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Edger & resaw ?s

Started by valley, October 06, 2012, 10:24:49 AM

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valley

I have been doing search after search on these additions to my mill I have a wood master 18 " plainer with log siding blades ecc bar and two blades for it. We seem to cut a good bit of siding I am really just wandering what owners of these two machines think of increased productivity ? If you just had one which one ? We have basically been doing edging and siding with the b-20 my future plans are to get away from the siding and home building products and focus more on supplying hard wood to cabinet shops also am soon going to be adding a kiln to operation really have not found mill nitch yet so not sure which direction were going 10 months in and stay pretty busy with it basically everything we have done is cypress cedar or hardwood the only pine I've cut is for myself I can't see competing with lumber yards on framing stuff any info greatly appreciated
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customsawyer

If your looking for increase in production my advice would be a edger. You might want to check with the cabinet shops and see what they are paying now and see if you can match it. The ones around here buy most of there stuff from the big mills and it is about like competing with the lumber yards on framing lumber. 
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
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Ron Wenrich

It seems like you're still trying to write your business plan.  Its hard to say where you should be trying to expand your production until you decide what niche you want to fill.  It seems that you have written off the framing lumber end.  Its really hard to compete with high production mills.

In my area, there are well over 200 cabinet shops.  Most of them are very small, and they go to lumber wholesalers for their stock.  Can you compete with them?  Maybe.  But, there is a reason that wholesale lumber operations don't have sawmills.  Cabinet shops don't use the low grade that's developed from mills.

Maybe your niche is providing those hard to find pieces that a cabinet shop needs for specialty products.  Wholesalers don't have that flexibility.  Maybe its specialty flooring.  Maybe its just construction lumber to the local farmers. 

My point is find your markets, then increase your production to those markets. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Larry

A lot of cabinet shops don't make doors anymore.  They are ordered from door factories at a cost that can't be beat in house.  That really reduces the amount and quality of the lumber they buy.

Now if you could find some plywood trees.....
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

valley

The reason I was thinking cabinet shop I know a few around here who have them I've actually had them build cabinets for some of the homes I've built they say they have to go to Memphis to get their oak 180 mile round trip they are paying close to 5.00 bf so one claims but I don't know that for fact he may have been justifying prices he has charged me I don't really know am just in thinking stages and yea I really need to figure out which way I'm going I've even thought about getting extensions and be able to cut 40 footers I don't know of any mill in north ms doing that I do think from what I'm reading an edger would be a nice addition
Have a great day unless you have other plans !!!

Larry

He's blowing smoke.  Last month at the mill price for 4/4 FAS1F kiln dried red oak was $1.80.  And that's not wholesale.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Okrafarmer

My one kiln dried wholesaler quoted me about $2/bf for high quality oaks recently, but said they couldn't sell any right now privately because they were behind on their contracts. There's another one that's retail, and last I checked it was about $3/bf kd and planed. Which I think is way too low to retail it for. That was pretty good stuff too. They must be dialed in to the best wholesalers to sell it for that price. I try to sell my good kd oak for $3 / bf, $3.60 if its planed. Lowe's sells it around $7 / bf.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

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Sawdust Lover

I have a cabinet shop and I have friends that have cabinet shops. I still sometimes have to buy my lumber from the bigger lumber yards because my lumber that I saw is not good enough quality. Not because of the sawing but because of the logs that I am sawing. My friends have bought from me before but it's hard to keep up with there demand of quality lumber. I do much better selling to the little woodworkers who like wood with character and only need a few hundred ft. Not a very good sales pitch on my end but it's the way it is. By the way I can buy fas 4/4 red oak in Va. for $2.00 a bf.

Okrafarmer

Green, or kd, sawdust lover?
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Kansas

Definitely the edger. The resaw is fine for pallet type lumber. You aren't going that direction. There could be some limited applications for the resaw, but probably not worth it.

Sawdust Lover

Quote from: Okrafarmer on October 06, 2012, 08:56:14 PM
Green, or kd, sawdust lover?
kiln dried. Go down the road 3 miles and get it at Lowes for $6.50.

Okrafarmer

Lowe's has dropped their price then. Time to quit milling oak until markets pick up a little. Hard to make a profit at those prices, unless you're lean and mean.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

I can buy green select and better red or white oak from the local production hardwood mill for $1 / bf right now. Well, last time I checked. They don't separate out FAS from select and better at this mill because that is how they are set up.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ron Wenrich

That's how the market's set up.  Some mills separate for grade at the wholesale end.  Rarely do they buy just FAS.  The normal is F1F and better in red oak.  We can't sell a select grade in my area.  But, we do separate for grade, since certain buyers only want certain grades.  You can get a little bit of a premium for the separation and usually its easier to market.

From a grade use standpoint, the F1F & better often go into trim and moldings.  The 1 and 2 Com are most used by cabinet shops, since they really don't need those long, clear runs.  They most often cut the boards into smaller pieces and glue them up.  Its an economical grade for them.  Flooring is most often 2 & 3 Com, since they can get away with a narrow strip.  A lot of people are ignorant of grade and how they can best use them. 

Log grade is the key to your expansion.  If you're looking at high end prices, you will want to get as much high grade yield out of your logs.  That means higher grade logs, and a higher price for them.  You still have to figure out what to do with the lower grade stock.  It will develop. 

The edger is a good addition no matter what you're sawing. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Okrafarmer

I guess when I said Select and Better, I used the wrong word. I meant F1F and better. Around here, when speaking out loud, they say "One Face" to refer to F1F. I forget now what select even is. I was thinking Select was the same as F1F.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

What grade is usually used for trailer decking? Is that #1 common, or does it much matter? Around here they like white oak for decking, are there other good species to use, too?

