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Help needed in identifying White Oak from Chestnut Oak

Started by 123maxbars, November 10, 2014, 11:41:40 PM

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123maxbars

I need some help here on identifying some logs. The logger that brought them to me told me they are white oak logs, however since then we had a falling out and I no longer deal with him.  A friend of mine saw them last week and told me they looked like chestnut oak more than white oak. I have not uploaded a pic yet but will if needed. My question is when looking at only the log, what can i look for to tell the diffrence between the two? Thanks for any advice.
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I believe chestnut oak is a member of the white oak group...

Herb

WDH

The bark is very different.  Most species of white oak have bark that is ash gray or even almost white and scaly.  You can pick the scales off by hand.

Chestnut oak is also a white oak, but the bark is darker, ridged like a red oak, and has pronounced V-shaped valleys between the ridges.  Very very distinctive. 

Here is a pic of chestnut oak bark with the ridges and v-shaped valleys.  http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=76

Here is typical scaly white oak bark. http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=35
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kevin19343

Around here chestnut oaks seem to like rocky soil. They grow out of our stone walls all the time.

phinds

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Ron Wenrich

Chestnut oak is also called rock oak in our area.  The bark is darker than the white oak.  The chestnut oak is brown, and the white oak is gray.  The bark in the chestnut oak also tends to be thicker than the white oak.  They don't look anything alike. 

I've sawn more chestnut oak than white oak.  If it wasn't for chestnut oak, my upper quality white oak would be a lot less.  But, we sell a lot of the better white oak for veneer.  There is no veneer market for chestnut oak.

In our area, the chestnut oak has better texture and a darker brown heart than the white oak.   
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WDH

phinds,

Once again, excellent pics.  The presence or absence of tyloses is a distinguishing characteristic, but it can be a little difficult to tell from an end grain pic unless the cut of the end grain is made with a very sharp instrument like a razor blade. 

However, when you dry white oak versus red oak in a kiln, the difference is dramatic.  The white oak with the tyloses dries almost twice as slow  :) :-\.
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drobertson

there's no doubt that loggers know there timber, in a general sense, but believe if they are loggers, and not engaged in sawing, then the separation  begins when determining distinct variances in wood types.  This is not a gouge on loggers, just a generalization as I have noticed.  There are so many differing names for wood types and for the most part they are correct, just not on the exact specific species.   
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phinds

Quote from: WDH on November 11, 2014, 08:25:57 PM
phinds,

Once again, excellent pics.  The presence or absence of tyloses is a distinguishing characteristic, but it can be a little difficult to tell from an end grain pic unless the cut of the end grain is made with a very sharp instrument like a razor blade. 

However, when you dry white oak versus red oak in a kiln, the difference is dramatic.  The white oak with the tyloses dries almost twice as slow  :) :-\.

Sure, but since chestnut oak IS a white oak, the tylosis and the drying time won't help distinguish the chestnut oaks (Quercus castanea, Quercus densiflorus, Quercus montana, Quercus muehlenbergii, Quercus prinus) from the other white oaks (Quercus alba, et al). I think the TREE characteristics are more likely to be helpful (not that they would tell ME squat ... I'm only vaguely convinced that there's a connection between trees and the planks that I buy at lumber yards  :laugh:).

Also, my end grain pics are not razor cut and I disagree that they need to be. They DO need to be either razor cut or very fine sanded but I value my thumbs too much to try the razor cuts. I doubt that with a 10X loupe you'll be able to tell the difference. With a microscope, probably, but that's going farther than I care to try to take wood ID.

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WDH

I don't think that chestnut oak has tyloses, even though it is in the white oak group.  An oddity.

Maybe not razor cut, but at least not cut with a dull handsaw  :)
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Ron Wenrich

I've seen chestnut oak with and without tyloses.  Most times with.  But, tylosis is never found in red oak groups.  Since chestnut oak may have it, it falls into the white oak classification. 
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jcbrotz

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on November 11, 2014, 04:41:17 PM
Chestnut oak is also called rock oak in our area.  The bark is darker than the white oak.  The chestnut oak is brown, and the white oak is gray.  The bark in the chestnut oak also tends to be thicker than the white oak.  They don't look anything alike. 

I've sawn more chestnut oak than white oak.  If it wasn't for chestnut oak, my upper quality white oak would be a lot less.  But, we sell a lot of the better white oak for veneer.  There is no veneer market for chestnut oak.

In our area, the chestnut oak has better texture and a darker brown heart than the white oak.   


I got to ask are these the same? I have sawn both but am no expert by any means but they are different or at least the ones I cut were but what did I cut? that may be the question I need to ask only I cant cuz I pulled a magicman and sawed em and left em.
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Ron Wenrich

Rock oak is the common name for chestnut oak in PA. 
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Magicman

We have Swamp Chestnut Oak which apparently is different from Chestnut Oak?
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phinds

Quercus castanea = chestnut oak, upland chestnut oak, Mexican oak, etc, etc
Quercus densiflorus  = chestnut oak (no other common name in my database)
Quercus montana = chestnut oak, mountain chestnut oak, white oak
Quercus muehlenbergii = chestnut oak, rock chestnut oak, rock oak, etc, etc
Quercus prinus = chestnut oak, rock chestnut oak, rock oak, swamp oak, etc, etc

database w/ 140,000 common name, 26,000 species names (just wood-producing plants):

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/wood_name_database/index.htm


you can never have too much pepperoni on your pizza or own too many clamps
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Magicman

My Son Marty borrowed my "tree book", and I am sorta lost without it.   :-\
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Ron Wenrich

Swamp chestnut oak = Quercus Michauxii also known as cow oak or basket oak.  It is different, and they grow in different ranges.  It would still be in the white oak group.

