Oxen logging

[Wes]

Does anyone log with oxen? Ive been thinking about training a team to give it a try.I would like to hear any thoughts,advice or comments.thanks Wes.

[etat]

I don't know not one thing about oxen.  But I can hook you up with a couple of brahma bulls, 16 month old, and just right for trainin!  I would pay money to see you hook a yoke to em!!!!!!

[Wes]

cktate,
Send,em up and we,ll have a go at it!
Just kidding I think that sounds like more of a challenge than Im up to. I was thinking more in the line of a couple of holstean calves for starters.But thanks for the offer.
Wes.

[Woodhog]

They have a lot of oxen around here...

They start them very young and use a head yoke on them..

They are more under control in the woods than horses as they
are very slow moving and docile if properly trained...
When you are finished with them you can eat them....much better taste than an old skidder tire....

At the local ag fair there are usually over 100 teams of oxen
from Maine and nova Scotia...

The Mainers use a neck yoke and here they use a head yoke, I think the head yoke has proven a better rig  over the years...
You dont have much gear to bust up, a few leather straps to put the yoke on the horns with, and a pole running down between the beasts to hook on the load...and an OX whip to crack over there heads when you pull on the yoke to get them to move a big load....
No hydraulic hoses/engine fumes/wheel chains/ diesel fuel/
busted trannies/ smashed cab windows, broken axles/
punched tires/dead batteries/etc etc etc...

Just very low productivity with almost no costs, a little hay and shortfeed and a bucket of water...

They use all breeds, Holstein/Hereford/ etc but the Red and Whites are the favorites by far....

Worst job is to put shoes on them as they have to be put in a sling affair....

So GEE  HAW,   Bright and Lion  away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://novascotia.cbc.ca/tv/landandsea/oxen/

Its not hard to tell I am over-tired from cutting logs all day...

[dail_h]

   Wes,
   There is a lady at yhe Southeast Old Threshers every year with brown swiss oxen. This year she had a yoke that pulled with their horns,that may be the head yoke you guys mentioned,but the neat thing about these was they were trained to follow on command. To prove this ,she had different people walk them around on the grounds. I'de love to have a yoke of oxen,but don't have time or space right now.

[Bro. Noble]

Reminds me of the story they tell about a local character who has been gone many years.  His name was Sedger Russel.  One time Sedger was hard up for money and decided to sell his calf for some pocket money.  He got to thinking that if he broke the calf to work he could get a little more for it. He had an old neck yoke but only one calf so he yoked himself with the calf.  Of course the calf got spooked and took off ending up in a pile all tangled up with Sedger.  His buddies who were taking this all in with delight came running to his rescue.  When they started to unyoke him Sedger stopped them.  He told them "take the blasted yoke off that *DanG calf----Sedger'll stand" :D

[Keltic]

As Woodhog stated the solid exhaust units are still pretty widely used in Nova Scotia, just saw an interesting half hour program about them the other day, a local show called Land and Sea. Looked like fun, once you had them trained that is.

[Wes]

This all sounds very interesting,the more I learn about oxen the more I want to try it.
Thanks for the link,now I have to think about headyoke vs neakyoke this is the first Ive heard of a head yoke.I would like to make one myself if I can find some plans.
The story was also very entertaining.
Thanks again all.
Wes

[Stan]

If you are really interested do a search on Rural Heritage. The magazine is the site you want.  

[Wes]

Stan,
Yeah I checked that one first, It's a real good one.
Wes

[crtreedude]

Hi All,

This oxen thread caught my attention.  You see, I have a tree plantation in Costa Rica and we are seriously considering using oxen instead of a bulldozer to retrieve trees.  The oxen will not tear things up as much I am told.  They are a lot slower but I personally like the idea.

The yoke for oxen in Costa Rica is made of mangrove wood since it is hard but elastic.  The yoke is tied onto their horns.  I just joined the forum and it looks really interesting.  I hope to be asking some questions but for now I am trying to catchup on a lot of the great information that is already published.  You see, I need to buy a saw mill in the next year or two and am just getting started researching.  :P

Fred

[Jeff]

 I hope to be asking some questions...

