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Stairs

Started by Deere80, April 10, 2018, 08:32:42 AM

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Deere80

I am going to cut some Elm to replace where I have carpet on the basement stairs and was wondering how thick a guy should go?  And does anyone have any pictures of stairwells they have done and how they turned out?  What would be a good finish to put on them so you don't scratch them up so badly. 
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Weekend_Sawyer


 Are you going to remove the carpet and put the Elm down on top of the existing tread?

I told my buddy Wayne who is a carpenter,
I cut 3 stringers today. Got 2 of them right.
He said yep, that's about right.

Jon

Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

Weekend_Sawyer

Of course you are going to remove the carpet, duh.
... you are going to remove the carpet, right?
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

Deere80

Yes I will remove carpet then just fasten the elm to the existing tread.  I was thinking maybe 1 1/4" thick so after running thru the planer and drying I would end up with a 1" thick board.
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alan gage

Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't adding 1" to the existing tread make the first and last steps a considerably different height from all the ones in between? I would think either add something real thin or else replace the treads with new. 

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Deere80

Alan, yes you are right the bottom one will be taller and the top step will be shorter than the rest but didn't think one inch would be that big of a deal.
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Treehack

Couple things to consider.
1.  If you go over the existing tread, you will have an exposed edge of the original construction grade tread showing on the front.
2.  If stairs are carpeted, you will probably have construction grade risers showing as well unless you plan to cover those with elm also.
TK 1220, 100+ acres of timber, strong left arm.

Brad_bb

You're not planning to install the elm green are you?  I would not do that.  Let it dry to at least ambient (12-15%).  I'd prefer lower, but sometimes you gotta do...  I like Slippery Elm(aka Red Elm).  It dries considerably lighter than other woods.  In other words, it holds a lot of water green.

Any good urethane finish will work.  You need to be careful not to make them too slick.  Do you want a true clear like a water based urethane?  I've used Flat Zar aqua on a doug fir floor.  I like General Finishes products a lot.  Consider how slick the finish will be and imagine that you will be going down those stairs in socks.  I like a flat finish.  Flat finishes aren't totally flat.  There is some gloss to them. Consider an additive for grip, like a fine white sand.  There is some really great sand they used on a polished concrete floor we just finished.  I need to get the name of that additive.

If it's not too bad to pull up your existing treads, that is a more proper way to do it so you don't have the height issues top and bottom.  If you veneer them with say 1/2", then you're going to need to face the front edge as well and sides if they are exposed.  That could be a lot more work than just replacing the treads.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Deere80

Treehack I never thought of that the construction tread will be showing so yes I will have to remove the old stair tread.  There is also a 4' by 4' landing towards the bottom where the stairs turn and make a 90 to the basement so I will have to figure something out there because you will see the plywood or particle board is what is underneath the carpet there.

Brad I thought about that also that it might get dang slippery.  I  don't have Elm dry right now so it will have to wait until I dry some just thought about doing this because this is the second time I carpeted them stairs in 14 years of living there and sick of paying so much to do that and the carpet looks worn pretty bad already.  So then I will just have to refinish every so many years.

Would you make the stair tread one board or would you make the boards not very wide and have multiple boards to make the width of one tread? 
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alan gage

Quote from: Deere80 on April 10, 2018, 12:40:22 PM
Alan, yes you are right the bottom one will be taller and the top step will be shorter than the rest but didn't think one inch would be that big of a deal.
No personal experience but I'd think 1" would be pretty noticeable, especially if there were a lot of steps. None of us think twice about going up and down stairs but I'd guess after one or two steps your brain knows the height and anticipates it for each step. I watched a show one time and they showed camera footage from a New York subway stairway where one tread was something like 1/4" higher than all the others. Was surprising how many people tripped on it. 
Of course if you lived there it wouldn't take long before your brain anticipate those oddly spaced steps but to someone visiting it might not be so good. 
Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

RPF2509

You will notice the extra inch of tread height esp on the top step even though it does not seem like much.  Years ago I worked for a staircase builder and designed many staircases.  A rise not the same height as another (had one occasionally when working with an odd floor to floor distance and the riser height would not divide evenly)  was called a stumble step and ALLWAYs was located on the bottom riser NEVER the top.  Your body adjusts automatically to the consistent rise and one uneven one will throw off your stride.  We tried to keep any stumble step under 1/2". Find some cheapo boards or plywood to lay over the treads and test it out - then have someone else test it and see if they feel comfortable.  Try it in the dark too.  Remember stairs need to function as safety escapes so you may be navigating them under less than ideal conditions.