We have swamp white oak in our area.  I've only seen it on a couple of occasions.  Much lower quality.
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phinds

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on November 12, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
Swamp chestnut oak = Quercus Michauxii also known as cow oak or basket oak. 

Ah ha! I missed that one (it is in my database, I just overlooked it). Thanks for adding that to the conversation.

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WDH

Quercus prinus and Quercus montana are the same species, both are chestnut oak.  I learned it as Quercus prinus, then later, the name was changed to Quercus montana.
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POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: WDH on November 12, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
Quercus prinus and Quercus montana are the same species, both are chestnut oak.  I learned it as Quercus prinus, then later, the name was changed to Quercus montana.

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The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

Quercus muehlenbergii is chinkapin oak, and is in the white oak group. 
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POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

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dyates

I dont believe true chestnut oak has tyloses.  Their absence is what prevents the use of chestnut oak in tight cooperage.  Split a small piece off, dip the end in soapy water, and try to blow some bubbles.
Daniel

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SAnVA

Don't know anything about that  tylosis stuff, but the difference in white oak and chestnut oak is easy in the log form and by the leaves once you've seen the two. Bark on a chestnut oak is very ridged (deep grooves) a darker color also than white oak which is a (flatter) thinner sort of scaly bark which is fairly light (white) in color. Leaves on the chestnut oak resemble the leaves on an American Chestnut!

Lumber Grader

You asked how to tell Chestnut Logs from White Oak Logs. Chestnut Logs are an Applachian logs not usually found the further South you go. I have graded literally millions of feet of Red Oak and White Oak Lumber in many different states, as I used to be an hardwood lumber inspector for the National Hardwood Lumber Association.  What is tough about Chestnut Oak is that the lumber looks sooooooo much like Applachian Red Oak, that it is hard for many full time hardwood lumber inspectors to tell Chestnut Oak (which is White Oak) from Appalachian Red Oak. If you are grading lumber in Jackson, Mississippi, it is easy to tell Red Oak from White Oak as the difference is stark to the eye.
If you are grading Red Oak lumber in Knoxville, TN area and some Chestnut Oak is mixed in with the Red Oak, many hardwood lumber inspectors would not spot it.  A true way to tell the difference is to look at the end of the board. Chestnut Oak pores will be closed at the end of the board, as it it a member of the White Oak Family and Red Oak pores will always be open. That is why Whiskey Barrel Staves are made only of White Oak, as pores are closed and water or Whiskey will not penetrate the wood or lumber due to the closed pores. Bottom line is you do not need to seperate Chestnut Oak logs from White Oak Logs as CHESTNUT OAK IS in the White Oak Family and is rightfully sold as White Oak Lumber. Hope this helps.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Indeed, chestnut oak is in the white oak group of species.  The species in this group have rounded ends of the leaves, somewhat sweet acorns with acorns that mature in one season.  (The acorns usually germinate immediately after falling in the late summer or fall, so they often freeze and die before they can form a durable sprout.  However, if buried by a squirrel , they are protected by being buried and will survive into the spring.  The rate of white sprouting in the spring is related to the squirrel population therefore.)

This group of species that we call white oaks are in the sub genus group called LEUCOBALANUS.  Of the twenty or so commercial species in this white oak group, most, but not all have their large pores occluded...that is filled with chemicals that block liquid movement, while red oak pores are open.  HOWEVER a, chestnut oak pores are open, even though chestnut oak is a white oak.  And there are a few other white oaks with open pores.  So, the "open pore test" is not useful for separating chestnut oak.  As mentioned, chestnut oak cannot be used for wooden barrels that will hold liquids (called tight cooperage), as it will leak.  (Did I ever mention that once Jack Daniels had an ad showing a forester leaning against a large chestnut oak tree, with the caption reading something like "we only use the best white oak for barrels..."  I wrote them a note informing them that chestnut oak cannot be used for whiskey barrels, even though it is a white oak and guess what I got back from them...a nice thank you letter!)

Separating chestnut oak logs is fairly easy, as mentioned in earlier postings.  However, separating the lumber is not possible...that is, we can easily separate red and white oak lumber into two groups visually (using ray width and length mainly) and also with sodium nitrite testing, but within the group, we cannot discern the actual species.  If we could see the pores on the end grain clearly, if the pores were open, and if we knew the wood was in the white oak group, then we could guess that we had chestnut oak, but there are other white oaks with open pores in addition to chestnut oak.
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phinds

Gene, I wonder if you can comment on something I've noticed? On this page

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_anatomy/ring%20porous/oak/_oak.htm

I show one sample of Quercus prinus and I noticed that the dendritic pore groupings show markedly wider branching than the others in the white oak group but I have no idea whether that's just a characteristic of the particular sample I happen to have or if it is more widely true of Quercus prinus in general. I noticed that it is not true of the two samples of Quercus muehlenbergii that I also show (which I have listed as chinkapin oak). Are you familiar with this level of detail?

Thanks,

Paul
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