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Pennsylvania Newbie

Started by GrampawGriz, September 29, 2018, 07:44:32 PM

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GrampawGriz

Howdy, folks. I recently joined up after having heard about this forum on the Out of the Woods channel on YouTube. I stumbled across the channel by chance, but I've been watching everything I can on sawmilling ever since. I believe I could make a living as a Sawyer, but I have a LOT of questions - and probably close to two years - before I can get started.

I'm in western PA (Butler) with my Wife and five year old Grandson. We're on just under three acres, mostly wooded and almost all of it rocky hillside. But, we do have a nicely situated "level" area that I think would be well suited for an entry level mill (something on the order of a Wood Mizer LT-15). 

I'm here to learn as much as I can from those with both sawmilling and business experience - especially the things I need to consider, and preparations I need to work on, before I actually jump into this.

Your advice and wisdom are deeply appreciated, and if this post would be more appropriate elsewhere in the forum feel free to move it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Griz



SawyerTed

Welcome Griz!  This forum is the place to ask questions so jump in and ask.  The members here freely share their knowledge and experience.  I'm still pretty "green."

It can be done.  I'm seven months in on my business.  Mine is a "retirement" job.  There's enough sawing to be done in my area to keep me busy 40+ hours a week.  Most of it is framing lumber for barns, fencing, trailer decking, and board and batten siding. I'd like to saw more high value stuff but I don't have a kiln yet.  That's the first key to increasing my sawing and sales of higher value woods.

Sawing is one thing, secondary processing (kiln drying, planing, molding) is where there is increasing return BUT that requires the investment in more machinery.  

Don't under estimate the needed investment in log retrieving and handling machinery - truck, trailer, tractor, skid steer.  Heavier duty is better.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

garyfg


GrampawGriz

Thanks for the welcome and advice, guys. Very much appreciated.

I've thought about making a video of the area where I'd be setting up the mill and maybe posting it here. Is that possible? Or permissible?

Thinking maybe it would give folks a better idea of the potential site.

Thanks,

Griz

SawyerTed

A video has to be uploaded to YouTube then a link posted here.  It is permissible.  We like videos and photos! :)
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

samandothers

Welcome! As SawyerTed stated there is a lot o knowledge here that can help answer questions.  Have fun with your planning.

PAmizerman

Hi Griz

Im not too far from you. The big question is how much do you want/need to make a year? It is a very cutthroat market in these parts. To be able to make a living at it in these parts I've found that the only way is to buy logs in by the triaxle load and lots of them. You will have to cycle through a pile of lumber in a year to make a decent living.
Lots more to talk about but don't have time right now. I'll have to check back in
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

PAmizerman

Couple a questions to get started 

Who/what is you're intended market?
Individuals? wholesale?

Hardwood? softwood? pallet stock? ties?
What do you want to saw?
Location. How big is the flat spot you have? How is access for getting trucks and trailers in and out. Not just pick up trucks. Talking log trucks triaxle and tractor trailers. 
Do you have any equipment now?
Chainsaw? Heavy equipment? Mechanics tools?
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 26hp cat diesel
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

GrampawGriz

(I had three full paragraphs written, and hit the back button...so here's a more brief, condensed version...)

I'm wanting to focus on furniture grade stuff, although I'm open to milling whatever for whomever. Limiting myself to some kind of niche area when starting out isn't a good idea, to me, but that's where I'd want to guide the business, if possible. As far as truck access to our current location, that's probably a no go - too small of a driveway, with entirely too much traffic. That's why it occurred to me to try and find someone wanting property cleared and possibly using that property as a semi permanent site, or as a staging area from which to transport logs. 

Equipment plans are to, God-willing, get a tractor/end loader this coming spring, as well as a good chainsaw (Stihl), and perhaps a suitable used trailer. Otherwise we're probably in pretty good shape. 

This whole thing is still in the idea stage at this point, but you're giving me a lot to consider that I hadn't thought of before.

Thanks,

Griz


SawyerTed

Don't get overwhelmed.  It will take some time to learn the basics of sawing lumber and slabs.  So after you get your mill, you will need to have some practice logs around. Don't put a walnut log on the mill first thing. 

During that learning time you will begin to get an idea of the equipment you will need. 

I'm still learning and building up my rolling stock.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

caveman

GrampawGriz, welcome to the FF.  There are a lot of people on here who know the ins and outs of producing lumber.  Many have described a mill as just on tool in the process.  Some of them even make a lot of money doing so (I am not one of them). 

