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A little off?

Started by brendonv, September 03, 2014, 10:01:16 PM

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brendonv

So my brother found a guy selling 10 cord loads for $160 per cord.

First thing i thought was what kind of truck is hauling ten cordS?  Sounded fishy to me. Guy came today and he sent him home with his load. This dude thought this was 10 cord. From my math and past sales of firewood I've sold. I use 190 cu ft for loose thrown and log length and it always comes out perfect for my customers.

We figured this crook had about five cord on there. Its sad that some people probably fall for it. He claims he has 900 cord at his yard. Hahahhaha

"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

beenthere

It would be around 2 ton per cord, so he is thinking he has 20 ton on that truck. ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

brendonv

Ya imagine that. Dude tells my bro to do the math. No math tells us thats ten cord. I wish i was there.
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

thecfarm

He needs to be reported!!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

JJ

I buy a lot of processed firewood, and a truck that size would max at 3 cord (filled and mounded).
Here is picture of 3 cord truck (stuck on my lawn):

        JJ



 

beenthere

Being stuck on a customers lawn has to be a real downside to delivering firewood.

So the previous "truck" brendonv mentioned may have been closer to 10 face cord, than 10 full cord. No surprise that the rulemakers  invoke the consumer protection commerce laws about what a cord of wood must be when sold.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

doctorb

I once had a great firewood guy.   Very sorry he retired.

I used to purchase 5 cord loads that were delivered by a truck about that size.  The difference?  He had some pre-fab palettes with sidewalls that were 3' X 4' X 5.5' that bolted side by side into his flat bed.  He could put two side by side across and 5 of these pairings front to back.  The 18" wood was stacked into each palette, so the volume of wood was confirmed and visible.  My biggest regret was that all that stacked wood would get dumped by my barn and have to be restacked (by me).  He did mention that he stayed off the main roads as his truck was overweight with a full 5 cord load.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

leonz

Quote from: brendonv on September 03, 2014, 10:01:16 PM
So my brother found a guy selling 10 cord loads for $160 per cord.

First thing i thought was what kind of truck is hauling ten cordS?  Sounded fishy to me. Guy came today and he sent him home with his load. This dude thought this was 10 cord. From my math and past sales of firewood I've sold. I use 190 cu ft for loose thrown and log length and it always comes out perfect for my customers.

We figured this crook had about five cord on there. Its sad that some people probably fall for it. He claims he has 900 cord at his yard. Hahahhaha





He might have 5 cords on there if it was cut to 12 inch lengths.


A local sells 2.5 and 5 thrown cord loads off a processor using a
10 wheeler with a soft coal truck dump body. That was definetely
NOT ten full cords of wood.

I suppose the guy only wanted cash too??

This is the major reason why I have always been in favor of selling
wood by weight only which is legal.

I am not trying to start an argument.   

Dave Shepard

I don't think that first truck could get five cord on there if you stacked it tight. ::) I'd make a call to weights and measures. Too many people are going to get ripped off, and for most, money is pretty tight for heating expenses already. It takes a big load to get ten cord on a tri-axle log truck, just for comparison, and it doesn't loose 60% of it's volume in processing.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

terry f

   I've seen confusion on here with cord and face cord. I think Beenthere is right, if a face cord is about 1\3 cord, that looks about right.

Dave Shepard

Face cord isn't used in my area, I don't know about near Brendon. If he wanted $160 cord, then he was probably talking about full cords. If he wanted $160 a face, then he is an even bigger crook.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

brendonv

Ya he was thinking full cords. Never heard face cord around here.

"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

terry f

   This is the only place I've heard of face cord, but it seems popular on here. If I used the term face cord to anyone I talk to in person, they would have no clue what I was talking about.

thecfarm

Same here, terry. I never heard of it before.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al_Smith

A face cord is basically 1/3 of a cord.

My bud the tree trimmer has an old Chevy grain truck with a 12 foot bed .Stacked level it will haul around 3 full cord .

By comparrison a standard full sized pick up truck with an 8 foot bed is good for about 1/2 cord and a Ranger size about 1/3 of a cord--face cord .

Ten cords however would be between 36,000 and 40,000 pounds way over loading a single axle truck.

NWP

Quote from: leonz on September 04, 2014, 10:09:57 AM


This is the major reason why I have always been in favor of selling
wood by weight only which is legal.

I am not trying to start an argument.   

I'm not arguing, but how do you account for different species and moisture content?  I wasn't aware of it being legal to sell by weight. Where are you located?
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

LittleJohn

10 cords, is about equal to a fully loaded semi (more or less) ...so that little truck shown in the first picture is not 10 cords.

