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Titebond I vs II

Started by Brad_bb, February 28, 2018, 07:41:00 AM

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Brad_bb

So I'm having a local woodworker build some Q sawn oak doors with jambs for me.  I don't have time and he has a lot of experience with doors. Anyway, I asked him what glue he'd use for the glue up of the styles and rails.  He said you NEED to use Titebond I.  He had some glueups years ago with Titebond II and said when it gets warm, there was some movement.  He talked with other peers who had seen some of this.  So after a bunch of back and forth he said Titebond admitted to him that yes it will soften and can move.  III is way worse and not recommended at all.  Titebond I though, will not move even with heat.  How does it get heat?  Like a front door facing south getting sun.  I've used a lot of Titebond II, most notably on my timberframe sawhorse backs.  I used it because they would be outside alot and could get wet and II has some water resistance. For inside stuff though, furniture projects etc, I'll use Titebond I from now on.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

69bronco

Are they exterior doors? If so an interior glue would be my last choice.

Kbeitz

Another thing to log into my memory... Thanks..
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kenfrommaine

I have used titebond II for years, for cabinet doors and interior doors, counter tops etc. and I can say I have never had one joint fail due to the glue. I build maybe a dozen sets of kitchen cabinets, vanities, islands etc a year. Wonder if its a regional thing with humidity or heat? 

btulloh

Ditto kenfrommaine.  No issues with Titebond II.  All PVA glues can creep, but door stile/rail connections not particularly susceptible.  Heat is the enemy of all glues, but it depends on how much heat.  Titebond III excellent as well for weather situations.  TB I has a little longer working time, but not waterproof.  

If you're really worried about creep and/or weather you can use Resorcinol glue, but it's harder to work with.  Titebond III is pretty good stuff for most situations though.
HM126

justallan1

Not knowing a thing about this, I have to ask just how hot does it need to get to make glue fail?
I'd agree with the thought of it being humidity and also weather changes as much as anything else.

btulloh

It depends on the glue.  All the of the PVA glues are fine at normal temperatures when used as they were intended.  That info is published by the manufacturers, but they are good for any reasonable temperature where glued up wood joints on furniture would be found.  If you put a chair in kiln you could expect some issues though.  The higher the temperature, the more creep you can get in normal use.  Heating a joint is a good way to get it apart when you need to.  With PVA glues it takes a lot of heat.  Hide glue requires much less heat to get apart.

One of the important qualities of PVA glue is the slight plasticity it retains when cured.  Seasonal wood movement can wreck a glue joint over time, so a little give is a good thing. It can't overcome the movement in a wide cross-grain joint for too long though.  Long-grain joints with today's PVA glues hold up well. 
HM126

21incher

I have been using Titebond III for several years now due to it being rated  for FDA food grade usage. I know they state that it is not for structural use and over 150 deg F the strength starts to drop off. I would not use it for any kind of constant exterior exposure though. I have placed hot pots on cutting boards glued with it and never had a problem.  :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Don P

I tested 5 or 6 different pva's for a furniture plant in the early 80's. Titebond 1 was one of them. I did several thousand samples both long and cross grain, shear and tension, various open and closed times, various pressures (when I walked the floor and checked presses on various components they were originally running a range from 30 to almost 300 psi, we worked on that!) and we built a 150 degree hot box, our semi trailer simulator. All the pva's softened to some degree and strengths dropped at that heat, a couple got scratched off the list there. The heat of sanding is a good telltale there, does it get rubbery or maintain a good bit of rigidity. A good bit of that is the fillers. Titebond did well, we did have a couple of small companies that tested better. The top overall tested sample, we ordered several totes from and it was a dismal failure on the floor... so much for all that testing . We ended up with the second choice and it performed well for the rest of my time there. I generally use titebond 2 but for a larger run of interior work I'll get 1. My feeling is that it's usually a tradeoff, when they enhance one property another suffers so I don't buy waterproof when I need interior. I'd say by far the biggest factor is joint prep.

low_48

He's wrong, Titebond I will also creep with heat. I was taught to never use it for veneering on a table top because of that. Pour a wide bead out on a piece of waxed glass. Pop it off when dry and put it under a heating pad. It will come out like a wet noodle. I went to West System Epoxy a long time ago for exterior doors. 

Brad_bb

I think a lot of hobby woodworkers don't really know the difference in some glues (including me).  This was an interesting bit of information for me.  I'd been using Titebond II for most of my projects, but with this information now, if I'm doing a furniture or indoor project, I'm going to switch to Titebond I.  For an exterior door, I'd have to consider the options and get more input.  My Q sawn doors are interior.  I happened to ask him about what he uses for the glue ups which prompted the discussion.  My using Titebond II regularly, his explanation was beneficial.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ljohnsaw

Well, I just figured II was a replacement for I and III a replacement for II.  Shows what I know/knew!  I had a gallon of I for a long time.  I also picked up several quarts of I that were on clearance.  Finally finished them up and bought a gallon of II.  I've been using it for lots of stuff with no issues but now I guess I will think about when something might be exposed to heat and what to use.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

LeeB

Would be interested to hear @tule peak timber chime in on this. 
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

petefrom bearswamp

I have used all three.
All have their specific properties.
All work well for me.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

bluthum

I've made scores of house and shop doors interior and exterior up to 6' x 12'. I started with resorcinol and switched to titebond II way long time ago. No problemas, ever with glue joints in decades of doors.