Fred, I hope your prepaired to answer some too!

COSTA RICA?!!  :o8)


What sort of trees are you growing?

[Fla._Deadheader]

Costa Rica ???  I go there. Where ya located, near the Osa???  Couldn't find Monterey on the map. What Province are ya located in ???

  Have Sawmill, will travel ??? : ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

[Tom]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Fred.

If he's growing banana trees, maybe he won't have to fuel the oxen from imported fuel. :

I'm sure curious to see pictures of a modern working ox team. :P

[crtreedude]

Hi All,

The trees we planted this year are teak, mahagony, Spanish cedar, sura and pilon.  (About 4,200).  However, my forestry engineer told me that I need to harvest about 200 trees that are spread across the plantation. 8)

When I get my sawmill I just might take someone one up on a trip to Costa Rica to work with me and my crew and show us how it's done.  By the way, have you ever dealt with a bole that is 80 to 90 feet tall?   ;D

If you are interested in what we are doing, we have a website at www.fincaleola.com - more just a site that is focused on reforestation.  There is a discription of the trees there as well as a TON of pictures under the Costa Rica link.  

Nope, not growing bananas, actual the oxen just eat the grass, they really do not need anything else so I am told.  In fact, the horses only eat the grass and I used to think that horses required oats or something.  Must be better grass than normal.  We will be growing plantains, bananas, oranges, mangoes tangerines, limes, etc for our own use and the use of the workers.  Many of these are already growing on the plantation wild.

I'll see if I can track down a picture of a working oxen, I think I saw one somewhere.

[crtreedude]

As far as our location - Find Arenal Volcano, due North on Route 4 is Monterrey.  We are a little further north near the town of San Miguel - you will need a good map to find THAT!  We are on the head waters of Rio Cano Ciego.

So you interested in sawing up some logs that are more than 80 feet long?!

Fred

[Fla._Deadheader]

Ola, Como Esta. No problema, Senor !!!!!!  ;D :D :D :D
  Went to yer website. Nicely done. Found you were in Alahuela. Only direction I haven't gone. Been to Nicoya, and almost to Nicaragua. Been to the Osa Peninsula and nearly went to Limon. Might have ended up in a shootout with Squatters, so, my friend asked me to NOT go.  ::)Didn't want me to get hurt. : ;D
  I have a good friend in San Jose, actually San Pedro. Been down there 5 times. We go gold prospecting. Found some nice stuff, but, can't report on that : : ;D

  Nearly bought a gold mine site, that had several million $$ worth of invisible gold tailings. Got slickered out of the deal, friend was too slow getting his butt up to the site, and someone else bought it??? >:(

  Would love to get together when I go down at the end of March. Used to do Hardwood logging and sawing with a stationary Circle mill, in Arkansas.

  Have a homebuilt Wood mizer type bandmill now. Can saw up to 20' with the extension. Ya got any idea how heavy a 80' 1 X 4 would be  ;D ;D :D :D :D

  Native wood in Costa Rica is BEAUTIFUL.

[Wes]

 crtreedude,
 Welcome,I've also been to Costa Rica,I'ts a beautiful place.
I spent two months there building bridges with the army in '85' I dont remeber the name of the nearest village but it was near Puerto Quepos.
 If your interested in exporting hardwoods you could try contacting my frends at cocobolo inc. cocoboloinc.com they are americans from panama. Good people, tell them wes sent you.
 Someday I would like to visit again
ps. is that volcano the one near San Jose? been to the top of that one.
     Wes

[crtreedude]

Volcano Arenal is located north of San Jose about 90 kilometers.  Look for the largest lake in Costa Rica, it is near there or look for La Fortuna.

You wouldn't go up Arenal, it is active, as in lava, hot rocks, that sort of thing. It has been doing it for about 30 years.  Nothing particularly dangerous so they say but very neat.  Also, the hot springs are absolute great.  Nothing like soaking in a hot spring after working on the plantations.  I know it's hard, but someone has to do it... :D

We currently live in NJ, but are planning on making the move sometime in the next 6 months.

