a scale, but I'm willing to bet I'm legal on the trailer weight. I intend to run it across the truck scale at work to see where everything sits.
That brings up a good point. Makes no difference how much weight you are carying, it's the total of the GVWR's of your vehicle and trailer that determines if you are over 26,000 lbs. and need a CDL and all the other goodies.
I'd add that the terrain is pretty flat in this area, I would be much more apprehensive of using this setup in mountains. BTW, surge brakes are illegal here if I am not mistaken. We had a 14k trailer we had to convert to electric brakes at work a few years back to pass DOT inpections, they had outlawed them that year. That was fine by me, I thought those surge brakes were about the worst thing this side of no brakes. Maybe there are some that were better, but these would cause the tow vehicle to really get bouncing, they about sent me out of control several times. I would truly rather have had no trailer brakes.
Quote from: bill m on April 30, 2010, 07:48:08 PM
Pulling a load that has a gross of about 9 ton with a truck that weighs about 3.5 ton is just plain crazy. IMO. That size truck was not designed to pull that size of payload. Yes they will pull it and if you are careful it will also stop it but at what cost? How often do you need to move it? For that size combination you must have a class 1 CDL to drive it unless you try to run farm plates and if you check with the RMV in your state you may not be able to run farm plates. If I had a machine of that size I would let someone else haul it and not have to worry about the liability.
Just to play devil's advocate here, are you saying a 10,000 lb single axle tractor shouldn't haul a 40,000 lb. trailer? A gooseneck trailer puts a lot of weight onto the truck, making it a much safer combo than a bumper hitch trailer.
A single axle tractor is not a 1 ton. A 1 ton does not have heavy enough springs, axles, drive shafts, transmissions and all other related components to be pulling a load of that size. Tractors ( single, tandem, or tri axle) are designed to pull.
The GCVW on one tons has been creeping up, I don't know just how far. I think that most one tons do have a sufficient driveline, or at least my Dodge does. While I don't advocate doing the things I do, it's held up to loads in the range of 30,000lbs combined weight. My truck has a Dana 80 rear axle, and a driveline that is about as big as most of the single axle IH trucks I've worked on that are under CDL. The Cummins engine uses a No.2 bellhousing and a clutch that would be the same size as if it was in an F-800/FL-70 sized truck. My truck has 167k on it with the original U-joints, and makes 1,200 ft/lbs of torque. I don't see a catastrophic clutch or driveshaft failure in this setup. You are allowed to put 15% of the trailer weight on the truck. Now you are at 9850/16,150 weight distribution between the truck and trailer. The 2,850 weight transfer doesn't overload the trucks weight rating.
Weight break down:
Truck-7,000? (big variable here)
Trailer-5,000
Skidder-14,000
15% weight transfer-2,850
Legality is another issue. I'm not saying anyone should go out and try to haul anything, this is purely hypothetical. :-X
one more thing, say you are registered correctly at 25,500 pounds, so no CDL. Then you get pulled over and with a load you actually weigh 27,000 pounds, not just overweight but no CDL...could get interesting
Gday
You blokes have got too many state rules :o :) :) ;) :D :D Overhere we have things pretty simple a ute/pickup can only tow a trailer with a max weight of about 8000lbs ;) on a car licence
then you get into truck licences
Light rigid is about 10000lbs payload 2 axle single drive or 4x4
Medum rigid is upto about 18000lbs payload 2 axle single axle drive or 4x4
Heavy Rigid will let you have upto about 30000lbs payload form bogie drive 3 axle truck upto tridrive twinnsteer ;)
MR & HR will let you pull a single or dual axle trailer with a total weight of 19000lbs on its own without upgrading to a Heavy combinaton licence ;)
Then you move into Heavy Combinations eg Articulated Semis ;)
HC is from a 2 axle singledrive pulling a single axle trailer upto a twinsteer bogiedrive Primemover and trailer with upto 4 dual wheel axles
MC Is B doubles & Roadtrains upto about 180ton or 360,000lbs gross weight pulling 3 trailers but they are on restricted routes around australia ;)
asfar as Rego is concerned a 30000lb gross weight single drive traytruck like the Acco is $1200 au pa for rego and a bogie drive Primemover and triaxle trailer will set you back about $6000 pa including Tac insurance Transport Accedent Commision insurance is to cover the third partys Hospital ,Care and Rehab costs in the state of Victoria but also covers any Vic regod veihical in any state if you have a prang ;)
stamp duty is $40 per thousand of the approx value of the vehichal whenever it changes hands and is re Regod roadworthy by the new owner ;) but most put it down as the bare min if its a private sale ;) :D :D ;D
Utes and Cars will set you back Between $350 and $550 pa inc Tac and 10%gst depending on how many seats they have ;) My ute costs $350 pa in rego costs
asfar as Licences go they are either 3,5 or 10 year terms a 3 year licence will cost about $80 total ;)
Car licences are State by State and Truck Licences are a National Licence to stop prof truckies having upto 8 different tickets at one time ;)
Regards Chris
Quote from: woodmills1 on May 02, 2010, 09:54:28 PM
one more thing, say you are registered correctly at 25,500 pounds, so no CDL. Then you get pulled over and with a load you actually weigh 27,000 pounds, not just overweight but no CDL...could get interesting
Get out your checkbook, this ones going to be expensive.
