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New to Timber Stand Improvement (and this forum) Where to start?

Started by Dieselrider, November 03, 2006, 12:49:17 AM

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Dieselrider

Hi all,
     I have about 35-40 acres of woods on our farm. It was logged 15 or so years ago and was poorly done. I now have alot of very large Beech (which is in need of girdling or removal) and alot of verious size hemlock in my "woodlot". There are some more desirable trees but it certainly isn't a great timber stand. I have started cutting out some of the hemlock to allow some light to the forest floor and encourage hardwood growth. Should I be removing all the conifers at once and then thin the undesirables out as they arrive and keep the desirables pruned up for better growth? OR, should I just thin the conifers a little at a time to allow a slower reforestation of the more desirable hardwoods? ??? ???
    I am not a forester by any means and do not claim any knowledge but I am willing to learn. I want to improve the stand even if I do not get the profits from it and pass it on to whomever comes after me. I am also planting a little ginseng here and there with the hope of seed and root production in the future.
    Do you guys have any suggestions for someone just getting started with this kind of endeaver? Ready to learn!! :P :-\ Thanks in advance.
Always try to be the best, but never think you are the best.

SwampDonkey

Just piping in here with some ideas beyond timber production. I'm not suggesting that anything is wrong with your plans. But, one thing (or two) had me wondering. I was wondering why the desire to remove the large beech or girdle them. Recently, I read a report of a study done on pileated wood peckers. It was found in the study that larger trees, especially beech, were favored by these wood peckers for making nesting cavities and finding food. So there may be value to leave a few scattered beech of 12 inches or more for these wood peckers. Also, beech is a good mast tree for wildlife such as deer, bear, and rodents. As far as hemlock is concerned, it is considered a legacy tree because it will live longer than many generations of tree species. Take balsam fir for instance, 60-80 years is about it and hemlock can live up to 600 years. It can provide a nesting platform for raptors also. I realize 40 areas isn't a huge forest, but if for instance a couple of pileated wood peckers, an owl and a family of new born bear found solace there wouldn't it be worth it?  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dieselrider

Hi Swampdonkey,
     Thanks for the reply. The one fear I have with the beech is several are now huge and hollowed out. If and when they come crashing down they smash everything in their path including any new growth hardwood they hit. They seem to be a very destuructive tree in that respect. Had the last logger removed them when the other timber was, I was told theywould have been good cribbing- although I don't know what they are using it for. I thought by girdling them they may rot where they stand and fall down a piece at a time and not all at once doing, hopefully, less damage when they come down. Am I wrong there? Maybe it will be better to just let them alone?
   As for the deer and turkey feed, in trying to grow ginseng on the forest floor, those animals can do alot of harm in crop damage. I have been trying to come up with ideas that would discourage them from browsing everything off. The bucks also tend to do alot of damage to the very young saplings here and there. I do hunt and have always felt it neat to see good deer "sign" in the woods before but, now that I have started to look at my woodlot as a source of future income, I see the damage they are doing. I am trying to keep everything in perspective as I attempt to learn what I am doing. I don't want to do things now that I regret in twenty or so years but I also don't want to not do something and also regret that down the road too. The hemloac are just so thick in spots that nothing else is growing in places. I will always leave a few but another of the very few things I have learned so far about ginseng is that it does not do well in a stand of conifers. It simply wont grow there. I can tell by the stumps that are present that these areas were not always mainly conifer and would like to get back some balance there.
     Wow, I have typed a long version here without realizing it. I hope this gives a clearer picture of what I am trying to do. Thanks again in advance for any thoughts you can give.
Always try to be the best, but never think you are the best.