So, prospecting for Gold eh?  Sounds like fun.  Yeah, you are right, an 80 foot long piece of teak would be very heavy - especially if you were cutting beams.  

I'll look up your friends at cocobolo inc.  Thanks for the recommendation.  My first real harvest / thinings occur in about 6 years but I do have more than 200 trees to do something with.  Also I am think of starting a sawing business as well since the normal method is to just take the trunk leaving a tremedous amount of good wood.  Much of the remainder would make very good wood if it was sawed up but because of the difficulty of hauling wood out they don't bother with it.  I could probably get the leavings for free just for cleaning them up.

Yep, your right, tropical hardwoods are beautiful - and very expensive.  

Fred

[Wes]

 crtreedude,
 Where in NJ are you? Im at the north west tip near high point in wantage.
 We took a bus ride from San Jose to the top of the volcano where you could stand at the rim and look down into the bubbling crater.The round trip took all day.
Wes

[crtreedude]

Hi Wes,

Down in Bridgewater.  I been hiking up and around High Point, that is a beautiful area.  I'd love to get together sometime and see your saw mill.  

The Vocano you saw was probably Poas.  I have not had the time to see that one yet.  In fact, so far I have seen only a little of San Jose and a Lot of around Arenal.  My wife and I have been staying really busy with the plantation.

[Scott]

 I saw that show Woodhog and Keltic were talking about. It was really interesting. I'd like to get a copy of it to have around. I don't think i've ever seen the whole thing.

[etat]

Well I've seen the yokes, but I didn't know there were shoes for em.  

     Oxen Shoes

[Keltic]

They still make shoes and actually shoe the oxen at the New Ross Farm Museum in Nova Scotia. They have to suspend the beasts from the roof cuz unlike a horse an ox can't stand on 3 legs, neat to see! Fred

[Scott]

 I've been there a few times, we used to vacation down that way. All i really remember was the backsmith shop and a real old tractor they had there.

[Swede]

In these days, with a horse in front of their wagons the farmers always are in a hurry and at home from the town before evening.
When they used oxen they could sleep at home the first 3 nights.........(^__^)
  

[Wes]

 Welcome Swede.

 So Ive passed on two nice Ayrshire bull calves so far, I really wanted them,and the price was cheep.But Im not set up for animals yet, I would like to try and set everything up first,ie,barn,fence,ect.when it warms up.

 Can anyone tell me how much pasture I would need for two oxen??

[etat]

Around here on a good pasture the rule of thumb is maximum 1 cow per acre.  

[Swede]

I hope someone know the difference between an ox and a bull............ :D   It´s a BIG differece and two of them makes it double up!
If necessary Youré welcome to ask. I´ll explane by private message. ;D

[Tom]

My understanding is that the difference between a Steer and an Ox is the age at which the surgery took place.  A young beef that is neutered becomes a Steer. They put on weight, become stocky but don't develop much musculature.

A Beef that is allowed to mature and then is neutered is heavy, has defined musculature, is strong but becomes fairly docile.  He's an Ox.

A beef that becomes a Bull is strong too.  But, if you tie him to a log or wagon he wouldn't like it and will tear it apart.  He'll also fight with the other bull you harness next to him. He's a bad dude :D

I've seen pictures of Cows attached to carts as draft animals too.  I know that is what they are because they have Udders :D  Is there something special about them?

[Wes]

 Swede,

 Send the message,cause I think im gunna buy my first calf next week.

 I ordered a book on training oxen today from the rural heritage web site.It looks like a good one. :P

[Swede]

Wes;

Tom told us some of it :D. They are lasy and very slow, just want to stand there and eat. It´ll take You half a minute to start them up, moving their first leg. You need a cup of coffe when You´ve got all the stuff on them and hanged  the wagon on.