Things to remember here. Anything over 10,000 lb trailer requires a cdl in PA. 10001 lb, with a 7000 lb truck pulling it is a class a cdl. And the DOT guys feel they have to justify their paycheck, so they are looking. Old big trucks are out there, if you are willing to make them safe. I got a 1970 Fleetstar, with 13000 original miles on it. 500.00. guy was selling it for scrap. I put new maxis on it, made sure all lines were not rotted, and the tires were perfect. Im into my old hauler for less than 2000.00 after fixing things up. There are a lot of these old trucks there for guys like us that don't haul a tractor trailer every day, and what the heck, most loggers don't care about the 6-71 screaming away, like truckers do. And my 1 ton IH truck doesn't hate me anymore.
QuoteAnything over 10,000 lb trailer requires a cdl in PA. 10001 lb, with a 7000 lb truck pulling it is a class a cdl.
My license has on the back Class: C-Single/Comb < 26,001
You don't need a CDL in PA until you go over 26,000 GVW or CGVW
I wouldn't try it. I have the fine reciepts to show you your wrong. ;D >:( IF that trailer is REGISTERED @ 10,001 or more you must have a Class A and med card. And you better have that trailer being pulled by a truck with a combination tag or apportioned tag. What confuses most is for example a loaded F550 reg @ 17,500 towing a 10K regestered trailer. No you don't need a cdl if you keep the trailer at 10K and your total combo doesn't exceed 26,000. But you could have a 3/4 ton pickup pulling a empty 14K rated GN , total weight together empty is probably only 11 or 12 K and you better have all the above listed stuff even tho you are far short of 26 K combined because of the regestered weights.
CDL load with no CDL= $550.50 donation + DL suspension for 6 mos + no CDL test for 6 mos after you get lisc back= your really screwed now buddy!
No Med card= $550.50 donation
10,001# + regestered trailer being towed by non combination regesterd truck= $2K donation to start for 1st 2K#'s over + $50 for every 500# over that.
Ex... Truck scales @ 8K, reg GVW @ 9K not in combination, towing 12K reg trailer that weighs 5K empty. LEgal??? heck no.. It all goes back to paperwork. You are on paper 4K over weight. Just the weight fine would be around $2,200.00. Sucks?? You bet! Slap a red tag on er and call the tow truck.
+ all the other b.s. fines that go along with a traffic stop all = lots o dough!
Barpincher, where can you read up on "the rules"? I was thinking the same as Brian_Rhoad.
There are state and federal rules. The Fed rules say that a 10,001 trailer and a combo of 26,001 and up is Class A. That doesn't mean that a state can't make the rules stricter, however.
I have 10,000 GVW trucks 16,000GVW Gooseneck and 14,000 GVW dump trailer with 26,000 combination tags on trucks and am 100% legal. You CANNOT get a CDL license for that combination. If you have any trailer that is a gooseneck or fifth wheel you must have combination tags on the truck even if the trailer is rated at 100 lbs. The >10,000 GVW trailer CDL was changed in the 1986 to match what the Federal DOT wanted for all states. There is also a loop hole where you can tow a 10,000 GVW trailer with a 26,000 GVW truck.
I have the PA DOT CDL training manual right here and that is what the regulations are.
Here is what the CDL manual says.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/2836/Scan2.jpg)
I just got poking around and found this info. form the federal DOT site:
"If you operate exclusively in intrastate commerce , you must comply with applicable State and local regulations. The only Federal regulations that are applicable to intrastate operations are: the commercial driver's license (CDL) requirement, for drivers operating commercial motor vehicles"
The federal DOT regulations require a Class A CDL for any vehicle pulling a trailer that weighs (grosses) more than 5 ton...I assume this is only if it's a business ???
Not nitpicking, just know from reading the book that while CDL in PA is anything over 26000 lbs, if you have a trailer over 10000 lbs, regardless of the truck towing, it is considered a CDL class A trailer, and you must have the license to tow it legally. Does everyone borrow my 14000 lb trailer anyway? Absolutely. And I tell anyone who does that they are on their own if they get stopped. I just don't want anyone on here to get stopped and hung out to dry by this stupid technicality. Any trailer over 10000 lbs makes your combination a class A CDL in PA. If mr DOT wants to get you on this he can. Its stupid but it is the way it is.
My drivers license comes from PA not the Federal Government. In PA you cannot get a CDL on a vehicle under 26,000 GVW!!!! Read the part of the CDL manual that I posted above.
For my peace of mind, I have a class A CDL. Now no worries! If I'm hauling one ATV on my 10 ton GN or at the max weight, I just do not have to "pucker" at the sight of a lawman. I'm trying to do all I can to make my life as stress free as I can, because, there's enough going to happen anyhow. No sense in me adding to it, if I can help it. Besides, here in Texas, a CDL renews every 6 years and a regular license every 4!
I will repeat if your trailer is over 10,000, you are federal
If your trailer is over 10,000 and your truck trailer combo is over 26001 you are federal class A...need to get the paper and pay what ever paper theysend you
I will add it is not can you get it home, it is what if some thing goes wrong
I get lotsa federal pape work, i fill it out, I send the check
I am hoping I test my insuance only ifin I bein the fault guy, not the bad paper work dude
If the trailer GVWR is over 10,001LBS and together when the GVCWR (gross vehicle combination weight rating) is over 26,001 lbs. you need a Class "A" CDL. Doesn't matter what state you are in.
Brian....what exactly are you saying? That you can't take a test with what you have? What is it you are putting a CDL on? CDL is a drivers liscense I thought, not something you put on a vehicle. My employee and I took our first A test in my F550 and a 10 ton tag with electric brakes so yes you can take a A test with less than a semi or bigger airbrake equipped truck. Can you explain what you mean?
Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on May 04, 2010, 12:12:49 PM
My drivers license comes from PA not the Federal Government. In PA you cannot get a CDL on a vehicle under 26,000 GVW!!!! Read the part of the CDL manual that I posted above.
You can get a CDL and drive your Toyota Prius if you wish. There are no rules that say you cannot get a CDL, unless you have been disqualified for some offense.
Quote from: woodmills1 on May 04, 2010, 09:58:15 PM
I will repeat if your trailer is over 10,000, you are federal
If your trailer is over 10,000 and your truck trailer combo is over 26001 you are federal class A...need to get the paper and pay what ever paper theysend you
Even though the feds (FMCSA) wrote the rules so that all states will have uniform requirements, there are few strictly federal requirements. FMCSA only has jurisdiction of the things that truly pertain to interstate commerce and not to intrastate commerce. So the actual laws that you have to comply with are the state rules for the state you are operating within at the time. And if you drive into the next state, you operate under their rules. States rights rule.
And the states have, for the most part and sometimes under much pressure and threats, adopted the FMCSA rules and yes sometimes with their own twists that are spelled out as allowable in the FMCSA rules.
And as I have said before, these rules are so complex and full of exemptions, exceptions, and other references plus they are subject to local interpretations that all I can say is watch out for your rear end and especially where you keep your pocketbook.
"It's a jungle out there!"
You cannot take a CDL test in a vehicle or combination that is 26,000 GVW or CGVW or less, because a CDL is not needed to operate such vehicle. A F550 and 10 ton trailer is over the 26,000 CGVW so a CDL would be needed to operate it.
You operate under the rules of the state where your drivers license is from. You cannot have more than 1 drivers license so you follow the rules of your home state where the license is from. Other states may not enforce their rules on an out of state driver as long as that driver is legal according to their home state regulations.
I've been through all of this with PA DOT and I know I am correct.
I have traveled all over the east coast with trucks and trailers up to 26,000 GVW and CGVW and have never had a problem because I am following the PA regulations.
I guess these rules have been confusing us as well because we have not been specific enough. There are three classes of CDL, class A, B, and C. And yes you must have the proper class of vehicle to take the test. And after you pass the test, you can drive any vehicle in your class or a lower class, if you have the endorsement for that vehicle. The endorsements are combination, air brake, doubles & triples, hazmat, and school bus.
Here is the federal requirements which are the minimums for all states.
§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups. (a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:
(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).
(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.
(a)(3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).
(b) Representative vehicle. For purposes of taking the driving test in accordance with §383.113, a representative vehicle for a given vehicle group contained in §383.91(a), is any commercial motor vehicle which meets the definition of that vehicle group.
(c) Relation between vehicle groups. Each driver applicant who desires to operate in a different commercial motor vehicle group from the one which his/her CDL authorizes shall be required to retake and pass all related tests, except the following:
(c)(1) A driver who has passed the knowledge and skills tests for a combination vehicle (Group A) may operate a heavy straight vehicle (Group B) or a small vehicle (Group C), provided that he/she possesses the requisite endorsement(s); and
(c)(2) A driver who has passed the knowledge and skills tests for a heavy straight vehicle (Group B) may operate any small vehicle (Group C), provided that he/she possesses the requisite endorsement(s).
And here are the endorsements.
§383.93 Endorsements. (a) General. In addition to taking and passing the knowledge and skills tests described in Subpart G of this part, all persons who operate or expect to operate the type(s) of motor vehicles described in paragraph (b) of this section shall take and pass specialized tests to obtain each endorsement. The State shall issue CDL endorsements only to drivers who successfully complete the tests.
(b) Endorsement descriptions. An operator must obtain State-issued endorsements to his/her CDL to operate commercial motor vehicles which are:
(b)(1) Double/triple trailers;
(b)(2) Passenger vehicles;
(b)(3) Tank vehicles;
(b)(4) Used to transport hazardous materials as defined in §383.5; or
(b)(5) School buses.
(c) Endorsement testing requirements. The following tests are required for the endorsements contained in paragraph (b) of this section:
(c)(1) Double/Triple Trailers — a knowledge test;
(c)(2) Passenger — a knowledge and a skills test;
(c)(3) Tank vehicle — a knowledge test;
(c)(4) Hazardous Materials —a knowledge test; and
(c)(5) School bus — a knowledge and a skills test.
What should I do if there is no weight rating on my trailer? It was "homemade". It does have 2 10k axles and tires that match, but the registration says nothing about weight.
Best way to determine capacity is to start with tire ratings as the DOT will. Add up the ratings of all the tires on the trailer and that will be the maximum capacity you can haul. Course you must have axles and other components at least good enough to support the tire capacity.
When I needed a Class "A" CDL, I did not personally own a truck, at that time, that would qualify. I went to a local company that trains and assists people with their CDL. They have trucks set-up just for that purpose. The vehicles meet all the requirements of this state and the "Feds". The cost varies on the amount of training required. Since I already had the skills needed, the training (test drive to show I had the necessary skills to pass the test) was minimal, as was the cost. The school had a working agreement with the TXDOT drivers license place for a time slot (every Thursday afternoon) and an Officer was assigned just for the school. We used the schools qualified truck ( 5ton, single axle, auto trans. tractor with a pup trailer), took test, got license. The whole experience was easy, convenient, not expensive ($150). Bonus, with a class "A" you are pretty much licensed for what ever you are driving (NOT HAZ MAT) with our normal loads (tractors, logs, dirt, ATVs). The whole process is reasonably painless, and, has been pointed out by several, much less expensive than ONE legal incident with any law enforcement agency! Simplify your life. :)
Quote from: sjfarkas on May 06, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
What should I do if there is no weight rating on my trailer? It was "homemade". It does have 2 10k axles and tires that match, but the registration says nothing about weight.
