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Diesel made from water! Yes, really!!

Started by fishpharmer, April 27, 2015, 01:34:53 PM

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fishpharmer

This technology can be a game changer on a global scale.   What do you folks think?   

http://www.gizmag.com/audi-creates-e-diesel-from-co2/37130/

Thanks Jeff for moving this.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Jeff

I'm going to move it to alternative methods board and ask people respect the rules of that board.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ianab

They aren't breaking any laws of physics because they are adding energy to the process. Effectively reversing the combustion process to get the CO2 and H20 back into hydrocarbons and oxygen. Basically the same way as a tree uses sunlight to turn the same chemicals into Cellulose, which can then used as a fuel.

Question is where you are going to get that energy from?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

4x4American

Hamsters in a wheel would proberly be the most ecnomical..
Boy, back in my day..

fishpharmer

The costly input is electricity.  Use nuclear generated electricity and it may be "sustainable?"
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

submarinesailor

Why can't they use the CO2 for the big power plants?  Let the companies that want to burn coal burn it, but require them to capture the CO2.  Could be a win for both of them.

fishpharmer

Bruce, they probably can and will, if it ever reaches that scale.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

OneWithWood

The possibility of this becoming a main stream fuel may very well cause the oil refiners to be a bit more realistic with the price of diesel.  As long as there is a premium to pay for the blue fuel it will be at a disadvantage.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

maple flats

Back in the early 90's I was paying $.999/gal for highway diesel when gas was $1.399. Now gas locally is $3.729 and diesel is $4.259. If back then diesel was 76.9% of the price of gas, why is it now 114.2% of the price of gas?
We need some new competition in the fuels market. Yes, I realize it is better than last year at this time, but it is still too high.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

submarinesailor

Maple,

Back when I was working at the Defense Energy Support Center, we supply almost all of the diesel fuel to the military, I asked that same question.  The people who purchase million gallons of fuel at a time told me the biggest reason for the big jump in fuel price was because of the 500 to 15 PPM mandate put out by the EPA.  I was told it caused a $1.00 to $1.50 increase per gallon.  Again, this is what I was told by the people who contract and purchase fuel by the millions and millions of gallons.

Bruce

mad murdock

Quote from: submarinesailor on May 31, 2015, 08:08:49 PM
Maple,

Back when I was working at the Defense Energy Support Center, we supply almost all of the diesel fuel to the military, I asked that same question.  The people who purchase million gallons of fuel at a time told me the biggest reason for the big jump in fuel price was because of the 500 to 15 PPM mandate put out by the EPA.  I was told it caused a $1.00 to $1.50 increase per gallon.  Again, this is what I was told by the people who contract and purchase fuel by the millions and millions of gallons.

Brucer
That is correct Submarinesailor, the re-processing required to get low sulphur diesel is costly, the Federal mandates on a lot of things are the primary reason for cost increases on daily type commodities over the last umpteen years.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mometal77

A company in california was making diesel out of algae.  Murdock i will take the special sauce on my hamburger. :D
Too many Assholes... not enough bullets..."I might have become a millionaire, but I chose to become a tramp!

beenthere

Here is an update on the algae for fuel status...  consumes a lot of energy to just collect the algae, according to the article. Hopes but no success - yet.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/statoil/2015/02/27/is-algae-the-next-sustainable-biofuel/
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mometal77

Thanks for the info.

Here is some also good info i have seen for a while and downloaded these videos on U tube.

Nuclear Salt Reactor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDytUCRtTA

Top secret water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhogR7YLps
Too many Assholes... not enough bullets..."I might have become a millionaire, but I chose to become a tramp!

Randy88

With time everything changes, as long as someone is thinking outside the box and looking for answers/solutions/options is the main thing.   How profitable things are will determine if they last or not or if they were successful.     

valley ranch

Rudolf Diesel developed and engine that would run on Vegetable Oil and would eliminate the need for petrol fuel. On his way to the United States to demonstrate his new engine he disappeared.

What would happen to anyone who could make a fuel cheaply enough to compete with Oil?