When i was a teenager I used a horse in the forrest. It works faster and is a real friend. It has to be heawy and calm.  I think ardennner is "the" rase. Can learn to go where You want him to but most horses dont set their foot where its not OK, on You, if there is a hole under, bad ice a.s.o. Learn him not to move a foot when You have thrown the reim  on the ground.
I remember one old man who usaly didn´t use the reim in the forest, he walked 2-4 meters (the horses naturally safety space) in front of the horse.
If an accident happens You in the forrest the horse goes home....if You hanged the reim on the harness and not left it on the ground. The oxen will stand there and eat around You.
A horse will be a partner in the work, oxen is just.........oxen. Eat them and forget them!

www.parellicanada.com
www.horsewhispering.co.uk
www.kersur.net
......or just look for "Natural Horsemanchip" at Internet.

Swede

[etat]

This was the first bull, or cow, I ever owned.  When we bought this place spent almost two years off and on getting it fenced and grass growing.  This bull was bought from a neighbor.  He was a 4-H bull bottle raised, but when he got too big they put him in the pasture.  He would go through the fence and back to the utility room in the carport.  He was a big pet, and they didn't want him slaughtered, so they sold him to me at a bargain.  We named him Jethro.  Soon we bought some cows as he was getting kinda lonesome and started a small herd.  After a while I bought some full blooded brahma cows.  Some of them were bred to a full blooded angus bull.  First day in the pasture one of these old cows put me over the fence, 7 strand barbwire.  Didn't take em long to gentle down, they hadn't ever been used to people.  After Jethro got about 3 years old he started getting mean. Never bothered the wife or kids, just didn't like grown men, me included.  I never was afraid of him though, as such.  I always went in the pastue with a baseball bat or something in my hand though.  Several times had to warp him on the nose and he'd back off.  One day I went ot feed  he caught me from behind and knocked me down.  I dove out of the way, got out of the pasture and decided time to sell ole Jethro. The day we went to load him up backed a cattle trailor in and put some feed in it.  I had already seperated him to himself and had him in a pen.  He'd stick his nose in the trailor but wouldn't go in.  I wasn't worried cause I knew he was just taking his time and would go in when he got good durn and ready.  Dad decided to go in the pasture and hurry things along, against my advice.  Jethro turned on him, and Dad hit him in the nose.  I started screaming at Kim to go get a gun, and I jumped the fence just as Jethro hit him.  Knocked him about 20 feet and ran all over him, but never actually stepped on him.  I was right behind the bull screaming as he ran on.  Some how that bull didn't step on Dad, but, well, just let me say it's one of the few times I ever saw my Dad scared.  I got him out of the pasture, threating him at the same time as I had told him not to get in with the bull.  That is when I found out he wasn't hurt bad.  Later that evening Jethro walked in the cattle trailor and my wife went in and shut the door.  At the sale barn, I wasn't there, I found out later she went in with the bull, petting him, and put the sales number on for the folks that worked there.  I've still got two full blooded brahma cows, and some brahma cross.  I am slowly weeding them out and changing over to a gentler breed.  At this time I only have 12 head of cows.  I sold 15 head this past fall before the prices fell off due to mad cow disease.  The thing I miss about Jethro, he sure did look good in the pasture.

[etat]

The lake in the background adjoins my place.  Sometimes the water is on my pasture, sometimes just at the edge of it.  The picture of the bull is on a hill, the  ground drops off back behind him running down to the lake.  Lots of bass back there, we regularly catch and releas 4 to 6 pounders.  Got an 8 pound  and a 8 1/2 pounder on the wall.  got a 10 pounder in the freezer waiting to be mounted.  Oddly I havn't fished at all this summer.  We just been too busy.  You can see the lake from the back upstairs of the house we're building.