I have a Homemade 20K GN trailer (2 10k Dexter Axles), To get it approved for 20K Weight rating i had to have proof of axle rating (Tag on axle should sufice) Then it was inspected by a Carrier Enforcment Officer for structural integrity and I got the 20K tags
Quote from: JayG on May 06, 2010, 10:39:18 AM
When I needed a Class "A" CDL, I did not personally own a truck, at that time, that would qualify. I went to a local company that trains and assists people with their CDL. They have trucks set-up just for that purpose. The vehicles meet all the requirements of this state and the "Feds". The cost varies on the amount of training required. Since I already had the skills needed, the training (test drive to show I had the necessary skills to pass the test) was minimal, as was the cost. The school had a working agreement with the TXDOT drivers license place for a time slot (every Thursday afternoon) and an Officer was assigned just for the school. We used the schools qualified truck ( 5ton, single axle, auto trans. tractor with a pup trailer), took test, got license. The whole experience was easy, convenient, not expensive ($150). Bonus, with a class "A" you are pretty much licensed for what ever you are driving (NOT HAZ MAT) with our normal loads (tractors, logs, dirt, ATVs). The whole process is reasonably painless, and, has been pointed out by several, much less expensive than ONE legal incident with any law enforcement agency! Simplify your life. :)
Totally Agree with This.. Anyone with a 3/4 ton truck and a 20K GN trailer can use taht rig to get the CDL. It will just have air brake restrictions
No Brian, gotta say you are def wrong on that. Yes I had my 550 reg as combo for 33K. But I also let a guy take my 3/4 ton pickup with a GN trailer and that I have a combo on that truck for 25,900. He took his A test but has an air brake restriction.
Quote(b) Representative vehicle. For purposes of taking the driving test in accordance with §383.113, a representative vehicle for a given vehicle group contained in §383.91(a), is any commercial motor vehicle which meets the definition of that vehicle group.
Garyc posted the above from the Federal regulations. If someone takes a test in a vehicle that is not in that class it's because the tester didn't know the regulations. Any vehicle or combination of vehicles under 26,001 GVW is not a commercial vehicle.
Quote(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).
I've been through all of this with PA DOT and have been told I'm right.
Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on May 06, 2010, 09:26:11 PM
Any vehicle or combination of vehicles under 26,001 GVW is not a commercial vehicle.
Brian, did you mean to say "Any vehicle or combination of vehicles under 26,001 GVW is not a
Class A commercial vehicle."?
In PA it is not a commercial vehicle. It may be in other states.
Class "A" is combination over 26,000 CGVW.
Class "B" is a single vehicle over 26,000 GVW.
So yes, any vehicle or combination of vehicles under 26,001 GVW is not a commercial vehicle.....in PA.
My license is a Class "C". On the back it reads; CLASS: C-Single/Comb<26,001
I just renewed my license last month so it is up to date.
Some states call a pick up a commercial vehicle but you don't need a CDL to drive it. Some states call a car that is used for business a commercial vehicle, such as a small station wagon used to transport medical lab tests and blood. Some states call any vehicle with a business name on it a commercial vehicle. Every state has it's own definition of what is commercial.
In PA before 1986 you needed a "CDL", it wasn't called thet then, to tow a trailer over 10,000 GVW. You could drive a single vehicle rated up to 30,000 GVW at that time with a regular license. PA DOT changed the regulations in 1986 to conform to what the Federal DOT wanted all states to be.
I live near an Interstate scale at a rest area. Both state and federal DOT officers "patrol" the area roads. I've never had a problem with my trucks and trailer with my class c license.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf
If I got pulled over with an empty trailer and no weight rating on the registration they make the determination by adding up tire weight limits?
Quote from: sjfarkas on May 07, 2010, 12:35:26 AM
If I got pulled over with an empty trailer and no weight rating on the registration they make the determination by adding up tire weight limits?
Empty shouldn't be a problem.. At a scale you will most likely get green lighted if empty.. Its when your loaded that will draw attention and if you get pulled over and checked that they will then try to determine what your trailer can safely haul.. Yes they will add up Tire Weight Ratings, Rim ratings..ECT...
In California i was in an inspection with my '06 F350 and i was questioned because i was running Load range E tires and Aftermarket Gear Alloy 711MB wheels.. I had to get a Spec Sheet from Gear Alloy stating the Rated Weights on the Wheels so they could figure if they were strong enough to support my Truck and Load.. Carrier Enforcment can get picky when your hauling heavy loads
I use a twenty four foot goose neck with 20,000 gvw, behind my one ton GMC one ton duramax with airbags, to move my 508 cat skidder. Pulls great just have to make sure the trailer brakes are working!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20657/2538/PhotoMoto9501139544128.jpg)
Quote from: mahonda on May 07, 2010, 07:38:50 AM
I use a twenty four foot goose neck with 20,000 gvw, behind my one ton GMC one ton duramax with airbags, to move my 508 cat skidder. Pulls great just have to make sure the trailer brakes are working!
A little over weight are we? That machine weighs over 17000 lbs. and I can't believe your trailer only weighs 3000 lbs.
Quote from: bill m on May 07, 2010, 07:56:59 AM
I can't believe your trailer only weighs 3000 lbs.
