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RRQS Test Logs

Started by DWyatt, January 14, 2019, 09:51:04 PM

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DWyatt

I think Dad and I are ready to try out some RRQS with my mill on a beautiful Sycamore tree in his woods but we are trying to play it smart this time. I need your opinion on a type of tree that could be sourced from NW Ohio that we could practice with. While I know we could pick anything of reasonable size from his woods, I would like to have something that we can see if we are "hitting the mark" or not. I would prefer for our first test to not be on this beautiful Sycamore or a big white oak!

Southside

I did some gum as an experiment a coupe weeks back to see if I could dry it and keep it flat.  It sure makes for some pretty wood when QS and you would not have much into the log.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   How about poplar (Tulip poplar that is)? They are plentiful here and you are not that far away so I assume they would be pretty common there and not too pricey to experiment on. And I hear they look good quarter sawed. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DWyatt

Any thoughts on Beech? We have never cut it but we have LOTS of it. We also have a lot of red maple and dead Ash trees, and white oak that may be too big to saw even if they are quartered before quartersawn:D

Southside

I have never QS Beech, but have sawn some, it is beautiful.  If you have plenty there is no reason not to use it.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

69bronco

QS beech can be beautiful!

WDH

The trees with the best, most prominent ray fleck are beech, sycamore, the red oaks, and the white oaks.  I would opt for red oak so that you can chase the ray fleck. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

Red oak logs are pretty low value right now, logs are cheap compared to white oak, and still shows fleck well.

I also prefer the older logs, ones that have pronounced end checking, as these end checks show the lines you want to hit.

I have been trying to develop a more simplified approach, one I use for marginal logs, that uses a minimum of rotations.  This approach only uses three rotations, and the positioning of the half log is based on using the 8 facets of the gun barreled log for setting the bed reference.   This is very fast and works great.  I was doing a big white oak log yesterday and the results were fantastic.  Using more rotations can yield slightly better results, but for most average logs this 3 rotation technique will still yield spectacular results and can almost be done blind and is very fast.  If the log is gun barrleld correctly, this technique is very effective

The steps are pretty straightforward to insure success, although you can make adjustments later.

1.  Set the axis parallel to the sawmill bed and gun barrell the log, making 8 facets.  This can be tedious, but is the first step in any QS process.  When the log is done, it should just be small enough diameter to just fit between your blades guides, typically 25 inches or so.

2.  Split the log in half, depending on its size, just above the pith, dropping through the pith on each successive cut.  I like to take three maybe four boards here.  Stop when you loose the fleck.
Use the 2 plane clamp to flip the flip the top half of the log onto the mill loader arms before taking off pith boards.

3.  For simplicity, since there are six full facets on each half log, set the half log so that he first full facet sits flat on the bed rails, the long flat side leaning out toward the loader arm.

4.  Drop down to take a 3 inch cut and slice a wedge off.  The cut side should just have some beginnings of ray fleck.  Drop down and take another cut, the fleck should get better, then drop down again and takes another.  Most likely on this drop the rays in the end of the log will be aligned with the cut and you should have intense fleck.  The widest boards should haver the most fleck.  The key is that you should start a little above where the rays are horizontal, drop a couple boards as the rays get perfectly horizontal and aligned with the band, then downhill as you loose the fleck.

5.  Keep taking boards until the fleck thins and then stops, and rotate the the piece so that the next facet is on the bed, and what used to be the long edge is now vertical.  Start slicing again.  Little wedge on top, just beginning to see fleck, drop down for successive wider cuts, and more and better fleck.  Then keep going until it diminishes.

6.  You should now be left with a pie slice, and rotate it so the widest point, with the longest rays are parallel to the mill bed.  Start slicing a wedge again, and when you get to the thickest part of the wedge where the band is parallel to the cracks, you will get the best figure.  Typically, when I hit max fleck I will flip this side down to the bed, as its getting a little hard to hold, and start from the top of the wedge, knowing that as I get closer to the bed, the figure will get better.

I'm QSawing some more logs today and tomorrow, I'll try to take some pics.
     
