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I just got home with a 2011 LT35HD - I need your counsel on how to succeed.

Started by MikeySP, January 30, 2019, 05:14:30 PM

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Southside

He will have an investment in that lumber, to say the top is not worth covering is the same as throwing money away, best to cover it as you described earlier. As far as the stack photos, the one resting on two 2 x4's is either waiting for a forklift or going to make some designer firewood. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ianab

Quote from: MikeySP on April 05, 2019, 11:34:29 PMfound this statement online: I don't cover the top pile - to me it's not worth the time. It's cheaper to lose the top row than fool around with having a good cover.


I guess that depends on the value of the wood. I've got a stack of Blackwood Acacia drying now, and it's worth $100+ per layer. I've taken the time to cover that top layer with some scrap boards and a tarp. Keep the sun off that stuff. If it was pine fence boards? Meh. There's wood that's 50c per bd/ft, and there's wood that $10, it's reasonable to treat them differently. 

The sun is usually the killer as it will crack and discolour the top layer in days. So a layer of scrap slabs works as a "sunshade". The "top" layer is now the 2nd from top, and protected a lot better.  
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

MikeySP

Southside and Ianab, thank you very much.

Am I on track in reference to spacing of stickers/supports with the following numbers?

Board thickness to support distances? Walnut/Oak/Hickory.
24" for 1"
36" for 1.75"
48" for 3"
6ft for 8"

Also, I saw a video last night where the guy said always put the pith side to top creating a smile with the growth rings. I had not heard that in any other reading. What say ye?

I am about to head out. I will check on my phone when we stop sawing.

I know I have a LOT to learn and I am ashamed to say that I thought (before getting the sawmill) I could learn all I would ever need in a week.  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D. To make a circular thing into a "somewhat" 90 degree angle thing is a WHOLE lot different than being a professional sawyer.

My hats off to you. The pebble is going to be in your hands for some time to come "dads", but who knows, maybe one day, I will snatch it from your hands :), get my own light saber, and head to the black gate to fight orks, and cast the precious in to mount doom, after I cut the trees down... sorry treebeard.

Have a great day and THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

Very satisfied, even with the nightmare letter from the IRS when I got home the first day of this job. They know I have the precious, and they wants it!

-Mike

Magicman

Keep in mind that there will be customers that will not follow your proper advice regarding stacking/stickering their lumber.  It's sorta that old "you can lead a horse to water........"

Yes, I will tell them what to do but I will not argue.  Sometime lumber is stacked/stickered as it is sawn but many times it goes onto a trailer to be hauled to the barn, etc. for proper stacking.  There are other times when it is dead stacked to be handled later.  Maybe it gets done and maybe it does not.  I have driven by locations months or even years later and the lumber was still as it was when I left.  :-\  Last year I was sawing for a repeat customer and there was a stickered stack of Oak completely overgrown with briars and rotting to the ground.  I said nothing, just kept on sawing.  ::)  
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WV Sawmiller

   Don't know where you got your thickness to support figures. They may be right but I'd be more comfortable with 2' centers on all supports. Also again just me, but I would turn the smile down. It seems to me wood tends to cup in that direction. Probably does not make a lot of difference if tightly stacked with plenty of weight on top. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

doc henderson

I know the outer rings with shrink more and if you are building a deck, I would make smiley faces so if when the boards cup the hump will be up and shed water.  also not catch someone's toe or shoe and make them fall. but not for a stickered stack. That photo of a stack needs ground support under each row of stickers, and the animated one is not to scale.  
the force is strong in this one say I.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

MikeySP

Sure wish I could have attended the Sawing Project, but I think I made the right choice for this year. I am still drinking through a fire hydrant.

Magicman, in my case, I felt that I did not communicate enough detail prior to the job, so the customer thought he could do it when it was convenient - couple weeks. I am pretty tired right now, but I plan to reflect on all that has passed and make some notes of lessons learned and I have much to refine when it comes to customer communications.

WV Sawmiller.... I just made that span data up :) , except for the 24"... that I read online. I assumed as it got thicker, spans could increase. I went with 24". 

Here is the  stack base photo. I am grieved I did not take a photo of the lumber all stacked. fter 12 hours of labor and 30min for lunch, we were shall we say, tired and it slipped my mind. 



 

Doc/WV, I ended up just stacking and did not remember to consider smiles. I am glad to hear it is not critical. I think/hope I would remember if it was a critical issue. That would not be fun restacking.


Doc, I took your advice. On the way in to his place yesterday morn, I called customer and told him that we should forgoe sawing for the day. I would just come as a friend and help him set up his lumber for air drying, no charge. I got there, made some calculations, and we headed off to lowes for some blocks and "lumber" :) . Came back and got the platform done about lunch time. Then we set up a cleaning and Timbor spray station. Then loaded his trailer and drove across yard to air - drying platform and stacked about eight or ten different stacks, got some temporary cover that he is going to improve upon this week. 