That trailer probably weights 6K+ lbs.
thats a accident waiting to happen, this is why the DOT gets on the small guys
If he has a fair amount of weight on the pick up, which it looks like he does to me, then he could well be legal. If the pickup has 3000 lbs of the load on the rear axle and the truck is rated for that much, the trailer should have a borderline legal amount of weight on it. Yes, definately you want your trailer brakes to be 100 percent!
nice foggy morning, wet roads, glad it anit me hauling it.
I think you guys are all missing a few brain cells if you routinely haul loads like that around behind either a 1 ton or 3/4 ton truck. These are accidents waiting to happen all to save a few bucks on hiring a genuine float truck.
If we tried something like that up here the fines would probably bankrupt us and we would lose our license for a long time and probably never get insured again. And thats without getting into an accident.
No Brian, You are deff wrong. It is comm vehicle, it is ok they ran it thru the wringer to get verification before it was okd to use it so no mistake on their end to test in it and Yes it's been thru a bunch of Dot stops and I had everything I needed. Maybe you have different cops in your part of the stateLOL. Send them my way so I can save a few bucks.
I just looked at the Ford website and an F350 has up to 18,700 towing capacity. F450 has 24,700.
A 2011 3500HD silverado will tow 20,000lbs. A GN rated for 20k weights around 6k itself. So that means you could put ~14k on the trailer.
According to Federal laws over 26,001lbs combined truck and trailer GCWR (2011 3500HD GCWR is 27,500) and trailer over 10,001lbs you would need a class A CDL.
Quote from: mahonda on May 07, 2010, 07:38:50 AM
I use a twenty four foot goose neck with 20,000 gvw, behind my one ton GMC one ton duramax with airbags, to move my 508 cat skidder. Pulls great just have to make sure the trailer brakes are working!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20657/2538/PhotoMoto9501139544128.jpg)
Mahonda the coppers overhere would be tearing ya a new one before you even got outa the cab with that one Mate ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D
Quote from: mahonda on May 07, 2010, 07:38:50 AM
I use a twenty four foot goose neck with 20,000 gvw, behind my one ton GMC one ton duramax with airbags, to move my 508 cat skidder. Pulls great just have to make sure the trailer brakes are working!
He can easily be legal with that load on that combination. I have a F-350 dualy with a 24 ft flatbed and hauled even heavier loads than that. For example, that pickup and trailer probably weighs somewhere between 12,000-14,000 lbs empty and with a load on the trailer, the pickup alone will probably scale that much if you load it properly. So then the 20,000 GVWR of the trailer is available just for your load. So a 17,000 lb skidder would be easily legal if you put enough weight on the hitch.
The only concern I would have is stopping that load on long and steep downhill roads without an engine brake. But a good driver that knows how to get in a low gear before starting down and uses "stab braking" can handle it. ;D
About 15 years ago we bought a C70 Chev, single axel and wondered how we shoul liscense it. We stopped at a weigh station and visited with the fellow there and followed his reccomendation. We have kept with the same liscense since that time and load the truck till it's tongue hangs out without ever being stopped (we have never gone by the weigh station) ;)
After reading this thread, I assumed it was a 26,000 liscense, but it is a 36,000 farm tag. Is this still OK without a CDL?
I dont think u can put enough weight on your truck, legally, you'll be over for the rating on your truck, put to much then your lite on the front axle, then u lose braking and steering abilty.
Gooseneck and fifth wheel hitches are mounted ahead of the rear axle just a bit. This is to put some of the load on the front axle and to help avoid the rear end getting pushed around in a corner. You are allowed to put 15% of the trailer load on the hitch with a GN, and 10% with a bumper hitch. You can put weight on the truck until you hit your max truck gvw. Axle weight ratings (and tires) on trucks totalled up exceed the total gvw of the truck. This way you can carry your load in different configurations, like in the bed, or a plow hanging off the front. Example: my '99 Dodge 2500 has a 4850 front axle and a 6000+ rear, but only an 8800 gvw. Tires add up to around 12000 with load range E.
most long bed pickups cant get the the hitch to far ahead of the axle, short boxes a little further, u can still only put weight on the truck up no the max on the door sticker, even if it adds up to more the DOT uses the lower rating, tires mite add up to 12,000, but truck doesnt have a GVW of that.
Quote from: Bro. Noble on May 08, 2010, 10:22:41 AM
After reading this thread, I assumed it was a 26,000 liscense, but it is a 36,000 farm tag. Is this still OK without a CDL?
There is a provision in the FMCSA and most states have adopted it, to exempt farmers from the provisions of the CDL. It must be a vehicle that is under the control of a farmer, be hauling agricultural products, and be within 150 miles of the farm where the products came from.
But what do I know as I got in trouble for following those rules this winter. It all depends on who stops you and how much money the government is short at that time. ::)
My hitch in my 2500 dodge is dead center of the box, right over the axle. I pull a Big Tex with the 48" spread axles and I back my skidder on. I keep it about 2 feet away from where the hitch goes up. Puts the truck nice and level.
Mahonda: that is one heck of a load. How does that duramax handle it?
Quote from: Gary_C on May 08, 2010, 11:36:00 AM
Quote from: Bro. Noble on May 08, 2010, 10:22:41 AM
After reading this thread, I assumed it was a 26,000 liscense, but it is a 36,000 farm tag. Is this still OK without a CDL?
There is a provision in the FMCSA and most states have adopted it, to exempt farmers from the provisions of the CDL. It must be a vehicle that is under the control of a farmer, be hauling agricultural products, and be within 150 miles of the farm where the products came from.
