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How do I safely drop this tangled tree?

Started by lowpolyjoe, October 23, 2013, 09:07:21 AM

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lowpolyjoe

Hey Guys,

Sorry, I may have posted this question in the past (I can't remember).

I have several very dead trees in my little patch of woods.  The ground around a few of them has sort of collapsed in around the trunk - sorry no pic of that right now.  They look very unstable and I've been meaning to drop them, but we had some owls and flying squirrels that might be living in them.  We like seeing those little critters so I was reluctant to take them down.  Do I lose some man points for that   :D

This past summer, however, one of them started to go on its own and looks like it got hung up on a nearby live tree.  I was hoping to get some feedback on how to attack a tree that is resting on another tree.  I don't think the dead tree is split or cracked, it's just coming out of the ground.  All I have is a chainsaw and some wedges.  If this requires machinery to do it safely I will be bummed :(



Thanks guys,
Joe

thecfarm

Do you have a tractor? Or get to them with a truck to pull them down?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

beenthere

To do it safely, just don't get under it... ;)

I'd release it with a chainsaw cut at the bottom after putting a rope up as high as can be "safely" reached.
Likely it will roll when released, but having the rope to help it along should do the trick.

If not, and it is loose from the stump, pull on the butt end with a car, or truck.

If that doesn't work, use a pry pole/post to wedge over the butt end and scooting it to a less than vertical position.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

lowpolyjoe

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I don't have a tractor or atv or anything fun like that  :(

Unfortunately, getting a car or truck back there is not an option due to a very steep slope cutting this area off from any vehicle entry point.  Don't think running a line all the way out to a vehicle is an option either.

I have a cheap come-along.  You guys think that would work to pull it down?  Maybe i should give that a shot before i try anything else.   There are a lot of trees nearby to anchor to.

My worry attacking it with the saw is that i have no idea what direction it's gonna go after i cut the bottom.  If i cut it very low, i fear it won't move at all because i think it's wedged pretty good up top.  If i cut it higher, i'm worried the butt might shoot out in an unpredictable direction and possibly clobber me. 

lowpolyjoe

Oh... if i rope it - i have no knowledge of knots.  Can anyone recommend a good knot that i should learn for roping stuff like this? 

Thanks!

beenthere

QuoteCan anyone recommend a good knot that i should learn for roping stuff like this? 

A bowline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIdsTZTUl6E
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

beenthere

Quote from: lowpolyjoe on October 23, 2013, 12:15:25 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I don't have a tractor or atv or anything fun like that  :(

Unfortunately, getting a car or truck back there is not an option due to a very steep slope cutting this area off from any vehicle entry point.  Don't think running a line all the way out to a vehicle is an option either.

I have a cheap come-along.  You guys think that would work to pull it down?  Maybe i should give that a shot before i try anything else.   There are a lot of trees nearby to anchor to.

My worry attacking it with the saw is that i have no idea what direction it's gonna go after i cut the bottom.  If i cut it very low, i fear it won't move at all because i think it's wedged pretty good up top.  If i cut it higher, i'm worried the butt might shoot out in an unpredictable direction and possibly clobber me.

Then in that case, I would suggest just leaving it alone. It will eventually fall down, so put some "danger zone" tape around the area.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mad murdock

If you have a com-along or other hand winch, you can tie off to the tree and drag the butt end away from the hangup, keeping yourself far away from any potential danger.  definitely do not want to be under it, and you want a hard hat, so you dont get hit by any "widow makers".  Use the saw as necessary to keep the but end moving and pull it out till the tree comes to the ground.  That is the safest way I know how.  Kind of limited since you dont have a machine, or cant access the area with any type of machine or vehicle to pull it down with.  Just think each move through thoroughly before acting, and always leave yourself an out, that way you reduce the chances of hurting or killing yourself.  If you are unsure of the outcome or yourself, get a pro to come and down it for you.  a Few dollars spent on a seasoned properly equiped professional will cost a lot less than a hospital bill, let alone any permanent injuries you may sustain-if you have any doubts about doing it yourself.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

SamB

With reference to the photo, I would notch on the top side we're seeing at a comfortable height from a standing position on the right side. Cut up from the bottom side leaving a little holding wood on the left side hoping it will roll left and fall to ground. If you have a rope high enough up the trunk you might pull it to the left and free it, if it doesn't roll out. Pictures don't always show the actual conditions but, from what I see that's how I would approach the situation. Then maybe hiring someone who has done it before would be the safest option.

lowpolyjoe

Great bowline video, thanks!   Been practicing on a usb cable at my job  :D

As far as leaving it as-is... i would like to semi-permanently setup my crazy chainsaw mill not far from this tree.  It's probably the farthest point from all surrounding neighbors for noise considerations,  so i'd like to clear this tree to make the area safe sooner than later.