Jeff

People make vegetable diesel everyday. Bio-diesel  nothing much special about the engines. I've always thought it better to burn fossil fuel then your food.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Brucer

Years ago a guy in England used to go around to restaurants and take away their used cooking oil (so they wouldn't have to pay to dispose of it). It turned out he was filtering it and using it for fuel. So no fossil fuels used and no food consumed ;D.

There was a post script to the story. The revenue people got wind of it and realized he wasn't paying any road tax on the fuel. But they couldn't figure out who he was and they couldn't find him. So the revenue cops parked outside a village where he was known to collect oil. They knew they'd found him when a car drove by smelling like french fries.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Okrafarmer

Yes, Brucer, I believe similar instances have occurred here in the US as well. One instance I heard or read about had a fellow who put a sticker on his car saying something like "this car runs on earth-friendly recycled vegetable oil" and the revenue cops caught him and fined him. Ticks me off.  >:(
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ianab

To be fair, tax is usually added to fuel to help maintain the roads. If you are running on an alternative fuel, then you get to use the roads for free. Here in NZ diesel isn't taxed (as much) at the pump, because a lot is used off road, or by heavy vehicles that are taxed on mileage. So if you run a car or light truck you have to pay "road used charges" based on the kms you drive.  So if you drive with vege oil or something, you still need to pay the RUC.

Electric cars are going to be an issue if they become more popular. At the moment most places let them slip through the cracks, because they want to encourage their uptake. But if a significant number of vehicles were electric, not paying road taxes, then who's paying for the roads? There are already issues with cars becoming more economical, so less fuel is bought, and less tax collected.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

fishpharmer

Brucer, obviously most people do not eat used vegetable oil.  Yet, the vegetable oil comes from plants such as soybeans and corn that people and other animals eat.  I am sure there are exceptions, some oil producing plants may not be readily used for foodstuffs. 

On the other hand, ethanol used in gasoline is a similar use of "food" for fuel.  In my opinion and limited knowledge, fuel ethanol is much like a subsidy for corn farmers, albeit indirect.  One good thing about ethanol production is that the byproduct can be fed to livestock as "distiller's grain."   I don't know for certain but it seems like vegetable oil manufacture would result in a similar by product feedstuff for livestock. 
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Jeff

fishpharmer explains my thoughts on the vegetable oil.

Its sorta like the people that think they are saving trees by planting fields of hemp for replacement fiber. That hemp field is the ultimate deforestation.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

OneWithWood

Bio diesel made from used vegetable oil does not increase fuel made from food one iota (unless you include the wvo not going into pet food as a flavor agent) or reduce the food supply.  The seed stock is grown expressly for creating the cooking oil.  It is then used for the intended purpose to cook food.  Instead of the waste oil going to a an outfit that resells it to the pet food industry it gets used in place of fossil fuel.  I believe more trees are cleared in the pursuit of fossil fuel than cleared to plant oil seed.  Remember the fields growing rape, soy, sunflower, safflower and corn were cleared a long time ago. 

Many states expressly exclude a certain amount of non fossil based fuels from taxation.  In the USA there is still a need to pay the federal tax for fuels used on road. 
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Gary_C

Quote from: fishpharmer on December 12, 2015, 09:06:41 AM

On the other hand, ethanol used in gasoline is a similar use of "food" for fuel.  In my opinion and limited knowledge, fuel ethanol is much like a subsidy for corn farmers, albeit indirect. 

The same argument can be made by the original user for the alternative use for any raw material. Just because the original use was food should not disqualify any alternative use unless there is a shortage of food. Anyone not getting enough food?

Should the original user of timber, presumably logs or timber for home production protest the sawing of logs for structural components like studs because it is a subsidy for the timber producer because it may result in someone not having shelter? Or perhaps the original use was for firewood. The possibilities for protest are endless.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

beenthere

The scuttlebutt now that corn prices have fallen back to the $3 per bushel level, the talk is to kick the ethanol % from 10 up to 15 to increase ethanol production and also corn demand.. pushing corn prices back up (which is a temporary fix until supply and demand stabilizes again).

Interesting that the farmers planting and harvesting corn don't burn ethanol in their engines, but instead burn diesel.

With 10% ethanol, we get poorer fuel mileage by 10%. So the same gallons of gas are burned for the miles driven... with or without the added ethanol. No gas supply savings there.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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