Thank god I only buy in log lengths, from a logger I know (did daycare for his kids when they were younger)

leonz

Why would you have to account for different
specie and weight if you know its hardwood and
prove it to the consumer and have scale tickets
for tare and gross weight of the vehicle in question?

The issue is more whether the wood is green
or seasoned for some length of time.

The greener the more weight of course but as
long as you can sell by the ton with scales tickets
there is no question or dishonesty.

The local fellow buys cull logs for $33 per ton and
has a certified scale.

There is nothing to say a portable scale cannot be used
as long as its certified and inspected.     

beenthere

QuoteA face cord is basically 1/3 of a cord.

Only if the wood in the "face" cord is "basically" 16"  ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dave Shepard

I always liked the idea of selling firewood by weight. As long as it was seasoned, you would have a good idea of the btu's you were getting that way. I think the only way you can sell in MA is by the cord, or portion thereof.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

red oaks lumber

sadly most people buying firewood cut/split/delivered are getting the short end of stick(no pun intended) :) around here alot of the confusion comes from full cord or face cord. buyer beware
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

beenthere

QuoteI always liked the idea of selling firewood by weight. As long as it was seasoned, you would have a good idea of the btu's you were getting that way.

And if it wasn't seasoned, you'd get a great price for water. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

brendonv

Anyone know who i would contact to report thus guy?  The more i think about it the more it bothers me.
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

NWP

Should be able to contact your state dept of weights and measures.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

NWP

Quote from: leonz on September 05, 2014, 09:14:26 AM
Why would you have to account for different
specie and weight if you know its hardwood and
prove it to the consumer and have scale tickets
for tare and gross weight of the vehicle in question?

The issue is more whether the wood is green
or seasoned for some length of time.

The greener the more weight of course but as
long as you can sell by the ton with scales tickets
there is no question or dishonesty.



http://forestry.usu.edu/htm/forest-products/wood-heating

As the chart shows, there are large differences in weights of some species. If I sell by the cord, whether I cut ash or white oak it takes the same amount of logs to make that cord. If I sold by weight, I would have to process more volume of ash than white oak to make a ton of processed wood.

There is no perfect system. People will always cheat customers on firewood. Would there be a sliding price scale based upon moisture content?  Someone also could weigh their loaded weight with concrete blocks in the truck then toss them out prior to delivery thereby increasing the "firewood" weight.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Bandmill Bandit

there is a formula to calc the price of all fuel products to BTU content. I will see is I can find it. It uses Natural Gas and Stove oil as its base value. Then you adjust it for the region you would be selling in if I remember right. Don't if I will find it but I will try. Been a few years since I saw last it.

If you sell to BTU value per REAL cord(4X4X8 PROPERLY stacked) the moisture doesn't matter BUT I wouldn't sell green wood for the same price as dry stove ready wood my self. That is not being fair to the buyer IMO.
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Compensation

I would have made him stack it then demand 10 cords or he can reload his truck. If I ever had a customer tell me I was cheating him I would stack it and the deal was if I am right he pays $10 per rick extra for stacking fee. I always threw in one extra layer over 4' for that reason so they either feel they got a deal or found out I was more honest then the thought.

Face cord is a rick. Rick is 16"x4'x8' cord is 4'x4'x8' I once had a guy ask for 2'x4'x8'. He said he wanted 20 cords. So he got 40 stacks of his 2' then complained about the size of the cord not being 6'x4'x8. Needless to say, he was turned down the next time he asked. Especially for 120 per cord delivered.
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SwampDonkey

I've heard of face cords, but it's not a unit of sale here for firewood. The Canadian federal regulation says cords (or fraction of a cord), stacked m3 or cubic feet.

But, recently they are recommending not using cord at all because of all the confusion created.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm03963.html

And if you read that link, it leads one to believe they are clamping down on bulk processors as they recommend the load be stacked on the truck so it can be measured.

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clww

Quote from: brendonv on September 05, 2014, 01:44:05 PM
Anyone know who i would contact to report thus guy?  The more i think about it the more it bothers me.
Is he a business, or just a guy that sells firewood? If a business, I'd be contacting the local/county to see if he is licensed, and make a complaint to that agency either way. Next, I would make a complaint to the BBB. How did your brother find this person?
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doctorb

Swamp-

We have that confusion in Ontario when we buy firewood for the cabin.  They charge a fair amount for what is a face cord, not a full cord.  So, for the price of about $100, you get a face cord delivered.  Yet, when you order it, you're ordering a "cord".  But the folk around there use the term cord as if it's a face cord.  Buyer beware .  I don't think these locals are cheaters, not one bit.  It's just ingrained into the language and thus, confusing.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

32vld

Quote from: Dave Shepard on September 05, 2014, 11:21:41 AM
I always liked the idea of selling firewood by weight. As long as it was seasoned, you would have a good idea of the btu's you were getting that way. I think the only way you can sell in MA is by the cord, or portion thereof.