Murdock - i'm thinking i'll give the come-along a shot.  It's a pretty low budget, light duty model so i'm not sure how much it can pull.  I'll have to find it and see what it can do.   Also have to recon my rope situation.  I think i have some unopened general purpose rope but i'm not sure how strong it is.   I'll definitely have my hat on, whatever i end up doing, thanks.

Thanks for the rundown Sam.  I realize now, looking at the pic, that there are actually 2 dead trees in the frame  :-[.   The one i'm thinking about taking down is slightly to the left of center in the frame... it is definitely tangled in the neighboring live tree near the top.  The dead tree at the far right of the frame is leaning, but i'm not sure if it's actually tangled in anything.  That one should be on the list to come down as well.

Fla._Deadheader

 That come along might run out of pull, just as you need it most.  Get a boat trailer winch. Attach a chain on one side, MAYBE, slide a piece of garden hose over the chain. I don't, but, some here don't want to disturb the bark on the anchor tree.

Ennyhoo, fasten 1 link or a similar device on the other side of the winch.  Put it against the anchor tree and run the chain around and see how you can fasten it, so you make a way to pass a longer bolt through the chain link and that single link. Now, you have an adjustable way to fasten the winch to any anchor tree, for pulling logs or pulling trees over.

Now, get a forked stick, drive nails in it, or whatever, and pass the winch line, or an extension line if needed, around the tree and loosely hook it together. DO NOT EVER use hooks. Use a clevis or shackle, whatever they are called in your area. Take that forked stick and slide-work that looped winch line or whatever, up as high as you can. It may only go up 10' or so, but, that beats ground level.

With the weight of the tree sitting on the ground, there is little hope of moving it as Mad Murdock suggested. It will dig in more and more. Just pull it(them) down.

Now, put your chin strap on that holds that hard hat, and start cranking. Pay attention to keeping the slack line winding level on the winch. Once the slack gets tight, forget about watching that winch, and concentrate on that tree. (Looks like 2 dead ones in that photo)

Crank as hard as you can. It would help to have some wind to help move all the trees in question. IF you can't gain ANY slack on the tree(s), once the line gets too hard to crank, walk away and let nature do it's thing. Keep the kids away.

Attacking that thing with a chainsaw, with no idea how to, is NOT a good idea. It might hang worse, so, with the mighty chainsaw at the ready, one thinks ONE MORE CUT and it will fall. Don't bet the house on that. Soon, you are in a VERY BAD SITUATION. It's NEVER a good idea to try to escape with a chainsaw in your hands.

I have YEARS of experience using winches of all sizes and power, and, I regularly pull logs up a 30% incline hill on my place. It can be done easily if you use your head. You did a good job building that sawmill, so now, work on those trees slowly and be safe.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

lowpolyjoe

Thanks Deadheader.

Yeah, I was thinking i'd try to pull up high on the trunk - i like the forked stick idea.  Pulling from the bottom as Murdock suggested sounds like it could work if i had a serious whinch, but i don't think my light duty come-along is going to budge the butt end.

You hit the nail on the head with the chainsaw comment.  I'm worried i'll put a few cuts in it and it won't go anywhere.... then i'll have a much more dangerous situation where it could go at any time with no warning.  As it stands now, i think it would take a serious wind gust to rock the supporting tree something fierce before that dead one would shake loose.  It forks at the top and the live tree branches are resting right in the fork.  Almost like nature was building a lean-to  :D

CX3

I didnt read all the posts so heres my opinion.  Cut it off at the butt.  Hook the longest chain or several chains you've got and hook to the four wheel drive truck or farm tractor.  Pull it down extremely slowly.  But not too slow because you want to keep it moving along fast enough not to get hung worse. If you cant get a truck in there hook up a cable type come along and give your forearms a good afternoon workout.  Good luck.  Watch for overhead dangers, and be careful the other trees dont decide to come over for a visit!  Wear a hard hat
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

WDH

You could leave it to its own devices.  The birds and bees need places too. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

The foresters calls them widlife trees. I have many on my land.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

lowpolyjoe

I love seeing just about any type of critter and generally I would leave a dead tree for them to live in / eat from.

Just so happens that this one is already falling and I will be spending time in this area of the woods so I was hoping to resolve a safety issue.  The second tree in the pic is also looking somewhat unsafe the more I look at it :(

There are a bunch more dead ones not too far away that I don't plan on touching.  There's one dead giant forked monster that's one of the biggest trees in the area.  Lots of birds perching on it and critters crawling on it.  One of our favorite trees and I hope it sticks around for a good long while

Ford_man

I don't know how long it has been in this position, I would think about it till next summer then maybe the spring winds will bring it down safely.  splitwood_smiley

beenthere

Joe
I thought by now you would have that tree down, or at least tell us that the rope and come-a-long didn't pull it down.
;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

lowpolyjoe

Quote from: beenthere on October 24, 2013, 11:15:05 AM
Joe
I thought by now you would have that tree down, or at least tell us that the rope and come-a-long didn't pull it down.
;)