It is a slippery slope.  If you are not careful, you will be building drying sheds, building solar kilns, buying a kiln that gets hot enough, long enough to sterilize lumber, buying big planers and jointers, increasing truck and trailer capacity, acquiring more adequate support equipment, canthooks, and eventually you will probably decide that a diesel powered, hydraulic mill is more productive and easier on the body than a manual model.

Others, like Magicman and Nomad, fit better into the category of Mercenary Sawyer.  They just saws em and leaves em.  This business plan is not as slippery of a slope.  Good luck.
Caveman

Southside

Welcome to the Forum, this is the place to explore what it is you are trying to pursue.  Your idea of pursuing furniture grade lumber is a good idea, but you need to have a plan for what to do with all the lumber that does not make grade.  Even the best logs have a tie or pallet stock in them as that portion of the log is not suitable for high end material.  You might not need a kiln, if you can find someone to dry your lumber for you, but selling small quantities of green, high grade, lumber will be a challenge.  The retail customer wants something that is ready for them to work with today, they don't want to buy lumber and have to sit on it to dry and possibly move so they expect you to remove that risk by selling them dry stock.  

The good thing is this is a business that you can grow and adapt into - assuming you don't need the income / positive cash flow - right off.  

Look around at what the other mills in the area are doing - then find a way to do something completely different, become the guy that does things nobody else will do and the customers will find you.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Ron Wenrich

I've been around several operations in PA, some successful, some not.  First thing to do is to decide your market.  Retail or commercial.  Retail often means you have to have something in stock for a today delivery time.  Commercial markets are usually a lower price, but the lumber generally is green, and markets will take a large volume of lumber.  I've dealt mainly in these markets.  For one thing, you don't have much lumber that you cut on speculation and hope to find a buyer later on.  You will need some of these commercial buyers for ties or pallet stock, unless you're going to get into secondary processing.  

After you get your markets in order, you're going to have to figure out where you're getting your logs.  That means you'll have to either buy logs or buy standing timber.  If you're not familiar with logging, log and timber values, or have the equipment, then let someone else do the logging.  Its just one less headache you'll have.  But, you should be familiar with different grades of logs.  The worse the grade, the lower the value of lumber on the other end.  You don't want to pay too much for logs.  You might want to look at other mills' log prices.  I've seen a lot of mills go under due to finding affordable logs.

You'll also have to decide what you're going to do with the waste. The commercial mills sell sawdust, chips and bark, which adds to their bottom line.  

You'll also have to put pencil to paper to figure if you're going to make any money.  Profit = Lumber Value (includes waste products) - Log costs (adjusted for overrun) - Operating Costs.  Operating costs = fixed costs + variable costs.  Fixed costs are anything that costs you even if you aren't making lumber.  Those things are like insurance, taxes, and equipment costs.  Operating costs are repairs, fuel, and the like.  I always liked to figure things out on a per thousand board foot basis (Mbf).  So, you should know how long it takes to make a Mbf.  

You will need to get these things together to figure out how much you need to produce to make a living at it.  

Another option is to go portable and offer custom sawing on the job site.  Lots of options there and the up side is that you don't need to buy logs or sell lumber.  You don't have to worry about waste products.   You are offering a service.  You just need to know how much to charge for the service.  Capital input is lower. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GrampawGriz

Well, I've definitely come to the right place. Y'all are full of valuable information, and I appreciate your advice. I'll be sure to take notes for future reference.

One thing I've learned, is that I probably want to go portable. Although it's more capital up front, I believe the flexibility afforded will make up the difference. I'm also looking into building a solar kiln, for my own use, if nothing else.

Anyway, gotta run. Thanks again, guys.

Griz

Magicman

Quote from: GrampawGriz on October 03, 2018, 09:05:21 AMOne thing I've learned, is that I probably want to go portable. Although it's more capital up front
Yes more capital investment in the sawmill but not necessarily in support equipment.  I am 99% portable and have zero support equipment; no tractor, loader, anything.  I furnish no help so my board foot/hourly rate is only based upon travel/setup, the sawmill, and me.  

That being said, I would have hated to show up on yesterday's job without a "big boy" sawmill.  Full and strong hydraulics is absolutely necessary when tackling some of the big/long logs that you will encounter.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

GrampawGriz

Thanks, Magicman. I'm thinking about the LT35 Hydraulic, especially if I could find a more affordable used one (not likely, I'm sure). I didn't think about not needing support equipment with a portable operation, but it does make sense. It looks like the considerations are beginning to be resolved.