Even then you still can not sell by weight. There is seasoned and then their is seasoned. Moisture content will vary. Three vendors sell it at different moisture levels. 15%, 20%, 25% will have three different sized piles of wood to deliver.

Then there is a local guy claiming on local Craigslist selling fire wood with a photo of them using a moisture meter that reads 10%.

Problem is he is sticking the meter probes into the end of the log where the wood is drier giving a false lower reading. Instead of splitting one of his seasoned logs and taking a reading from the middle of the newly exposed faces.

Then the people that think their large unsplit rounds is season wood.

stumpjumper83

And this is why when I deliver wood, its neatly stacked in my dumptruck.  No mistakes on the measure and if you want you can measure it before I dump it.  But the cash is in the hand before the bed goes up. 

Volume wise I can get 2 full cord stacked into my ford 800.  To those that complain that stacking takes too much time.... I run a good sized processor.  It doesn't take any longer to stack the wood as it does to just run it in and with stacking someone is physically looking at / touching every piece, even if only for a split second.  Also the stackers runs a little quality control making sure nothing too big, or rotted makes the delivery. 

Give me good logs and ill put 3 full cord an hour stacked into a truck with just 2 guys.

terry f

  Stumpjumper83, I would buy wood from you. If the guy in the original pic has $1600 in firewood, I'm going into the firewood business, bad back and all. As far as face cord, could I order mine in 48" length.

stumpjumper83

Quote from: terry f on September 06, 2014, 01:51:37 PM
  Stumpjumper83, I would buy wood from you. If the guy in the original pic has $1600 in firewood, I'm going into the firewood business, bad back and all. As far as face cord, could I order mine in 48" length.

And I sell a lot of firewood, processed and sold 2 dump truck loads this morning actually. Almost got stuck in a yard that was "hard", you know the usual.  If you absolutely positively had to have 4' firewood I could set some stuff up to make it, but I doubt you would like the price.  As it is I make 18" up and rack it up for pickup sales, and deliver anything between 12 & 24", and yes there is an extra charge for wood shorter than 18.  I don't charge extra for 24" wood, because its actually easier for me to do than 18, and its harder for everyone else to split and handle.

bill m

Quote from: Dave Shepard on September 05, 2014, 11:21:41 AM
I think the only way you can sell in MA is by the cord, or portion thereof.
In Ma. firewood must be sold by the cubic feet or cubic meters. Ma. general laws part 1, title XV, chapter 94, section 298
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Dave Shepard

So I could sell a pickup load as 96 ft3, as opposed to 3/4 cord?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bill m

Yes, you could. As long as that is what it measures after it is stacked.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

stratton

Brendon,
How are you.I know for a fact a call to weights and measures will solve this problem.
I have been selling 200-300 crds a year for 25 yrs .The best method for me is 180 cu/ft loose.Just thought i would chime in seeing that im your neighbor down in straford.Good luck.Luke

brendonv

Hi luke nice to meet you.

This guy drove from stamford to monroe with that load.  Them back to stamford also with the load.  :D
"Trees live a secret life only revealed to those that climb them"

www.VorioTree.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vorio-Tree-Experts-LLC/598083593556636

stratton

Brendon,
If our friends here had any idea how bad traffic is on I 95, then they would realize how crooked this (Admin language edit) really is. Thats at least a hrs drive...

r.man

Whether you are talking full cords or face cords depends partly on who you are talking to around here. Producers talk full for production, loads of logs etc. Users very often talk face cords. The main problem is conversion for odd lengths and price for said lengths. Some people want 12 inch, 14 inch or long cords and there is confusion about how much wood is there. Personally I always include the length if I am talking face cord just to be clear. So there are four 12 inch face cords in a full cord. Don't know about 14 and don't care. The confusion also leads to bad feelings sometimes about price but the main cost is the cutting, splitting and handling so I don't think a 12 inch face should be any less cost than a 16 inch face. On the other hand you will get a break if you want 24 inch or just blocks, no splitting. As long as everyone is up front about lengths, volume and price there should be no problems or hard feelings. I like the idea of piling the wood to prove volume and then having to remove it if it is short or getting paid a premium if it is proper or above stated volume.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

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