WDH

I appreciate the fact that you are attempting to improve your timber stand.  In so many cases in the past, the natural forests were high graded when they were logged, and these stands are in poor shape, poor for timber production and poor for wildlife.  There are some things that you can do to significantly improve that stand for the future.  First, you have to have some basic knowledge of the trees species.  You did not say where you are from, but certain species have value as timber, certain species have value for wildlife, and some species just hold the world together and are not good for much at all.  The good thing is that some species are good for timber and for wildlife, and it is these species that I try to select for.  Oaks are a good example.  There is a good market for oak lumber and the acorns are a staple food for amny wildlife species.  Other good timber trees are yellow poplar, ash, cherry, and if you are lucky, walnut.  There are some good wildlife trees that you should leave when you find them.  Dogwood (the berries are an important source of food), mulberry, peersimmon, crab-apple, etc. 
So, what I do is walk through the stand with a hatchet and a squirt spray bottle with herbicide.  I don't try to kill everything by any means.  If I see a keeper tree, I look around to see what is competing with it.  If the competition is undesireable, I hack it with the hatchet and squirt a little herbicice in the hack.  Bigger trees require a hack about every 3 inches around the circumference of the tree.  Really big trees can be girdled with and chainsaw, and the herbicide is squirted into the girdle.  I particularly like to select for oak and ash.  Oak for both lumber for my wood working habit and ash for the value as a timber tree (here in the south, ash is one of the highest value hardwoods.  Not up to par with those fine nothern hardwoods, but not too bad).  Of course, cherry and walnut get the highest preference.  Now, by killing some of the undesireables, you are creating what the biologists call "dead wood".  Dead wood is great stuff for wildlife.  The worms, beetles, and grubs will use it.  Wood peckers really love it and I guarantee you the it creates wood pecker heaven.  If you leave some of those big hollow beech trees as suggested in a previous post, all the better because the birds and critters love den trees to raise their families.  If you think it through, that hatchet and squirt bottle, along with a little knowledge, can make a huge improvement in the value of that stand over time.  One caution:  when you select out the undesireables and reduce the competition for the desireables, you will open up the stand for more sunlight, and all kinds of good wildlife goodies like weeds, forbes, and new growth will abound.  And, deer just love that...................................................................... 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dieselrider

Thanks,
    There is alot of food for thought there. Location- I am in central Pennsylvania and the heart of hardwood country.  8) I have a few oak, alot of beech, some maple (soft and hard) alot of birch, just a couple hickory, some cherry mixed in here and there and some walnut and a few tulip poplar on the land. And then there are the hemlock- it seems about every other tree in several places is a hemlock. How fast do they grow? I always believed them to be very slow growing and the smaller ones wouldn't get of any useful size in a long long time.
     I will keep in mind what you are saying ,especially about dropping too many trees and allowing too much light on the floor which will promote alot of thick ground cover. The hatchet and squirt bottle idea are good too, they would be easy enough to carry. Thanks again for the help. ;)
Always try to be the best, but never think you are the best.

Ron Wenrich

Here's the way I see your forest.  Its been put through a series of "thinnings" where they thinned out some pretty good sawtimber and veneer.  No thinning occured in the lower diameter classes or in the lower quality timbers.  As a result, the stand has enjoyed an aesthetic appeal, but has approached its climax species stage. 

Under normal conditions, a forest will go through many stages before it reaches the climax stage.  The various stages involve how the species interact with light tolerance.  The less tolerant the species to darkness, the more apt it is to being a pioneer or intermediate species.

Some pioneer species include eastern red cedar, cherry and aspen.  Intermediate species may include red oak, ash, and tulip poplar.  The primary climax species in eastern hardwood forests are beech, white oak, and hemlock.  Those will be the dominant species until something happens to the stand.

The biggest problem with beech is that not only does it reproduce with beechnuts, they also reproduce through sucker sprouts.  Density underneath the canopy is usually so great that there isn't enough light to germinate any seeds.

It sounds like you have enough good stuff growing that you can get rid of some of the less desirable stuff.  To keep too much light from coming in, you should keep your stand basal area at 70 sq ft/acre or above. 