But what do I know as I got in trouble for following those rules this winter. It all depends on who stops you and how much money the government is short at that time. ::)
I believe Kentucky allows 38,000 GVW for Farm Tags, without a CDL, but with same restrictions that Gary mentioned. And unfortunately... it really does depend on who stops you and what kind of mood they are in that day...
Warren
Quote from: gunman63 on May 08, 2010, 11:30:08 AM
most long bed pickups cant get the the hitch to far ahead of the axle, short boxes a little further, u can still only put weight on the truck up no the max on the door sticker, even if it adds up to more the DOT uses the lower rating, tires mite add up to 12,000, but truck doesnt have a GVW of that.
I'm only talking about an inch or two. If you buy a factory hitch with mounting kit, it will not be dead center over the axle. When I mention axle and tire weights in relation to gvw, I'm trying to point out that you have a little leeway in how you achieve weight distribution.
Quote from: Gary_C on May 08, 2010, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: mahonda on May 07, 2010, 07:38:50 AM
I use a twenty four foot goose neck with 20,000 gvw, behind my one ton GMC one ton duramax with airbags, to move my 508 cat skidder. Pulls great just have to make sure the trailer brakes are working!
He can easily be legal with that load on that combination. I have a F-350 dualy with a 24 ft flatbed and hauled even heavier loads than that. For example, that pickup and trailer probably weighs somewhere between 12,000-14,000 lbs empty and with a load on the trailer, the pickup alone will probably scale that much if you load it properly. So then the 20,000 GVWR of the trailer is available just for your load. So a 17,000 lb skidder would be easily legal if you put enough weight on the hitch.
I believe you are 100% wrong about this. A 20,000 GVWR is the maximum that trailer can weigh with a load on it. So if that trailer weighs 6,000 lbs. the most you could put on it is 14,000 lbs. Doesn't matter how you distribute the weight onto the truck.
A 20k gvw means he has two 10k axles. That means you can put 10k on each axle, and 3,000 (15% of 20k) on the truck. If you only put 10k on each axle, and nothing on the truck, you would be out of control.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 08, 2010, 10:18:21 PM
A 20k gvw means he has two 10k axles. That means you can put 10k on each axle
From that 20k you have to also subtract out the weight of the trailer. So if the trailer weights 6k then you can only put 14k on the trailer.
Y'all have some heavy trailers.. my 32' 20Klbs trailer weighs in at 4950lbs and i have a 24' Longhorn 20Klbs trailer that weighs 4450lbs. My 3/4 and 1 tons have handled me hauling my 440, 550G Dozer and Link Belt Processor around great, I now have a F450 to do it. As for GN Hitch position.. The ball should be 2-3 inches in front of the center of the rear axle.. I have towed with one directly over the rear axle and its easy to lighten the front end up.. Keep good brakes, use low gears for hills and don't forget to use your head and its not a problem.. Be a Dipchit and try to hotdog it around and your lookin to be in a accident.. gotta use your head and it works well
As for just being cheap and not wanting to pay for a Semi and Lowboy to transport me.. Nope.. why pay someone else to do a job that i have equipped myself to handle?
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 09, 2010, 10:44:04 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 08, 2010, 10:18:21 PM
A 20k gvw means he has two 10k axles. That means you can put 10k on each axle
From that 20k you have to also subtract out the weight of the trailer. So if the trailer weights 6k then you can only put 14k on the trailer.
No, you put 10k on each axle and 3k on the truck. You can haul 17k.
OHSOLOCO and the rest of you Pa guys: to answer your question in Pa you can pick up a truckers handbook at most notary's. They also have a 1-800-932-4600 to call to answer any questions you may have that the book doesn't answer or you want clarified.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 09, 2010, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 09, 2010, 10:44:04 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on May 08, 2010, 10:18:21 PM
A 20k gvw means he has two 10k axles. That means you can put 10k on each axle
From that 20k you have to also subtract out the weight of the trailer. So if the trailer weights 6k then you can only put 14k on the trailer.
No, you put 10k on each axle and 3k on the truck. You can haul 17k.
Dave,
What you are referring to is weight distribution. That 10k on each axle includes the weight of the trailer. Your trailer fully loaded cannot weigh more than 20k
Quote from: BARPINCHER on May 09, 2010, 08:28:00 PM
OHSOLOCO and the rest of you Pa guys: to answer your question in Pa you can pick up a truckers handbook at most notary's. They also have a 1-800-932-4600 to call to answer any questions you may have that the book doesn't answer or you want clarified.
I assume I could pick one up at the local DMV as well? Got one real close to me. It would be nice to go in there, get what I need, and be out of there in less than a minute for a change :D
You're right, the weight of the trailer is included. 6k+17k=23k. You put 3k on the truck, leaving 20k on the axles. I can't explain it any simpler than that. You're allowable payload for a 20k trailer that weighs 6k is 17k, provided you put the proper tongue weight on the truck.
I'm not arguing what is legal for the truck, the license, or whatever laws are applicable in any state, just the mechanics of allowable payload. This is pretty simple math. When you are scaled, the truck is weighed on each axle, and the total added up to see if you are within the limits of your equipment. If the officer wants to, he can delve into tongue weights and manufacturers GCWR.
My cousin got pulled over in PA with his 1 ton w/ GN and the sheriff made him leave his trailer with big bobcat with landclearing head and quad on the highway because it exceeded the GVW of the truck . The sheriff would not allow the tag on the trailer to come into play, which is of course total BS. Fortunately the trailer and load where still there the next day (he got a hotel that night and just drove back out and grabbed it after calling his police buddies) and the judge threw the case out, but it sure mucked up his plans that day, the next and the day he went to court. It really does come down to who pulls you over and if they had their coffee that morning. If you have a handy state guideline book or internet printout, I would carry it with you at all times and be prepared to NICELY inform the officer why you are legal even if he or she is a total jerk about it. You WON"T win a shouting match with an officer on the highway, just ask my cousin. Sure he had his day in court and won, but it was a phyric victory
Good luck.