[etat]

Now if you had smaller logs this un here is already broke to work.  Only jerked me off my feet a couple of times in the process.  Her name is Ruthie.  When I bought her for my wife for christmas a few years ago she was already bred to a full blooded minature donkey.  Her off spring is about half her size and is now Just over a Year old, and a mean little bugger.  Havn't ever broke him to work, just really not interested in fooling with the little jackass.  But him and the wife gets along just fine

We are building our house just a little clooser to this pond that they are standing.  It is quite a bit bigger than it looks in the picture.  After I had it built and it filled up I stocked it with 18 hundred channel cat, and 400 brim.  It was dug out with a trackhoe, dozer, and front end loader.  It covers about 3/4 of an acre and is 22 feet deep at the deepest point.  There is also a sand bar, a small island in the middle with willow trees growing, A few big chunks of white oak I sunk when building , and part of an old levy from another pond that was there before I had it drained and enlarged.  I left about 20 feet of the old levy to walk out on and fish.

[etat]

And your youngest son can sit on it and get his picture took!

Anybody in the market for a donkey meet me at my house after dark while the wife and kids are asleep!

[etat]

Now if I was gonna log with an animal I'd get a medium sized mule, or a pair of em, but a horse is much nicer to ride.  This is my daughter Jennifer and our horse Chism..

My opinion, me and my dad have both broke and trained and showed racking horses.  I imagine an ox would be the same way.  To train you would have to work with them EVERY day, for at least a year.  I'm not kidding, EVERY DAY.  And even small calves will Hurt You!  They are much stronger than what you'd think.  They are real friendly, you can rub em and pet em as long as you want.  Things change when you put a rope on em.  There are a variety of bridles and bits you can put on a horse or a mule to help get their attention if needed, even to the point of making a war halter that can put em on their knees.  You can lead  a bad un to deep mud and in about 30 minutes get enough wind out of him to ride him, no matter how mean he is, he can't buck when his feet are sinking in the mud.  I couldn't even imagine the proper procedures for breaking a ox to work. I do imagine you'd want to start em young, break to lead first, and know working with them would take a lot of your time.

[Duane_Moore]

 :D :D :D :D cktate,  your are a case. I get a kick out ya,   why with your expertese, and a good Case pocket knife we could get into the cat fixen bussines, there seams to be need for that nowdays, why all we would need is a old cowboy boot, (thats to stuff him head first into) guys,then him can"t scratch ya, and a very small twitch to train him with, cktate will do the trainin, I'll watch, now instead of mud, we can use Jello, spread on the floor so he can't get a good footin, and let you two go at it,---  God hope you don't get upset with ck  only funnin-----Duh---Duane ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Duane_Moore]

Wes- will try to get serious, If you can find a pair of Murry Gray, bull calves for sale use them,get them as young as you can, and hand raise them,feed them by hand and treat as a dog, cattle learn real quick, but from there enviroment, I have had newborn calves abondend by the mom and raised by hand and were scared of other cattle, thought they were dogs, would even chase cars, the Murry Gray is a very Gentle Breed, timid, will listen good, as for pasture room, ask around to the local ranchers on how much.per cow unit. or ask the A.S.C.S. offfice. do not cut them till they get Stagy, norm about 1 to 1 1/2 yrs old this will give them good size and not let them get Bully, to control a steer use a ring in there nose, with a rope on it, this is a very sensitive area on bovine. feed well and love them, they will respond.    Duane       also try your local 4H club or FFA. school ag class, they will be great help.esp in halter class

[etat]

Duane, hadn't ever cut a cat but I got pretty good at goats one time.  Got into them Boar goats, started out with some cross and would fix the little billys and sell them for meat.  Further along wound up with a herd of about 30 Registered Full Blood and managed to sell out just barely before losing my butt. Did make some on them a while but got  to be more trouble than they wuz worth.  Have to learn how to doctor em and keep em wormed and fix em when they's sick, and if you don't and have to take em to the vet you'll sure lose yer butt.  Did go with my ag. teacher once one summer when somebody wanted some big ole boar hogs cut.  Bunch of us held em, and he cut em.  Didn't nobody want the mountain oysters so we fed em to the dogs.  . They wuz about the size of a baseball, jest shaped a little different.  Set broken bones on my dogs afore, and splinted em up and they healed jest fine.  Now I hear they arrested somebody for cutting off some puppies tails.Bet ya you're a lot like me, been into more than ya thought ya could get out of, and learned how to do  and fix a lot of stuff, also cause ya had too.  Wouldn't want to do it over, but wouldn't have wanted it to be any other way.   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Norm]