Thanks again.

Griz

SawyerTed

Griz, I have the LT35 Hydraulic.  I'm running a near 100% portable sawing business part time.  I do saw here on occasion mostly personal but I have had customers bring logs here.

The LT35 will saw up 32" diameter logs.  That's the max distance from the bed rails to the blade with the head all the way up.  I have whittled down 36" logs by slabbing off the sides.  I don't recommend it unless it is a high value log and worth the time.  Mine was a clear 9' red oak to be quarter sawn.  The lumber was worth the time.  The max width of board is 26".

The hydraulics have handled 30" diameter by 14' white oak logs ok.  The saw is fast enough to saw as fast an off bearer can work in pine sawing framing lumber.  Neither the hydraulics or sawing speed are what an LT40 Super Hydraulic will do.  The LT40 Super Hydraulic is definitely faster.  It is definitely more expensive.  If money were no object I'd have an LT 40Super Hydraulic or larger.

IF I were trying to make a living instead of supplementing my retirement income (and staying busy), I'd have an LT 40 Super Hydraulic at minimum.  

Given my 7 months or so at the business, my best day sawing was this morning.  We sawed for 3.5 hours and averaged just above 200 board feet an hour.  That's with me and a very good off bearer (tailgunner).  We quit to rest before getting up hay.  I'll be going back later this afternoon when it isn't so hot.  

There's enough sawing business in my area to keep me busy full time if I wanted it that way.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

GrampawGriz

Ted,

Thanks for the input. All things considered, I'm starting to believe more firmly that the LT35 Hydraulic is the way I want to go at this point. Considering that a portable operation doesn't require the usual support equipment, maybe we'll get into a mill even earlier than we'd originally thought. 

With that in mind, I suppose now is the time to get my intended work truck finished and ready for spring sawing. I'm looking forward to it.

☺

Southside

The 35 will take you a long way. They are very user friendly and economical to own and run. If tyo decide to upgrade some day it will hold a lot of its value. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Lko67

I've had my Lt15 for about 3 months and can say if you sawed every day it will be hard on you. It is fun just manual labor.

SawyerTed

BTW, get the debarker!  It WILL save money in the long run. You will get more board feet of lumber per blade sharpening using the debarker.  Even if you purchase used, add the debarker if it isn't there.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Southside

The 35 will take you a long way. They are very user friendly and economical to own and run. If tyo decide to upgrade some day it will hold a lot of its value. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

tylerltr450

Going portable is also a tough market to get into. Lots of people call bend your ear for 20 mins then never call back, its good to have some sort of mobile calendar to keep track of calls and dates to be milling. Also if your going to be cutting portable figure out your charge methods, hourly vs BDFT, setup fee and mileage. There are a lot of guys in the PA portable milling scene like myself and its a cut throat environment. I have had people flag my ads on craigslist all the time, which I know its some other sawyer. Thankfully now I only do business that is word of mouth since I am now established enough.

Also take a hard look into support equipment to move logs I have gone to countless job sites where people don't have logs easily accessible and takes twice as long to get the job done. If you are going solo I would suggest in unique ways to move logs around without killing yourself.

Also I suggest you practice on your own logs first before going to a customer and not quite knowing how everything works. 
Timber Harvester 36HTD25 fully loaded
2006 Dodge 2500 first Auto to NV5600 swap, EFI Live Tune by me
John Deere Tractor
Massey Ferguson 711B SkidSteer

GrampawGriz

At the present moment, this is where things stand for me:

- Continue to learn what I can here, on the forum, by asking even more questions.

- Learn everything I can from every resource I can, about the forestry/logging/milling industries,and about business and marketing, both in general and as pertain to these industries specifically.

- Start preparations for (God-willing) getting to work next spring, so that by mid-March I'm ready to hook up to the LT35 Hydraulic and head to my first milling job...at age 52...

Thanks again to everyone for your input and advice so far. I'm eager to learn as much as I can.

I spent several hours today researching and downloading PDFs related to this industry from the Penn State Extension site, Wood Mizer's Learning site (planning on getting their DVD set ASAP), and several other sites. Study begins tomorrow.

Have a good one, and God bless.

Griz

PS - Time to get into shape!

Magicman

A website detailing your services is an absolute necessity. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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