How do you figure if you have 70 sq ft?  Hold a quarter out 33" from your eye.  If the quarter covers the tree, you count it as 10, if it doesn't cover the tree, you don't count it.  Trees right on the edge should be counted every other one.  You stand on a point and make a circle, counting which trees are in.  You want from 7 to 11.  Just cut the worst first.

You could also buy an angle guage or a prism to do the same task.  The quarter is the cheapest and quickest method to do this.  Also, its very low tech.  To get the 33 inches, simply take a string and knot one end.  Put that between your teeth, and measure 33 inches.  That's where you hold the quarter. 

I would get rid of the hemlock.  It makes great cover for the deer.  Room and board, all in one woodlot.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SPIKER

I belive that in PA you can get in contact with a loacl state forester and get help just like in ohio.   you didn't say how many acres you have?   also consider that if you DO start cutting many of the beech that not only do you open up the light to the understory you also can open up the rest of the slightly younger trees to the winds & make the forest susceptable to wind/ice/storm damage.   those beech may be pretty hollow but they are also very strong trees for the most part.   they are the dominate species and are the higest story trees this means they shelter prety much every thing around them under them as well as the trees close by.   trust me when one of those strong ice storms with wind comes by few of the under story trees will not be effected if the beech are not there to shelter them.   My woods took a beating the last 3 years, wind, ice flooding and all 3 combined have toppled many a cherry & maple, only lost a few heavly grape vine covered beech branches.   where several BIG oak & beech were removed just about every close by tree suffered some sort of damge.   I still have several 60+' cherry trees under 14" dia that were snapped off and or uprooted from the winds that penertrated the stand.   

anyhow my woman is crying about me being on-line for 10 min while she gets to be all day long...  I got to go.

Mark M
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

SwampDonkey

I have mostly red maple, spruce and fir on my lot, but I also have pockets of aspen, sugar maple and cedar. And white ash, tamarack and white pine are scattered. The pine and tamarack I planted as well as most of the spruce. Although, the majority of my woods are softwoods, I'm also trying to promote butternut, basswood, red oak, and the ash. The ash seems quite common on my ground and I didn't have to plant it. I'm especially interested in the ash as i like the form, flowers and the growth rate and the wood is excellent for wood working. Even the fall foliage color is great, but very brief. I only have one wild basswood that I've found so far and I've planted many seeds, no sign of new seedlings yet. I have 3 wild transplants on my lawn (my seed source). The oaks have begun establishing thanks to the moose and my planting activities. The butternut are from my plantings,and they are slow to develop until well established root system. I want some hemlock to plant, all I have is one or two wild seedlings along the property line. I'll be using transplants, hopefully this spring before I get real busy again with my thinning crews. I've got to space about 12 acres on my woodlot this year, because some areas are getting really tight. You guys have deer terrorizing your woods, I have moose. I have deer also, but not a nuisance. They even take at my softwood and strip bark and tops off their victoms.  ::)

Also, been having a good time working with black walnut and bitternut hickory seed. The snow shoe hare will eat about anything including spruce, cedar and all varieties of deciduous trees and shrubs.  Nothing is sacred. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maplewoman

I don't know about your pines but in Australia most pine trees are associated with poor soils, acidic soils. After pine plantations have been harvested the soil is concidered dead, no microbial activity, no germination of any species and nutritionless soils. Pines are monocotyledons and can compete vigourously with dicotyledons because of the different chemicals extruded by the roots. My advice would be to make sure that when you plant these trees where pines have been that you use a fertilizer specifically blended for your soil. Make sure that it has the banificial bacteria included for growing dicots.
Healthy soils mean healthy trees. Fast growing trees are no good, they are weak and suceptible, that is why fertilizer type is paramount. Nutritech Solutions in Oz provides soil nutrition and  I love their concepts. I beg you do not put on chemical fertilizers they will kill your soil, might make your tree grow fast but they will be unsustainable. cheers! Keep up the planting. Lou

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