Update...and some questions

[ohsoloco]

Hello all.  Well, over the last six months or so I've had a lot of changes in my life.  I'm sure many of you remember me contemplating the build or buy question regarding a house a while back.  I've been looking for a place of my own for several years now.  28 years old and still with the parents wasn't going to cut it, so I moved into an apartment back in March...it wasn't two months later I found the house I wanted to buy  :    I'm excited to say the house is now mine...a little two bedroom ranch on 4.85 acres that borders state game land  8)   It's perfect for me and my little girl.  Yeah, I'm a dad now...she's a five month old lab mix  

Okay, to some of my questions.  I'd say over three acres of the land is wooded, and there's some really nice oak up there, mostly red....16+" dia.  The thing is, I hardly see any oak saplings or small sized trees.  A lot of the saplings I've been seeing look like tulip poplar and maple...with a few stands of shagbark hickory...quite a bit of large and small ash as well.  So why are there no small oaks up there?  I've been cutting a lot of fuel wood lately (dead stuff), and almost all of it is oak...mostly in the 6-12" diameter range at the butt.  Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  If any of this timber does get cut, it will just be a very selctive harvest done by myself over the next few years, but I'd hate to see the oak not get replenished.  I've seen some cherry too, but I've never seen such crooked trees in my life  :-/

[sprucebunny]

Oak is intolerant of shade. If you have large trees there is probably too much shade for the oaks to get started. That's my guess.
And congrats on getting a house!!

[ohsoloco]

Thanks, sprucebunny.  

I didn't know oak couldn't tolerate the shade.  So, if I start clearing some of the big boys out of there, would I see more oak come up  ???    I almost hate to drop any of those trees...I don't climb, and I know they'll take some smaller ones out when they go.

[beenthere]

You will put on the most volume growth on the 16+" trees you have, so I would not be too quick to cut them just to see smaller oak begin to establish themselves. If you can get 3/16" of growth each year that will be 3/8" of additional diameter. You can calculate what that would add in bf in 10 years, compared to a bunch of oak saplings in the same 10 years. The 16" tree may just be 19" in 10 years.
Enjoy your woods.

[ohsoloco]

I hear ya, beenthere...I'm in no hurry to cut any of these trees down.  I like 'em just where they are.  The only ones I was thinking of cutting were some of the ones that don't look too good in my book.  I've seen a few of 'em that have several nice trunks coming out of the bole, with one that died long ago, so there's now a nice hole and some rot in there.  Would it be wise to cut some of these down before the sound wood starts to rot?  These are really the only ones I'm considering cutting.  

[Ron Scott]

Maybe only do a light timber stand improvement taking out the "worst first". The oak needs some sunlight and maybe some ground disturbance. Be aware of any oak wilt or dieback problems in your area. Best to do any harvesting during or after August to better encourage any oak regeneration.

 Also take care of any deer problems. ;)

[ohsoloco]

Ron, I don't know of any oak wilt problems in my area, but I do know there's now a problem with it in Park Forest Village in State College...lots of BIG oaks up there.  I guess Patton township is now involved in it to stop the spread of it.  Here's another question...since I harvest urban timber, should I not mess with any oaks that may have an oak wilt problem?  My mill is not yet at my house (not enough flat land...yet), but I don't want to spread that stuff anywhere.  

"best to do any harvesting during or after August"....what time frame are you talking about, Ron?  From August until....?

Lots of nice buck on that mountain  

[Norm]

We built a dam a couple of years ago and cleared a lot of trees but left some big red oaks. On the dam berth this year I noticed hundreds of seedling red oaks but on the undisturbed grass near there none. We have a hard time getting red oak to naturally regenerate so I'm going to transplant a bunch from the dam to give them a headstart.

[Ron Wenrich]

I saw you lurking a couple of times.  I was hoping you'd be back on line.  

The only shade tolerant oak is white oak.  You may have a few of them sticking around.  But, regeneration isn't a concern unless you will be needing it in the near future.  You can thin and allow to grow.  I know one forester who manages for 36" trees.  He doesn't cut except for low quality, low vigor, or too many stems.

For oak, the best method is a shelterwood cut.  You cut all the junk out of the understory and thin the overstory to a point where there is sufficient sunlight.  Then let it seed in and remove the overstory.

Or you can do a group clearcut.   That's where you put in a small clearing in the woods of about 1/3-1/2 acre.  Everything should be cut.  Those 2" trees that are left over will overtake any anticipated regeneration.  