Dave
This seems to be going in circles, but I will try again with an example from experience, not speculation.
You have a one ton dually pickup and 20K rated trailer. The empty weight of the combination is 12,000 lbs on the scale. Now you put a 20,000 lb skidder on the trailer. When you put the combination pickup and trailer with skidder on the scale, you find the pickup alone weighs 12,000 lbs, the trailer with skidder weighs 20,000 lbs, and the combination weighs 32,000 lbs. As long as you are not exceeding the tire rating on any axle and you are licensed for these loads on both pickup and trailer, you are perfectly legal.
I do run a similiar setup. I have a one ton dually pickup that is licensed at 15,000 lbs and a gooseneck grain trailer that is rated right at 24,000 lbs and is licensed at 26,000 lbs. The empty weight of the combination is between 13,000 and 14,000 lbs. So I am legally licensed for 41,000 lbs on the combination but probably could not legally scale more than 38,000 lbs because of tire ratings on the dual tandems on the trailer. And that means that I can load 24,000 lbs of corn or beans in that trailer and that is about 428 bushels of corn.
But all of this does not mean that you could not get a ticket for this load if you met up with a sour DOT officer who went by the GVWR on the pickup that the pickup manufacturers lower for liability reasons. Most DOT guys will just check tire ratings and compare those to actual load.
On a semi tractor/trailer you have the additional problem of meeting the bridge formulas and so they have to measure axle spacings. But on a pickup combination it is not possible to exceed the bridge weight limits.
Against my better judgement, I will join in again.
As previously stated,I have hauled many loads just like the one in the picture posted above.Not dangerous or stupid, just trying to make a liveing for my family. For big equipment, I do use a lowboy. For loads I can haul (and I mean safely) I do it myself. Sure, I know all these regs are put in place to protect us. Any one of us on here know what we can do safely without someone else telling us, or we should. Is it legal? A whole different story than the original question. I bet very few of us do Everything legal every day. The truckers around my area leave an obvious infraction in order to appease the DOT guys. They say that they(DOT) will find something wrong no matter what, so leave something in plain view. Then get back to makeing money. I guess finally, I don"t advocate others to be illegal in any way, but just because you are illegal doesn"t make you unsafe.
In Oregon pick up plates are for 6000 gvw Now my Quad cab Ford 4X4 weighs 8100 empty so caught with trailer I am already in D_S with out trailer. But I also can pay thru nose with Farm plates(tripple price per year) and redgester it for 26,000 which should come with a pre written ticket for Manslaughter. Much of anything over 20,000 NEEDS a TRUCK under it not a 1 Toone which only will haul 800 lbs more than a 3/4 ton(look at door sticker) GVW and as far as towing weight dead heat there 30,000 max
Quote from: captain_crunch on May 11, 2010, 01:12:37 AM
In Oregon pick up plates are for 6000 gvw Now my Quad cab Ford 4X4 weighs 8100 empty so caught with trailer I am already in D_S with out trailer. But I also can pay thru nose with Farm plates(tripple price per year) and redgester it for 26,000 which should come with a pre written ticket for Manslaughter. Much of anything over 20,000 NEEDS a TRUCK under it not a 1 Toone which only will haul 800 lbs more than a 3/4 ton(look at door sticker) GVW and as far as towing weight dead heat there 30,000 max
Depends how the trucks are optioned.. My '99 F250 Ex-Cab Long-Box 4x4 6spd Powerstroke has a 9900 Door Sticker, When I bought my '06 F350 Crewcab, Long Box, 4x4, 6spd, Powerstroke, Single Rear wheel I optioned it to have the 11,200 GVWR, Dually was around 12500ish
Where di you get tires that will take that load with single rear wheels?
Stonebroke
Quote from: Gary_C on May 09, 2010, 10:46:08 PM
But all of this does not mean that you could not get a ticket for this load if you met up with a sour DOT officer who went by the GVWR on the pickup that the pickup manufacturers lower for liability reasons. Most DOT guys will just check tire ratings and compare those to actual load.
This is a question we ask our dot. They stated they would go by the manufacturers rated GCVWR or towing rating of the truck. It varies a lot by truck. If you follow this most pickups are overloaded very easily. My last ford was rated by ford to tow only 15000, by the time you add the weight of the trailer (goose-neck 7000) you can only haul a 8000. My skid steer weights 9200 without a bucket. >:(
Quote from: stonebroke on May 11, 2010, 07:21:37 AM
Where di you get tires that will take that load with single rear wheels?
Stonebroke
Cant say they were rated for that.. I was running Stock wheels and Tires on my F350 (Steel Budd Wheels, BFG 265/70/17's) when i got my aftermarket wheels i made sure they were of the same load rating.. I run G rated tires on my trailers
I LOVE "G" rated tires for my 16" needs. Even my single axle trailers I use them on. Full steel casings and NO SWAY.
Ironwood
Just for a rough guide, the E rated tires (235/85-R16) are rated just under 3000 lbs per tire. So a rear axle with singles would be able to carry about 6000 lbs and a dually about 12,000 lbs. though they downrate them to about 2800 each when used as duals.