I agree about the edger. I will want one as soon as I can get the ducks lined up. Can only sell so much live edge lumber. . . . .
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

beenthere

Easy to confuse the hardwood factory grades with construction grades. The factory grades (FAS, FASIF, No. 1C, No. 2C, etc are cutting grades, where the boards are graded based on what they will yield in clear cuttings. Some rules as to grading from the worst face, except I believe for the FAS1F grade.

There are hardwood construction grades too. They are more similar to the softwood grades for grading a piece for its utility without further manufacter.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

drobertson

for what my opinion is worth, an edger is the only option, unless you are going into the pallet, cut stock market.  I picked up a single head resaw, 3 phase converter, chop saw idea of going this route. I simply am not fast enough for this,  I did get a single blade edger in the deal, but who wants to spend this much time resawing for .15 cents a foot with all the waste and labor.  The scrag mills and their design have this market. I edge on the mill, and it works for me, but after running a mill set up for production a week ago,  the edger is the way to go. I never would have believed it until I saw it, No pun intended. Edger for sure, just my opinion, for what it is worth..  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Chico

A resaw can also be used for grade set up properly with a merry go round you save all the time of carriage return waiting to set etc however I would get an edger first because it's such a time saver rather than edging with your headrig and time equates into prod
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Meadows Miller

Gday

Im with the Edger Boys  ;) As Resaws need stock to cut at higher rates and you have a B-20 TK from memory so the next logical step would be an Edger then add a Resaw to the Edger as the Edger will improve your mills production regardless of if you are sawing either grade or pallet by atleast 30% then if your looking for more production after that you can add the resaw and either cut double thick on the band mill pass it through the edger then the resaw or cant out and send it strait to the resaw  ;) My preferance is multi saw meaning wide enough that you can have 2 to 3 fixed saws say with three saws you can have the three fixed ones spaced at 4 & 6" and chase the larger sizes with the moving saw I usually leave the moving saw fixed at 8" most of the time then run boards that will yeald either 4-6 or or 4+6=10" through the three saws ;) then if something will yeald wider than 10" ill shift the saw to chase that width  ;)

I will add the Flow is key when you get to a multi saw unit sawmill as if one unit gets ahead of the other and you dont have storage capacity or a way to even it out it will cause  alot of headaches  ;) Another thing to consider if you do want to or see yourself upgrading the headrig at some stage build in extra capacity to the rest of your mill following it as then you wont be looking to upgrde the rest of the mill if you get a quicker headrig  ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

LorenB

Quote from: valley on October 06, 2012, 10:24:49 AM
I am really just wandering what owners of these two machines think of increased productivity ?

Valley,

I can't answer any questions about a resaw.  I've never used one.  I can tell you my experience with/without an edger. 

Shortly after I got my Baker sawmill I got a very large job, my first.  It wound up being about 25,000 board feet and took months of part time sawing to complete.  I was cutting large logs for an Amish builder who was intending to build a barn for a local fellow.  The builder provided help in the form of himself as well as one or two other workers to handle lumber and logs. 

For the first several weeks all the lumber from these large logs was edged on the sawmill.  I didn't want to waste any lumber, so the edging took more time than it might have.  We would load several flitches and I would edge the widest one or two.  Then we would remove the edged boards and lower the blade to edge the next one or two and so on.  It took forever. 

After a month or so of this, I figured out why Baker, Cook's and other sawmill manufacturers offer packages that include an edger.  I went shopping and found a small, inexpensive edger a couple hundred miles away. 

Even though that edger was so small that it wouldn't take all the flitches that came off those big logs, our production increased by over 75%.  The difference was remarkable. 

I suspect that we were also getting higher quality lumber as well, because I was now focusing on cutting for quality rather than trying to square-up the log as soon as possible. 

Having said all this, I think that the production value of an edger depends partially on how many people are working the sawing operation.  If you are working alone, an edger isn't going to increase production that much because there's only so much that a single person can do. 

With two people and a hydraulic sawmill you'll probably find a small (I'd guess 15-25%) increase in productivity, because your helper is going to stay busy just getting the boards off the sawmill and feeding logs to the operation.  With a manual mill the sawyer will take longer to handle and cut each log, so a single helper may be more productive with an edger as part of the operation. 

If you have a crew of three or more, like I did most days, you should see a large increase in production.  The sawyer can focus strictly on sawing, while two helpers remove boards, edge them as needed, and stack the lumber.  With my new, larger, Cook's edger, I can keep four people (including me) busy with the sawmill operation.  As you might imagine, production increases dramatically when you keep four people working. 

Even when I'm sawing alone, which I do occasionally for myself, I appreciate the edger.  It doesn't really save me much time because I have to stop sawmill cutting to run the flitches through the edger, but it is SO much easier to edge a board on an edger than to do it on the sawmill that it just makes the job more enjoyable.  When I get help, either from my son-in-law and grandson, or from my customers themselves, the edger really speeds things along. 

Don't make the mistake I did though.  Get an edger that is big enough to handle almost all of the flitches you are likely to cut.  That first edger would produce a board that was 12 inches wide, but it would not feed a flitch that was wider than 19 inches.  There are lots of times (bowed, branch stubs, larger logs) when you need to edge something that will not fit through a 19 inch opening.  The new Cook's machine is a big improvement, albeit much more expensive. 

Good luck with your choice. 

– Loren
Loren
Baker 3667D portable sawmill, Cook's edger, Logrite arches & peaveys.  Husky 272XP chainsaw & two Echos.

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