He had paid me the night prior for the two days dine and four hours of hourly rate sawing for Saturday.... Well, as I was getting the four hours pay out to return it to him, he hands me a very nice check and when I protested, he insisted and said, it was well earned, I worked hard and deserved it. I was blown away. I may sell my saw and get into stacking lumber :).

I got home at 9:30PM and I was tired sarge. 

Below are some pics. We got all the walnut stacked and all the heavy lumber, minus the large beams. He is going to move the beams with his tractor - heavy stuff.  He also said he would handle all the light weight oak himself.

After I sort through all that happened over the next few days, I will post some lessons learned and questions to learn how to solve them. 



 

 

 



The wet look is from the solubor and rv antifreeze spay.

 

 

doc henderson

The pictures I am seeing, are those of a very professional sawyer.  Best Regards Sir!
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

scsmith42

Lots of great advice thus far in this thread from many seasoned professionals.

I'll add a couple of comments from the peanut gallery.  ;D

First, RV antifreeze is not necessary as a carrier for the solubor unless the lumber is already dry.  For green lumber fresh from the log, water is fine.  The moisture already present in the lumber will help wick the solution deeper into the boards, which is why water is ok on green lumber.  The advantage that RV antifreeze provides on dry lumber is that it won't evaporate very quickly, allowing the wood to stay moist longer and allow the solution to wick further into the boards.

Second, as time progresses you will learn that there are many different methods of milling.  Milling for yield, milling for grade, quartersawing, milling beams, etc - all may have different optimum approaches.  For grade milling, as Gene has stated it's best to mill parallel to the bark.  However, this is not necessary if you're milling barn siding or horse fencing.  Centering the pith on each end of the log is critical if you are quartersawing, and it's also pretty important if you're milling beams and timbers.

The growth rings in boards tend to try to straighten out as they dry, or in other words they will cup towards the bark.  If the top boards of an uncovered stack are placed pith down, then as they cup they will trap water along the board - causing it to rot but keeping the water out of the stack.  If you place the top boards pith size up, as they cup they will flow water off of the sides of the boards and into the stack.

Dry stickers - don't recall if I saw that mentioned in the 16 pages thus far but if you use green stickers on green lumber you will usually end up with sticker stain.

Re dry stacking green lumber, the key number to remember is 50.  50 degrees that is.  Most mold/milder that I've seen starts at temperatures higher than 50.  So if you're milling in the middle of winter and it's 30 degrees out you can dead stack for far lumber than if it's July and 80 degrees.  In the latter instance, you better sticker every day.

Best to start your stickers within 1" of the end of the stack.  Certain species such as white oak will usually not crack/check past the first sticker, so if you stack with the sticker at the ends you will reduce the potential for significant end checks.

Also, when stacking place your highest grade boards at the bottom of the stacks so that the weight of all the lumber above them helps to keep them flat.  Also a sheet of plastic put down on the ground below the bottom layer helps to keep some bugs away and also promote more even drying (no moisture wicking up from the ground beneath the stack).

I like to stack in 40 - 48" deep stacks because that matches up with more fork lengths.  It really sucks to pick up a 54" wide stack with some 42" forks and watch the far side of the stack sluff off....  Sometimes the stickers will help keep the higher boards in place but you still lose the bottom board (and sometimes a few above it) if your stacks are wider than your forks.

Best of success to you.  Your attitude is great.

Scott


Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

WV Sawmiller

Grasshopper,

 WARNING, WARNING, WARNING Will Smith Robinson - it looks like you put a lot of time and effort into that stacking base however I hope it is not a great big square like that without enough air flow between the stacks. :o I had a customer one time make a single stack 8' square then wanted to completely cover it with a tarp. I got him to remove the tarp and break that down into 2-4X8 stacks laid end to end for better air flow.