Now this has nothing to do with ox but Duane's comment about cutting the cat with a cowboy boot reminded me of a funny story. My older brother worked at a farm as a horse trainer. They had a barn cat that was real tame but starting to get a little rank. So him and one of the other hired hands decided instead of taking em to the vet they'd just cut him themselves. They got a cowboy boot and the hog knife. Wrapped the cat up in a towel and then proceded to stuff him head first into the boot. Now mind you this cat is still mostly a farm cat. They took one swipe at his privates and the cat sprung out of the boot and went at my brother with all twenty claws. Can't say as i blame em. I wasn't there but heard the story when I went to visit and asked how he got all the scratches on his hands and arms. I laughed so hard I had tears running.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Norm,

Your brother is lucky to only have hands and arms impacted. Cats have been responsible for the loss of eyes and severe biting infections.

Those four feet and claws can move so fast they will make your sawmill jealous of how fast they can cut.  :D :D :D

[Wes]

 You guys crack me up, :D,where else can you get technical information and a good laugh at the same time????

 Swede,I can tell your a horse person.I had a couple when I was a kid but were replaced by a car when I got my drivers licence.
  So let me explain my reasons for choosing oxen. I worked with a horse logger a couple of times and enjoyed it,but after doing some reserch I decided that I wasnt financially ready for horses. Then I started reading about oxen, :P I can get them cheep,[ especially now with mad cow] Where we live there is mostly dairy farms,and my boys work at one locally so there is no problem getting them,geting help with cows,and Im preity sure I can train them. If it doesent work out they will go to market.Im not looking to go into the full time oxen logging buisness,Its just another tool to use,The day may come when I can go to horses but in the mean time this will be a good experience.
 Also I kind of like being a little different.

 CK  I can relate to your experience with the bull a little. Last year my brother in law Ray was killed by a bull at the farm that he worked on. It got him from behind,shattered his spine,then stomped his chest and body so far into the mud of the pasture that it took his co-workers all day to find him.Becouse of the area he was in they had to remove his body by helicoptor. He died doing what he loved the most,and the coriner said he probably didnt feel a thing.[I hope].

 have to go my wifes calling for supper ;D

[etat]

Sorry to hear about your brother in law, when that bull ran over dad scared me pretty bad after it was over, didn't have time to be scared for a minute.  That bull I had just went from being gentle to being mean.  But the wife could feed him by hand.  I let some folks come through my pasture to fish.  When I had him I warned them about him.  He bunged up one fellars truck pretty good, (thankfully it was a  old fishing truck).  After that I cut out the fishing too until I got rid of him.  

Here's a picture of my granddaddy about the time, or before I was born with his team.  Probably about the time cause I remember them, barely.

[Duane_Moore]

  :'( :'( :( Wes.  sorry ya lost a brother in law  that way, Guys always remember they are wild animals no matter how tame they are, and they are big, seen some bad stuff in my life by animals, get em cornered and look out. Hope ya find a good set of calves, they will treat ya rite,  use to find lots of oxen shoes around the Oregon trail, and the Buffalo Wallows, when I had time to look, lived not to far from Ft Laramie, Wyo. seen a lot of oxen teams years ago, they were good on the prarie. and fun to watch, good luck with them.   Duane.

[Swede]

Wes, I´m sorry to hear about Your brother, knew some people who had been in trouble but not killed.

I also understand that You want these oxen, I also like to look a little different (read crazy) some times. Hope Your oxen not will get crazy too! THAT should be an experiese! However I think oxen will MAKE You a full timer.   :D
And I can tell You a secret; I had a crazy horse 25 years ago. Long and strong legs, took one step while I took four, a neck to hang the harness on. 168cm high and very good looking.  But after 4 hours of exercising in hot sun, when we thougt that he was too tired to be up to mischief, he made burn outs over the field or in the bush. What jouneys I did hanging in the rein!