Those G rated tires that Ironwood is referencing are nice if you need higher ratings as they are rated at 3750 each. But they are not cheap and only come in a trailer tread so far.
Also becoming more common are 17.5 trailer tires rated fairly high, I believe 5000 or 6000 lbs each. I want to put some new axles and 17.5 tires on one of my former flat bed frames, pierced deck 25'er. It would be nice NOT to have 8 tires back there.
Also, the 16" G series tires ARE available in steers OR drive tires. We have local State trucks that run "loaded" and use them (I know because that is how I get my retreads carcasses) I never pass them up when I see them.
Ironwood
Quote from: Gary_C on May 11, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Just for a rough guide, the E rated tires (235/85-R16) are rated just under 3000 lbs per tire. So a rear axle with singles would be able to carry about 6000 lbs and a dually about 12,000 lbs. though they downrate them to about 2800 each when used as duals.
Those G rated tires that Ironwood is referencing are nice if you need higher ratings as they are rated at 3750 each. But they are not cheap and only come in a trailer tread so far.
I purchased my trailer tires through these guys and run the ATD tread pattern..
https://www.treadwright.com
I also run there tires on my pickups and jeep also
Quote from: Ironwood on May 11, 2010, 05:04:31 PM
Also, the 16" G series tires ARE available in steers OR drive tires. We have local State trucks that run "loaded" and use them (I know because that is how I get my retreads carcasses) I never pass them up when I see them.
Ironwood
I have tried to find 16" G tires for trucks and had no luck, All I can find are for trailer. What brand are you buying?
Thanks,
Tim
I talked to my commercial tire guy before posting that response, and did not ask him brand, but I will.
Ironwood
Mostly on-topic post: my son had a 3/4 ton Chevy single rear wheel pickup he used for his plumbing business. Occasional he rents a mini-excavator to do rough ins. Loaded it up one rainy morning, put his two boys in their car seats (one in back and one in front- should have been in back too in hingsight) and started off. Came to the railroad crossing which is at the bottom of a not-so-steep hill, and with the wet pavement, small tire footprint and all, couldn't slow down- was slipping and sliding all over. Decided to just run the crossing guards- mostly all we get are freight trains slow as molassas. Not this time- at the last minute he's able to see down the tracks: Amtrack doing 70. He manages to get enough gription to start a skid toward the side of the road, skids into the rocky 12" embankment just as the engine goes past- thinks he dodged this bullet when every car after slams in and through his passenger side fender, shearing it mostly off. His 3 year old is staring out the window 8" from the cars zooming past: another 6-8" skid and he'd have been a goner. Lesson learned: use a big enough truck to be able to control, brake and slow. All this discussion has been great, but my son's experience shows one thing: no matter how experienced or careful (he was only going 30 mph, witness verified), you WILL get into a situation that exceeds what you have if it's not the right vehicle and trailer.
Lj
as stated earlier
I towed my little ox(7 ton) with a chevy one ton 11,900 gvw
it did it, but I live at the top of one of the biggest hills in town. Each trip loaded was a total concentration event, i could see possible loss of hauling or braking almost every trip. It never happened, but I could not continue at the level.
the 4500 has much bigger tires, more weight, and massive calipers
and it is legal
Sorry I've been gone logging on the coast. I talked to the DMV here and asked what i needed to be legal to haul behind my pickup. She said As long as i have a ten dollar tag in the window with the accurate weight that I tell them it weighs I am completely legal and don't need a cdl even if I'm over 26 thousand. So based on what she told me I would be legal if i had the paper in the window, which is there since you can't see the front window. I have passed lots of cops and none have looked more than three times, but not pulled me over yet.
It's not the regular police, it's not the regular state police, it's what we call here the registry/weights and measures/DMV police. I have had regular town police cars pull me over just to ask what kind of liscence I need to drive my set up.
getting home is one thing.................. :P getting home and making money with out having a problem ona regular basis is another thing
This is straight off the Chevy website. For a 3500 http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-3500hd/features-specs/ (http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-3500hd/features-specs/)
Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) 18500 lbs
Maximum Trailering Capacity 13000 lbs
So you can only tow 13000 lbs legally. Trailer and load.
Duallys have the same gcwr as the single wheels, go figure.
Stonebroke
Quote from: mahonda on May 20, 2010, 04:47:26 PM
Sorry I've been gone logging on the coast. I talked to the DMV here and asked what i needed to be legal to haul behind my pickup. She said As long as i have a ten dollar tag in the window with the accurate weight that I tell them it weighs I am completely legal and don't need a cdl even if I'm over 26 thousand. So based on what she told me I would be legal if i had the paper in the window, which is there since you can't see the front window. I have passed lots of cops and none have looked more than three times, but not pulled me over yet.
Those are just temp Commercial tags.. I get them for my truck so i'm lisenced for 17ton.. But you still have to play by the same GVWR and CDL rules.. cant exceed what the truck/trailer combination is rated for and if you do and get caught by the Carrier Enforcment or a Highway Patrol.. your gonna get just as big or bigger ticket.. cause they know you know the rules (Or enough of them to know you should be smart enough to learn the rest of them).. So going down and getting a Paper tag saying i can haul 20ton, and putting it in the window of my F350 with a 20,000 trailer behind it doesn't mean i can haul the 20ton.. Its exceeding the GCVWR of the truck and trailer so your pushing the limits of legality.. Plus a truck trailer combo that has a GCVWR of over 26K lbs needs a CDL (By law, i know many guys that don't have a CDL and get away with it), but if they ever get caught it'll be a fine, why take the risk? Spend the 50 Bucks and get the CDL and be legal