 I never make a stack over 4' wide and prefer 3' although I see lots of well stacked piles that are 4' wide. Hopefully some wiser and smarter people will chime in on this issue.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

doc henderson

do not want to disagree with WV, but I think it was Will Robinson on lost in space that the robot would caution!!!  and Dr. Smith that always fowled things up.   :D :D :D.  Mike I think you did good and we all do it a little different.  Mayby your client can text you a pic so we can see it.  osb or plywood would work ok to cover.  You do want stack of boards oriented so the breeze to come in from the side of the stack
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

WV Sawmiller

Doc,

   That is correct. Good catch. Yes, Dr. Smith was the weasel stow away as I remember of course my memory could be going. They say it is the second thing to go and I can't remember what the first one was. :embarassed:
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

doc henderson

I asked yellow hammer that question, and he likes 42 inch wide pallets by 8 or 10 feet so they fit in the kiln and side by side on a trailer, so the straps can strap the load with the hooks inside the rub bar.  I think Jake's were 4 x 10 feet with cross members every 16 inches.  Mike if your getting any lumber from your less than perfect logs you have described at home, you might make a few pallets.  hope to see you next year at the project.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

MikeySP

Doc, as always, thank you for the enCOURAGEment and words of wisdom. I too hope to meet you gents next year. I will ask him to take a pic when he removes the temp plywood cover to reinstall it more properly. I hope... and think?? he will do this. However, after several hours yesterday, he was joking about how much work it is and said he wonders if he shouldn't have turned down my offer and left it to rot into high dollar firewood, took the beams and burned the walnut :). We had a good time, but we worked! 

scsmith42, that was a very valuable post. Thank you very much for chiming in! Since it was a last minute emergency mission to get him stickered, we just went to lowes for the blocks, 4x4s, and used 3/4 plywood for the stickers. 

WVSawmiller, I hope I am OK as the platform has no stack wider than about 20" and I do have it oriented so the prevailing winds from the south come into the side. In hindsight I would have done smaller stack area anyways. He is not forklifting anything, but it was a little more tedious to get in the middle (hurdles). However, it is multiple stacks separated, so I hope we are ok there. He wanted a lot of different unique sized cuts, so we stacked according to type, or similar. n

If I need to, I will go back and redo the whole thing myself, but I THINK I am OK?? What say ye?

At this point, I have very little conviction on the how/why of doing what I do. However, I think I will get my convictions as to how it should be done, or how I should do it. I hope am always teachable and willing to do it different when I ought to. 

I cannot repay you men for all your kindness. However, I am very grateful!

Have a good evening's rest!

-Mike

doc henderson

It has been and is my pleasure, and I am quite sure I speak for everyone.  Remember we do not have to read or chime in.   :)  I bet his wood will be fine.  You should sleep well. lots of hard work and a great first sawing job.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

scsmith42

Quote from: MikeySP on April 07, 2019, 10:13:25 PM
scsmith42, that was a very valuable post. Thank you very much for chiming in! Since it was a last minute emergency mission to get him stickered, we just went to lowes for the blocks, 4x4s, and used 3/4 plywood for the stickers.
Mike, Glad to help.

Lowes also sells spf 1x2's, which measure 3/4" x 1.5" x 8'.  You can cut them in half and net a couple of 4 footers, and they are the correct thickness.  Much less work than using plywood, and they won't delaminates in the weather.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

Mikey, I've got to say that if I ever wanted to hire a sawmiller, it would be you!  Above and beyond service, for sure, even though you are just getting experience, it won't be long and you will be getting more business than you can handle.  

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WV Sawmiller

Grasshopper,

   Let's all keep our fingers crossed as if there is sufficient air flow all will be fine but just keep the width in mind on future projects. Well done and congratulations. As long as the customer is happy you have done very well. Keep up the good work.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Southside

One thing to just keep in the back of your mind too is that it is possible to set up a stack to air dry too quickly - yea I know we are getting into reverse logic here and Egon said to never cross the streams, "crossing the streams is bad" but a couple of really good examples of that were pointed out this weekend at the sawing event.  They included things like a stack of red oak being place on the top of an open hill in August in TN with the prevailing winds coming in from the sides, didn't work out too good, so the door swings both ways and you have to take that into account when deciding where to place your stack, one of those factors being if it is a species that is sensitive to drying too quickly and just what environmental conditions it will be exposed to.    
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Magicman

 


Here is a stickered stack of Red Oak flooring that I have air drying before it goes to the kiln.  It's under a shed with the West side blocked by other dry lumber and the South end blocked by firewood.  Random boards were also placed on top after this picture was taken.  I looked at it this past weekend and everything looks good.  It was sawn January 5th and will soon make it's trip to the kiln/plane/T&G. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

kkennedy64

WOW, lot's of great info on this string!  Thank you to all you experienced guys for sharing with us newbies.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDG26

YellowHammer

I had air dried stacks of lumber in one place and destroyed it, moved the next stacks a couple hundred yards away and they did great.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

MikeySP

scsmith, I am going to saw up a BUNCH of stickers and get them air dried and ready to go as an option for the customers to purchase. Will pine work? If air drying won't do it, I can make a ragtag sticker solar kiln to really bake them. Not a big problem for perfect as they are stickers, not furniture.

I am also thinking of changing to 1" stickers since we are a high humidity area, real high.