How much will an ardenner or shire cost there?

Swede.

[Swede]

cktate

About the horses....I´s an old photo but it looks like that Your granddaddy was 218cm tall. The horses we use here for work are much bigger and we usaly just use one. Perhaps I should look after some old photo and figure out how big the horses was here 100 years ago. I just remeber from 1955.
I´m thinking about why the bull vas a friend to Yor whife and not You. Anything whith the smell? :D

Swede.

[Tom]

Chanel#5, swede, perfume.

Some bulls just take a liking to some people. Charlie and I used to ride one of my Granddaddy's until he found out we were doing it.  Bulls, I hear, can't be trusted.  They will charge someone who raised them and new them for years.

[L. Wakefield]

   That makes me think- yesterday I went down to feed the cows and Fearless Fred (my herd bull) was mildly interested in the condition of one of them- not mounting but checking it out. And I had on some blend I was working on- oakmoss, bergamot, grapefruit, petitgrain, cistus, and frankincense- and by golly, he gave me 'the eye' as I went by.I had a grain scoop in my hand (didn't have to do anything with it), but it made me think that it might be time to start carrying a stick again as soon as I walk in the gate. This time of year the focus of the cattle is usually on food, and I do carry a stick when I put out the first set of bales.  

   It was above freezing yesterday. Today it's -15, and I think as far as the sense of smell and the desire to jump- well, we'll probably be on a different channel today.   lw

[beenthere]

lw
Reminds me - I used to give some of the 'girls' the 'eye'  : too, at work, when they would get on the elevator with another layer of perfume on top of the previous one (which they couldn't smell anymore, as they were too close to it). Certain ones were more than the 'eyes' could bear without tearing up. (Please, no implication to lw here.)  I liken it to having cats in the house, and only the visitors can smell the litter box because the occupants are not aware anymore. Beenther too! Or like putting salt on food, when adding 'more' than the last time is the only way to taste the 'salt'. The smellers and taste buds are interesting 'devices'.  :D

Two neighbors were torn up (one made it through) by their bulls that they were very familiar with, but apparently the bulls tricked them into thinking they were safe, then turned on them when they least expected it. Lots of such stories with bulls, and I guess the saying "they can't be trusted" is a good one. Does that go for men too?   ??? ;D

[L. Wakefield]

   semi-seriously   ;)  , 'trust' is a relative term. I don't hold with blind trust. But man (or woman) or beast- if you understand the motivations, the perceptions, and the hormones involved, you can begin to get a working handle on the limits of what you might call trust.

   With a bull, you have increasing age, hormones, recent activity, stresses and etc. Some types of behavior are hard-wired in them ('instinct') just like in all of us, and they can become killing machines.

   I fully agree with the 'don't turn your back'. It makes it hard if I'm feeding in the dark..but the bullfighter's lesson is a good one to remember. When they get that freight-train of a body moving, they got a lot of inertia. It can flatten you, but it don't turn on a dime. So I like trees in the pasture, and other cows.

   Fearless has been good so far, but he will be 2 in June, and I'm watching him close.If he gets ornery, he goes in the bull pen and his lady friends will visit him as I can time their cycles (I don't find that near as effective as free run with the bull), and he will be fattening- then it will be fare well, my friend, and into the freezer. It's the best deal I can offer him.  lw

[Swede]

 Salt, smells and hormones make me thinking some years back.
I knew there was a bunch of earwigs in my mailbox but I forget to take salt with me  every day. One sunny day when i came some steps from it I could feel a strange smell.  I found a mail from a woman I had met some times two years earlier. Now she had sent me a new "quotation". I´ve never seen some earwigs in the mailbox after that. :D

About the woman? I wasn´t intrested so I just told her the whole story. She will never forgive me so one day perhaps I´ll need salt again.

Swede.