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Southside

Pictures would be much appreciated!!!  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

terrifictimbersllc

Could you post a drawing which shows the facets you've mentioned?

A log with facets every 22.5 degrees has 16 facets, a half log 8 facets.  The facets in a log with 6 facets are 60 degrees apart.   I'm sure you're right and more sure I'm wrong and it's not comfortable.  
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Southside

Yea - what he said - also your method is discriminating against those of us who no longer have a two plane clamp.   ;D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

terrifictimbersllc

A log with 16 facets is facetious.  Except to the customer watching at hourly rate. :-\

I need a lathe-mizer to set this up.   ::)
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

GAB

Quote from: Southside logger on January 15, 2019, 10:36:06 AM
Pictures would be much appreciated!!!  
I agree that pictures would be nice, however if at all possible could you make a video.
Don,t worry about your accent if I run it a half dozen times I think I'll get it.
TIA
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

DWyatt

After reading it a couple, three times, I think I understand what you mean but pictures would make it a lot more clear!

Hopefully this weekend we will get the rest of the maple cut up and go grab a couple Beech logs to test on. Maybe I'll talk dad into cutting inside the barn because I think it's supposed to be real nasty this weekend! ::)

YellowHammer

Oops, yes, typing too early this this morning, I missed my angles and dangles...  Good catch, sorry.  I am still reeling from the Alabama game so my brain isn't working correctly.  Roll Tide.  I edited my first post to remove the errors.

Its 3 rotations on 6 faces for the half log.  Here is what the half log should look like with the three or so pith center boards taken off.  The true pith is gone because it would have been contained in the pith boards, but I labeled it in position as the virtual pith because that is where the rays would end up if the boards hadn't been removed.  I hope this makes sense, its easy in practice, confusing on paper.  The horizontal lines labeled 1,2,3,4 are the sawing lines for the boards.  The number or depth of the cuts would be determined by the size of the half log and when the fleck starts to fade out.  Remember, its only necessary to get good fleck on one side of the boards, so get as many boards as you can while still in the fleck.

I'll add the pics and stuff to the RRQS topic.







YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

Quote from: YellowHammer on January 15, 2019, 07:14:33 PM
 I am still reeling from the Alabama game so my brain isn't working correctly. 
That horseshoe got snatched out of ...........well, it got snatched out. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

terrifictimbersllc

Remind me what happened to reverse rolling.  Isn't this normal (forward) rolling?
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

YellowHammer

Reverse rolling allows a more control for when taking more rotations and cuts and is easier done using the hydraulic two plane clamps of a WM, or better yet, a chain turner. Reverse rolling also allows larger log halves, especially if the logs are too wide for the sawmill guides to cut the pith boards.  For really big log halves, or to maximize fleck, such as ones split with a chainsaw, reverse rolling still works best.

However, with so many people trying to use a manual mill, or non WM hydraulics, as I mentioned in the original RRQS post several months ago, I've tried to get the hang of doing things as if I had a manual mill or reduced hydraulics, trying to simplify things.  Actually, even with forward rolling, it can only be done on one side of the log half, as the other side will have to be reverse rolled, unless the second log half is flipped over with a cant hook.  The advantage of using this simplified technique with manual mills is that with the faces cleanly on the mill deck the log halves want to stay put, and not require the strength of the hydraulics to keep the log half suspended.    

I've been doing it so often, I've gotten the hang of doing it either way, and maybe its time to change the name from the RRQS to the ARQS (Ambidextrious Roll Quartersawing Technique). :D
Which direction the log is rolled isn't the key, its how the log is lined up to get the fleck.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Clark

Quote from: DWyatt on January 14, 2019, 09:51:04 PM
I need your opinion on a type of tree that could be sourced from NW Ohio that we could practice with.

Since you want to hit the quarter-sawn fleck on sycamore which as I understand it, has a very narrow window for hitting it correctly, you should practice on a species hat has a similar narrow window. Beech is pretty unforgiving in this regard and like sycamore anything but a perfectly quarter-sawn face won't reveal the fleck. Oaks are good but they show fleck on faces that are up to 20ยบ "off quarter". Sycamore and beech won't give you that much lenience. 