YellowHammer, Thank you very much for such a compliment. It is a very humbling and I would be intimidated sawing for you, but I hope to be worthy of the high praise through steadfastness and diligence. A gentlemen who has been helping me a lot through this told me he really respects you and learned a lot from you this weekend in GA.  Actually, my current close targets include contacting you about a good 1 or 2 day visit. I read you are getting a new baby (LT70 Super) in your sawing shed today, so I am sure you have your hands full, but as soon as it would be a good fit for you to have a servant come sweat and feed on the experience, grasshopper is at your service sensai and I am wide open, and can come at a days notice, barring any other hard commitments coming onto my calendar.

Yellowhammer, i just noticed your last post. Do you have any idea what caused the difference int he two locations that one would destroy lumber and the other dry it?

WV Sawmiller, aye, I will ask him to take a periodic look at it when he is cutting his grass to see if any problems show up. I will indeed keep this in mind. As a wise friend told me going into this first sawing job, if you throw a round (shooting term for missing your target), stay focused or you will throw another. I will definately keep this in mind for the future. I should not have missed it, i did, but will remember this.

I really wwant to saw more, as that brings the right questions to be answered to the light. While I also DO NOT want to be sawing so much (yet) that I do not have time to refine and get my blackbelt in sawyer kung fu. Striking the balance, being diligent, finding my niche, and sawing, sawing, sawing.

Southside...? Hey someone stole your "Logger"? Or are you some sort of Norse Pirate who stole my friend's identity? That is an excellent point about lumber that requires slower drying times and I am glad you pointed it out as I am at a point where 2+2=4 is easier than I before E except afetr C.  The letter of the laws are easier than understanding the spirit of the law, but when this sort of info comes to me, it helps remove the fog and tunnel vision from my eyes to aceive understanding.

Magicman, thank you for the photo. It appears you have at least 1" stickering and the timeframe is cooler than what is coming. However, I put more space between the stacks and the widest stack we have is about the width of that shorter stack.... on to kiln/plane/T&G hmmm.... that is very cool. I watched  a video last week of a family that harvests the trees and does every process all the way to installed and finished flooring.

kkennedy64, I agree wholeheartedly with you! Isn't this great. These men who are diligent, have sweat, are sweating, and they still sacrifice their time to streamline the learning and throw a line down the cliff to help their neighbors get to the summit safely and quicker than otherwise possible and to learn more than one man could learn alone in several lifetimes.

Thanks gents!

-Mike

MikeySP

Gentlemen, I am going to be transitioning to Turbo 7 degree double-hard blades. .042 x 1-1/4. Woodmizer DOES NOT recommend it for the LT35 BECAUSE the amount of board footage per sharpening is less from some testing they did as these are higher horsepower friendly blades as I understand it.

However, Southside uses them and has awesome results. I am going to purchase some, just weighing if it will be this week or not. Blades are free shipping for full box this month. 

Southside, did you keep sharpening and using the blades you had on hand for lower grade work until they were trashed thus phasing them out slowly... or did you stop using them completely once you started with the turbo 7s? 

Also, I have had lots of sawdust staying on my lumber after the pass. My alignment is very good as far as I can tell. 

Notes that may shed some light:

  • I said I had 4 degree blades I was using and all my 10 degree were dull. WRONG. The night before the job, I was packing and saw a sticker on the side of the box and I only have 10 degree sharp. 
  • I tried (here and on job) to go faster and slower on a pass to see what the results would be. No noticeable difference in sawdust remaining. 
  • I DID NOT USE any lube on the job. I tried lube the week before I left and caking nightmare occurred. I tried less lube, but still had problems. So, I was more generous with pinesol and dawn into the container for the job (cu instead of tablespoons), but I decided I would run it dry, watch the tension for heat and only use lube if the saw was not happy because my only attempts at lubing were not good. I need to watch a video showing the flow rate and figure which species require what. 
  • I also did not run the saw much at all if I detected any slight (real or imagined dullness). The man was paying for my service; so, I did not want to skimp at all on blades.


Thanks. -Mike


Southside

Mike,

This gets controversial so I will tell you my experience. Once I went to turbos for my 35 I basically never used any of the older other profiles I had laying around. I still have some 4's and some 10's. 

If I have a log that I am pretty sure has metal in it then I would grab one of those because I really didn't care if it got trashed. Once I transitioned any decent other profiles I had I boxed up and had Re-sharp take care of, then they became my "sacrafice" bands.  Understand though that by then I was selling lumber, sawing for others and generating money with my mill so I looked at it as an investment. I would not hesitate to use up a supply of good bands and get my money out of them just because they were less than perfect. 

In complete transparency I just ordered a box of Kasco's this morning for the 70 as I am trying a few new things on that saw. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

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