Don P

Ditto all of the above, all the risers and treads need to be identical in each flight of stairs otherwise it is a bad trip hazard. Your treads are probably 1 or 1-1/8" thick the material on the landing is probably 3/4" thick with a landing nosing that is 3"4 thick on the body and then full tread thickness at the nosing, a rabbet cutout on the bottomside. If they all measure correctly now, uniform, just remove and replace with identical sized material. I've made them with 1 board but it is more stable to glue up treads.

WDH

Elm is spiral grain and tends to warp and twist.  May not be the best choice for stair treads.  However, if you are making wagon wheels, then you would be in the chips.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Deere80

Don P. what are you talking about glueing up the tread?

Quote from: WDH on April 10, 2018, 08:33:54 PM
Elm is spiral grain and tends to warp and twist.  May not be the best choice for stair treads.  However, if you are making wagon wheels, then you would be in the chips.

I have had good luck with the Elm we have up here, Have really not had any warp and twist on me.  Have had some slabs and other elm drying for over a year and seems not bad.  A few pieces warped but for the most part it seems pretty good.
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Don P

Most stair treads are several boards wide, ripped and glued together to relieve stress. Take a look at the building supply. If you have good stable material one piece is fine, mine are single boards of oak. Subfloor glue between the tread and stringer helps cut down on squeeks later.

Deere80

I have some white oak I could use also but the wife likes the looks of the Elm better.  So would you guys glue it and nail it or should I use screws and glue?
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Don P

I would glue, screw and plug. You can get plug cutters for the drill press and make matching plugs. I usually make a variety of grain and color ones and then match up as I'm putting them in.

When I'm building new stairs I cut the stringers to allow for 3/4 plywood on the riser and tread. I glue and ring shank nail them on well and they are our construction rough stairs. Those stay in place permanently. When I put on the finish risers and treads I can glue and then screw most of them from underneath through the ply into the finished wood, hidden fasteners and I can use a bunch.


Deere80

Don,  where do you buy a plug cutter?  Would Menards have them? I was going to screw them from underneath like you mentioned until it was mentioned about the height difference is not a good idea for tripping hazard so I will have to fasten from the top side.  I bet it is going to be a chore to get them old stair treads off, the house was built in 2004 so they will be the compressed particle board but I am sure they will be glued down tight.
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Don P

Menards should have countersinks and matching plug cutters, you'll probably need 3/8" or 1/2", most screw heads will fit inside a 3/8 countersink hole but check with what you are using. Lee Valley tools online, or Rockler, etc will have it if Menards doesn't.

low_48

When it comes time to sell, you'll have an illegal staircase that a home inspector will catch. You can't have that 1" difference.

Brad_bb

Quote from: Deere80 on April 10, 2018, 01:56:00 PM
Would you make the stair tread one board or would you make the boards not very wide and have multiple boards to make the width of one tread?
Looks like it's been answered.  Yes you could do a single piece if you have the material and it's dried down properly and the house is conditioned so it's not going to see big humidity swings.  Yes you could do a glue up as well alternating the cup direction to help stabilize the tread.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Gary Davis

code here is no more then 1/8 diff between the tallest and the shortest  (example shortest 7 1/5 in tallest 7 5/8  ) the builders I worked for always used 2x12 doug fir 

Don P

This is more for new stairs than trying to retrofit an old set, but you can shim and plane to tune up a old set as well.

In the IRC it is 3/8" max difference in riser height or tread depth per flight. Section 311.7.5.1 here;
https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IRC2018/chapter-3-building-planning

At the landing, if there is one, that resets for the next flight. That is about how our cadence works, once we are in motion keep it the same. The max rise and run varies a fair amount by state, that is simply the latest model code, each state makes their own changes when they adopt.

One rule of thumb, so not code, that relates to our cadence is that 2 risers plus one tread should equal 25" for a "perfect" stair.

One contractor said stairs and roofs is where you separate the carpenters from the laborers, he was not wrong.

One thing to remember, or the way to think when you are building stairs is they are the emergency exit. On a bad night in the dark two big guys in full gear are going to be running down them carrying someone in a very big hurry. Make them uniform, to size, strong, block the ends of the framing so it cannot become a flue and protect the underside with sheetrock even if you panel over it.

Weekend_Sawyer

Have you pulled up the carpet yet?
You may be surprized what is under there. May only need some sanding and refinishing.
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

chet

Quote from: Don P on April 13, 2018, 10:19:38 PMOne thing to remember, or the way to think when you are building stairs is they are the emergency exit. On a bad night in the dark two big guys in full gear are going to be running down them carrying someone in a very big hurry. Make them uniform, to size, strong, block the ends of the framing so it cannot become a flue and protect the underside with sheetrock even if you panel over it.


Personally with over thirty years in da fire service riser spacing hasn't been an issue. That's not to say it could be. In my experience it's been folks treating staircases as the perfect shelf system, and piling any number of things on them.  :(  
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

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