The clump of trees that you are talking about came from stump sprouts.  The rotten piece in the middle is where the tree was cut and the sprouts took off from the stump.  I see them all the time, especially on chestnut oak.  It makes for a deformed butt log.  There will also be a few that won't make it.

The other regeneration problem you might have is squirrels, chipmunks and deer.  They like to scarf up that mast whenever they get a chance.

The state was dealing with the oak wilt problem many years ago.  They used to cut them and let them lay.  But, they were isolated trees.  I was thinking the vector was more at the root level, since they killed all oaks in a 200' (?) radius.  

They could give you a better idea at the research lab at Penn State.  

[Cedarman]

There has been quite a bit of discussion in Indiana about why the number of oaks are declining in our woods.  Our woods today is a product of our treatment of the woods in the past. If you look at old photos from the 20's and 30's, you will see that the woods was cut extremely hard. The woods was burnt periodically  to make it easy for livestock to find the nuts.(Among other reasons) The woods was grazed heavily.  There were several big clear cuts made on federal land in the mid to late 70's near here.  So this discussion gives me a reason to go take a look and see if there is much oak growing.

[Ron Scott]

Any time period from August on to heavy snow cover so you can provide some good ground disturbance and expose mineral soil for oak regeneration to possibly get better established.

To prevent oak wilt don't do any havesting in the red oak during May 1 - July 15 or there about. Check out the concern periods in your area with your DNR Forest Health specialists, Extension Service, University Research etc.  

[SwampDonkey]

I've started some red oak acorns in under immature aspen. Very good germination and there is ample light, as the aspen hasn't a dense crown like the maples or beech. My problem has been snowshoe hair, almost every seedling has been nipped at the terminal.  :

I started alot of oak in my garden, which is now overtaken by grass. The grass makes a home for overwintering mice and moles which have girdled alot of the seedlings. I still have a decent number of seedlings which are starting to get as tall as the grass now. My plan is to transplant them into a 1/2 acre area of my lot when the oak seedlings are 2-3 feet tall. I tried transplanting the tiny seedlings there in early spring and no success. I beleive the grass was too tall for them. At the same time I transplanted sugar maple seedlings with good success in the same area. Also, I planted yellow birch in the grass, which became mice food.  >:( I have only had good success on sites that were herbicide with glyphosate to kill the grass. I now have 2 year old seedlings that range in height from 12 inches to 30 inches. I find the yellow birch grow faster in height with poplar competition around them, the ones out in the open are slower growing and yellowish. That is probably because of soil compaction from farm machinery (compaction). I can remember walking alot of parks in VA and they were oak forests. There were alot of oak seedlings under the mature oaks, but they were suppressed because of low light conditions. Some areas the Rhodadendron had taken over to. Up in the Blue Ridge there were some red spruce growing in the understory in small patches. They are shade tolerant and will even respond when the overstory is harvested after being suppressed for years. Up here, if you remove a hardwood overstory the exposed balsam fir and white spruce turn nice and red.    Shell shock I guess  :D :D

[Tom]

Hasenpheffer !!, Donk.  That's the answer. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Tom:

I never did figure out where ya was canoe'n in your picture. Where you escaping from hurricane Ivan that day? ;)

[Tom]

Nah!  It was before the hurricanes.  I was paddlin' in the creek out back lookin' for 'Skeeters for supper. Had my shotgun with me but you can't see it. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Well, I did here them skeeters give them there grits some taste when going down. :D :D


Wow   must be pretty big skeeters in the south.  

[Woodhog]

With a small piece of land it is very hard to figure out what to
cut...

The tree you mentioned (the one with the hole), a cavity tree,
I dont cut any of these down on my woodlot...unless they ae a safety hazard around the landing etc..

These are used by nesting birds such as wood peckers etc. and in some areas the birds are hard done by to find good cavity trees to nest in...

For such a small area of land I would try to make it sort of park like.. even some of the dead falls should be left to rot up on the ground.

It all depends on what your goals are for the land.

It is easy to mow this stuff down,  more difficult to plan things
with some goal in mind...

After a day in my woodlot my neck is usually sore from looking up so much trying to decide which trees should be
cut and which should be left.

You can fall  em in less than a minute, but it wont grow back in your lifetime if you make a mistake and take out the wrong trees...

Gee am I starting to "hug" in my old age???