Heh... i wish.  This time of year it's pitch black outside by the time i get home from work, so no progress    :(

I'm hoping to try something this weekend as long as the weather holds.

pineywoods

Joe, you are looking at an example of a classic way to get hurt. In most cases, you can saw it through, it rolls off the stump and falls. Worst case, and I have had them do this... Rolls off the stump, mangles your chainsaw bar, the butt jumps sideways 10-15 feet and upward 6 feet, then shoots backward 15-20 feet, all so fast you don't have time to run far enough. Be carefull, expect the worst...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Fla._Deadheader


Exactly as Pinewoods says. Especially after you never said in the OP, that the other tree limbs were resting in a crotch. That's a whole nother situation.  ::)  Best to leave it alone, OR, find someone that knows what they are doing.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

thecfarm

I've cut many trees.And every so often one will not do what I had planed. I just stand back using my escape route,saying good thing I'm back here.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Kevin

Without having any equipment to work with you can fall the tree it is hung in and then go back and cut it if it doesn't fall on its own.

Phorester


Winter snows might bring it down.....

Quote from: Kevin on October 24, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
Without having any equipment to work with you can fall the tree it is hung in and then go back and cut it if it doesn't fall on its own.

Usually I wouldn't recommend doing this, but looking at your picture, the standing tree it's hung up in is pretty far away from the hung tree and it looks like very open woods, where you could have a clear escape route no matter which direction the standing tree fell. The limb crotch where the leaning tree is hung looks as if it would prevent the hung tree from sliding down the trunk of the standing tree as that one fell.  But it would also push the standing tree in some direction as it fell.   If you could fell the standing tree without it's top hanging up in another tree, it might work. And again, it looks like open woods you have to work in (and run away in.......).

lowpolyjoe

Thanks for the continued advice everybody. 

I took half a day off work today.  Spent a little time seeing if my come along could pull this guy free.   It's not gonna happen.  The winch has barely any travel and my rope has so much give that it just stretched and stretched until I ran out of travel.   I should throw that winch in the trash.  I can't imagine a case where it would ever be useful.   

I was so frustrated that I got the saw out and almost went after it - but after some consideration I held off.   I had thought about taking down the live tree.   It's an option.   But as you can in the pic below, the hang up is tight.   Fork-to-fork. 


beenthere

I'd suggest to not pull with that stretchy rope either. If it should break, all heck will break loose.
Use rope, cable, or chain that doesn't stretch to be safe(r).

Put a come-a-long on a boat lift once, and the nylon rope held but the eye bolt on the lift broke. Took the rope hook back past the come-a-long and through two walls of a house. Fortunately no one was hanging onto the rope when it zipped past like a bullet.

Best leave it alone, sounds like.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

timberlinetree

We get trees hung up from time to time. Usually we cut a notch on the top side and then start an undercut. Continue this in 2 to 4 foot sections until the tree slides down through the crotch and lands on the ground. But first, I would cut the dead tree to the right (I have seen 3 separate trees fall down on perfectly calm days). Second, make sure you have wedges and a sledgehammer in case your saw starts to pinch. And as someone said, it looks like you have a nice escape route (no big boulders, brush, etc). Also a hard hat is mandatory. Lots of smaller limbs break off those dead trees... I've even seen them break in half. Good luck and be safe :)

Came across this one that made me nervous especially because the skidder was not on the job yet! 

 
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

lowpolyjoe

Quote from: beenthere on October 26, 2013, 12:32:18 AM
I'd suggest to not pull with that stretchy rope either. If it should break, all heck will break loose.
Use rope, cable, or chain that doesn't stretch to be safe(r).

Put a come-a-long on a boat lift once, and the nylon rope held but the eye bolt on the lift broke. Took the rope hook back past the come-a-long and through two walls of a house. Fortunately no one was hanging onto the rope when it zipped past like a bullet.

Best leave it alone, sounds like.

That's scary.  I just had this rope laying around so I gave it a shot, but that sort of thing could have happened so i'm pretty lucky nothing snapped.

timberlinetree - Thanks for the advice.  I had thought of a similar plan... cut with a deep wedge on one side with a flat top and angled bottom.  Then maybe a downward angled back cut from the other side to meet the wedge and cause the tree to slide off the stump in a predictable direction while I stand on the opposite side.  Repeat as needed to drop the tree enough to get the crotch to untangle.   I just don't know if I have confidence in how the tree will behave after each cut, especially the last cut that gets it out of the hang-up

I'll let you guys know if I try anything

Kevin

You use a slice cut to get a tree like that off the stump but In your case I wouldn't recommend it as it becomes very unpredictable when the tree is vertical and you are under it as it falls.
You'll end up looking like a squirrel in the middle of a freeway.
It's doable but you want to put a rope in the top of it with a running bowline before you cut it and pull it out before it clears the snag.

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