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

kelLOGg

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on January 15, 2019, 10:55:44 AM
A log with 16 facets is facetious.  Except to the customer watching at hourly rate. :-\

I need a lathe-mizer to set this up.   ::)
I agree. I did 12 facets on a 32" dia sycamore to try to save as much wood as I could. I don't think it was worth the effort - my mill is a manual one.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

YellowHammer

I would start with an easy, forgiving log, such as red oak so you can get the feel of it.  

16 facets?  Thats a lot.  With this technique, there are lots of variations.  I hate gun barreling, its a common practice for any QS technique, and it takes more time than RRQS.

So I have tried lots of things to get around this, i.e. gun barreling.  Some may be pretty extreme, but actually work well, once you get the feel for hunting the fleck.  On a good straight log, I won't even gunbarrell, won't even take the bark off.  I'll go right to leveling the pith and splitting the log and taking the pith boards.  Or maybe since I already have the log's pith level, I'll make the top flitch cut, then split the log.  So I'll have two reference faces on that half log that quick.  Then I'll take the mostly "bark on" half log, set it up in the clamps at the starting angle, and level its pith to the bed irrgeardelss of the taper of the log.  This is where Hydros are great, toeboards and clamps holding the bark half log in the correct position.  Then I start taking QS boards off.  They will generally have some taper and some bark, but who cares, that's why I have an edger.  Just skip the whole gun barreling and get right to the sawing.  Remember, from looking at the drawings, quite a few cuts will (can) be going through the just cut faces, so its pretty easy, once a few cuts are made, to mostly avoid the bark faces.

Once I've got a good face or two, I stop using the tape measure and switch to using the drag back finger to set the log or cant level to the bed.  I just drag the tips of the fingers down the top surface, adjusting the toebaords as the mill head travels, leveling it in one forward/reverse cycle of the head.  This is where anywhere hydraulics save th day.    

Or if I'm not really interested in yield, just want some wide high fleck easy QS wood mixed with my flatsawn, then I will just rectangle up a cant, taking off the flatsawn side wood, just like conventional sawing technique, especially if Bibbying down big logs because Bibbying with an aligned pith is gunbarreling. ;D   Once I can get the blade guides on either side of the cant, I'll split it and take a couple, three from the center, then RRQS the rectangular half all the way down, using the corners as the bed references.  I was doing this in front of a customer last week and he couldn't even figure out was was happening, except that the flat sawn wood coming off the mill switched to QS wood coming off the mill.  He was pretty impressed, said he'd never seen that before.  We estimated we yielded 25% flatsawn from mostly the flitches, then about 75% QSawn.

If I get a really lopsided, pith not centered log, then I will side wood saw the flitches off to get a lop sided cant then flat saw the thin side down and through saw the pith last.  Then I am left with a rectangular half log and just get to RRQS it.  

So when is the best time to stay with the gun barreling? When I have an absolutely beautiful log and want 100% qsawn wood.  Or when I have an extremely tapered butt swelled log and I need to take the swell off, so I gun barrell "Bibbying with precision" at the same time.  Gun barrelling is mainly for debarking and setting the outside edges as reference edges to make sure all cuts are parallel to the pith.  However, if the pith can be set independently from using the reference edges, then there is no reason to gun barrel except as a failsafe and to remove bark.

Once you get the hang of it, its just too easy to take advantage of QSawing  opportunities provided, instead of setting out to 100% QS every log.  As mentioned on the original topic, its a lot like free style sawing, and if I'm sawing up a whack of logs, a few will be all QS, a few will be all flat sawn, and a few will be some fraction flatsawn and QSawn.
 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

DWyatt

I may have to read that one a couple time to fully grasp what you are saying smiley_dizzy

Thank you for the in depth explanation! Since we switched from Dad's fully manual mill to my hydraulic Woodmizer it seems our opportunities and capabilities have expanded greatly! Now we just need it to stop snowing and being so darn cold so we can put these options into practice. I am sure that will most of the techniques you have described it is easier to just do it than to understand how it is explained :)

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