For cabinet doors and interior wood i always used tiebond I [well elmer's before titebond came along] until titebond I and II became about the same cost when I mostly switched to II just for convenience.. Still no issues to speak of. I've had a few cab door joints fail but if you do enough of anything you'll find an issue some day. 

As for Titebond III I've only used it in cutting boards mainly due to it's cost and slight finickiness. The darker color can be a plus at times. 

I don't feel compelled to change anything for the foreseeable future. Just one more opinion......

Hilltop366

Exterior doors with a glass storm door in direct sunlight can get quite hot especially if the door is dark in colour, perhaps this is where the problems or concerns come from.

Larry

Titebond says PVA glues should not be used in structural applications due to creep. I think a heavy oak exterior door, swinging to and fro, may be at least borderline structural. Not wanting to take the risk I use West Systems epoxy for exterior doors. I did break Titebond's minimum temperature rule one time and payed the price :'(....learned my lesson about rules.

Most other interior projects get Titebond I but sometimes I use III because it has a slightly longer open time. I have no use for II.

I did use III on an exterior garden gate as a test. Probably not fair as I also pinned the M&T joints. I'll report back at the end of 10 years.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Don P

I do like West, especially when restoring work that has sloppy or decaying joints. Resorcinol is used for structural work, off the top of my head it is the only structural adhesive that we can get our hands on. I've tried to find purbond polyurethane in the states but haven't found it in under tote sized containers.

Larry's comment about minimum temps brings up several failures I've had. It isn't the air temp in my shop that matters so much, especially early in the day, it is the wood temperature.

Oh, if you want to sound all edumacated, glue's are natural... hide, casein, rabbitskin, wheat, etc. Adhesives are synthetic, PVA, polyurethane, epoxy, resorcinol, etc

Larry

I've used resorcinol with good results, but its really hard to find currently, and than I wonder if it is fresh stock.



Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

DR_Buck

So getting back to Titebond I original   ....       Can it be thinned with water and still perform well?    I have over a half gallon that has about 1 inch layer of really thick stuff, then everything under it is thinner, but not thin as it should be.   I've used it on a few projects with out any issues other than it is hard to spread.     Or is it even worth messing with.?   I can buy a new gallon for about $18 on Amazon.
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

btulloh

It can be thinned a little, but the stuff you have that separated should probably be tossed.  I've seen PVA glue adhesive do that when it freezes.  Over time, and especially with fluctuating temperatures, PVA breaks down and loses some (or much) of its mojo.  Better to buy in quantities that will get used up in a reasonable time.  And don't let it freeze.

Occasionally I thin TB I to give it a little longer working time, but not in situations that require full strength.  I'm not sure if thinning a little affects the bond, but I just don't take the chance.  (Maybe Don P has some actual info on that.)  I always figure the chemists that formulate these things know a lot more than I do, so I try to follow the directions.

I like West System epoxy for certain things.  It's good to keep around.  I try to keep a good variety of adhesives (and glue) around to suit the task.  I still like use hide glue on some things, but I'm using the pre-mixed stuff now.

HM126

btulloh

Nobody's mentioned Polyurethane yet . . .
HM126

Larry


It leaves my fingers brown for a long time, I guess I'm to sloppy. It does have one redeeming feature. No water and slippery. With a tight fitting M&T joint makes it a lot easier for the tenon to slide home. No gap filling strength at all, so your joinery must be tight. Epoxy is better and doesn't leave my fingers brown, just sticky.


Than there is plastic resin glue and Better Bond both of which I use in veneer work but they can be used for other things. I buy them from Joe Woodworker and never have to worry about getting out dated glue.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

SwampDonkey

I've always used Lepages Capentry glue. I don't think it has anything over Titebond though. I've never had a joint fail with it on any of my projects. My failures have been due to designing for movement. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Don P

I'm certainly no expert, adhesives are chemistry, which I flunked miserably  ::)
My introduction into gluing on any scale was in a component shop where we were making panels for furniture. They got an rf glue machine and we were using a catalyzed urea formaldehyde. I moved away from that machine when I sensitized to formaldehyde and for a number of years later even the jobsite porta john door was propped open. They are very good interior, glass hard, no creep glues. My exposure was industrial in scale and it was hot vapor coming off the press so different than normal woodshop exposure.

I've had similar experience to Larry with polyurethane glues. I've been casually looking for a reasonably priced and available structural adhesive for experimenting with cross laminated timber, more just to play with it on small exempt buildings and maybe growing into local residential small houses at some point. It would be a good use for low grade material. Purbond, a polyurethane glue has been approved. It is a waterproof, one part, formaldehyde free, good looking structural adhesive. How it compares to off the shelf polyurethanes I don't know. I did notice the msds listed respiratory issues from the isocyanate fumes so maybe trading one chemical for another, don't know. I do see it is available in AU, NZ in small quantities off the shelf so hopefully here before too long.
https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28
There is a layman's explanation of the cure of polyurethanes here;
http://www.westernstructures.com/WS_Site/Sustainability_files/purbond_bayer_brochure.pdf

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