Non-Ethonol

[Yoopersaw]

I found a source for non-ethonol premium gas.  I havn't tried it yet; but, what if anything can I expect to see.  It'll be run in a 372XP and a 630 Super.

[clww]

More power, and fewer rebuilds due to no gumming up of fuel lines and carbs.

[tyb525]

You can expect to see nothing but good things. Longer storage life, better performance, longer life of carb parts and fuel lines, less chance of water in gas, etc.

[petefrom bearswamp]

I'm sure the ethanol is not good, but I have a 1973 vintage super XL12 Homelite that I keep at my Adirondack camp.
It sets around for months at a time with the blended gas and starts on the 3rd or 4th pull every time.
This causes me to marvel at why Homelite has faded into the mist.
Pete

[maple flats]

I'm sure the ethanol is not good, but I have a 1973 vintage super XL12 Homelite that I keep at my Adirondack camp.
It sets around for months at a time with the blended gas and starts on the 3rd or 4th pull every time.
This causes me to marvel at why Homelite has faded into the mist.
Pete

You are lucky. I had an old XL12 too, It was the hardest starting saw I ever had.

[nmurph]

You will see no change. If ethanol blended fuel is left with the lid open, it will pick up some water which is not good. But if you keep the lid on, and keep you fuel less than a couple of months, then there is no problem. I have seen many fuel lines turn to mush from mix being left in the tank.....guess what; this mix was from long bf there was such a thing as blended fuel. Ethanol might have a small influence on rubber degredation, but it is much smaller than it is made out to be, and it will have no effect on performance. I have many saws, many of which will not be run for weeks at the time, none of which have any problem with starting.

[tyb525]

Ethanol has a huge effect on rubber not made to withstand ethanol, namely the older saws. 2 stroke gas-oil mix does not cause rubber fuel lines to turn to mush, unless it has ethanol (or another variety of alcohol) in it, which it probably did.

[nmurph]

I will repeat, I have saws older than you that had never seen ethanol and had mushy lines. If you don't think mix will destroy rubber, you are seriously uninformed. If it (ethanol) were the beast it was made out to be, there wouldn't be a piece of two-stroke equipment running as virtually every station now sells blended gas. Can gas go bad and damage carbs?? Sure. But is it significantly worse with ethanol than without? I don't see the evidence. If I have a choice bw blended and non-blended, I wouldn't drive five miles out of the way to get the non-blended. I have saws that have been running ethanol laced fuel for years and are still running the original lines (and I don't empty the fuel when I am finished). Besides, fuel lines are made to be replaced; it helps the dealers make their boat payment.

[John Mc]

nmurph, try convincing the repair shops around here that ethanol blended fuels don't make that much difference. I've spoken with three who have seen a significant increase in problems with fuel lines and internal corrosion since ethanol fuels became widespread here in Vermont.

Newer fuel lines are more resistant to ethanol, but not necessarily completely ethanol-proof. Some types of rubber or plastic are not all that resistant to oil, so maybe it's not all that surprising that the fuel-oil mix might eventually start to make them mushy, especially older lines which may not have been all that oil resistant. Other fuel additives also can attack some kinds of rubber or plastic (I believe MTBE may have caused some problems).

Closing the lid tightly on a lot of equipment will not prevent ethanol from picking up moisture from the atmosphere. Eventually, when it picks up enough moisture, phase separation will occur, and the ethanol-water mix settles out. This mix is corrosive, and will cause problems. With a vented fuel tank, this will happen even with the cap on tightly. Changes in temperature will cause it to happen more rapidly - as the air expands and contracts in the tank, it is forced in and out of the vent, bringing in new air, and new moisture.

[nmurph]

I think this article sums up the ethanol hype pretty well.

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-6015/BAE-1746pod.pdf

[John Mc]

Interesting article. I wish there was a date on it. I've read other research that reached the opposite conclusion as far as the chance of phase separation from pulling moisture from the air (I just can't find it now).

If the article is right, I have to wonder what caused the uptick in business for the repair shops. Maybe it's just an increase in new chainsaw users (fuel prices started moving up around the same time, increasing interest in firewood. I also have to wonder how the fuel tank on an engine stored in a garage got phase separation with the E10 fuel stored in it. It was not exposed to rain or damp conditions (it was exposed to my stupidity in not draining the fuel when it would be sitting for a while).

[nmurph]

Read this article, particularly the bottom of page 4 and page 5. The role of MTBE is also addressed in relation to two-stroke engines.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

[John Mc]

Another interesting article. There does appear to be one flaw in the examples they give. When they speak about condensation, they speak about a gallon of gas in a sealed tank, and say it would take 200 gallons of high humidity air sealed in the tank to cause separation. Since many fuel tanks are not sealed, it can take far less airspace in the tank to cause a problem. A vented tank basically takes a new "breath" of air with every temperature change.

Either way, the recommendation to keep tanks full is a good one. If you can't drain the tank completely after use, minimizing the airspace does help.

[mad murdock]

Ethanol is not the only problem with gas of recent years, another is the long laundry list of aeromatics they put in gasoline, toluol, xylene, benzene, ketones, etc. etc. these have a dramatic negative effect on rubber and composite parts that are not specifically formulated to withstand exposure to such chemicals.  You get swelling, distortion, and even material breakdown in the presence of some of these substances.  The only source of pure unadulterated gasoline is at an airport, when you buy the aviation grade 100LL blue gasoline.  It will not break down, can sit in a tank for months and sometimes years at a time and still be ok, unlike most modern automotive gasoline.  Ethanol only adds more problems, besides the fact that you are displacing the potential power of 100% gas with 10 or 20% ethanol, (which has less BTU's per cc than gasoline), so you will have an engine that will not run as well, and will not produce as much power as it does with straight gas, unless the tuning is controlled by a computer, (which most modern engines have, even chainsaws), then you will get the power, only by consuming more gas, as it takes more of it to produce the given amount of power, (less btu's/cc with ethanol).  Kind of the same thing if you think about heating your house with firewood, you can heat it with a good hardwood mix, and do well, or you can heat it with some dry aspen species, and heat it just as well, only go through about 1/3-1/2 more wood per a given time period, as the btu's are not the same with every fuel source. FWIW.

[Dan_Shade]

alcohol is very corrosive, it absorbs water, and needs a higer air/fuel ratio to properly run.

I'm not sure if the gas stations here use alcohol or not.

[Bernhard]

We have offered  E 10 fuel here since January, but noone wants it, cause You have no warranty if the european engines can stand it.Off course, we have smaller displacement in our car engines by more power output in relation to the USA.

But for our engines I also will got ahead by usingg the unleaded fuel, I´m using for more then 25 years.

Bernhard

Excepted our VW Passat, youngest and eldest daughters SEAT Arosa and Ford Focus

http://www.autoplenum.de/Auto/SEAT/Arosa/Modell-Bild-id16.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Ford_Focus_2004.jpg

rest of familiy is running Diesel