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Diesel or Water for lube????

Started by FiremanEd, September 22, 2004, 07:47:27 PM

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FiremanEd

I'm sure this has been hashed out here before but I haven't found a lot on it searching back.

Short version of long story. LT-300, started out running Diesel w/ 1 gallon of bar lube / 55 gal. drum. Had the lube mizer set on the 2nd of about 15 in frequency of spray. Everything ran great, cut great, cut straight.

Switched to water w/ soap at suggestion of WM. Feed rate dropped, blade would get so hot in a 10' load that the water was steaming when it hit the blade in the 1st 5'. This was with the lube mizer set at 14 of 15, the 15th is continous spray. Blades dulled quicker and ran louder.
 
Switched back to diesel as soon as I got the drum empty of water. Blade quietened, feed rate increased, blades ran longer.

WM lists enviroment and rubber wheel belts as their two main objections to using diesel. Neither are a problem, I'm indoors and have solid steel wheels. Question is, are there some drawbacks to diesel that I don't see?

What are you're preferences? Water? Windshield washer? Diesel? If water what do you add? I was putting 5oz of dawn / gallon. Haven't done the math but off my head I don't think that would be much cheaper than diesel when you consider that I used 55 gallons of water in 1.5 days where 55 gallons of diesel laster 7 days.  

I don't see any benifit of water other than the diesel odor, which I can put up with for greatly increased feed rates and blade life. I'd love to hear all of your experience/opinion?

Thanks, Ed
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Tom

I use water and have no complaints.  I don't like the idea of oil on the wood or on the saw site.  a stationary site could accumulate a lot of oil over the years.

While I don't have a saw that is the "man" that your LT300 is,  I've found that difficult cutting and feed rates usually meant that the blade wasn't sharp.  I put a sharp blade on when I notice heating or gumming problems.

I don't even use soap unless the pine is really gummy.  Water is cheap. :)

Kansas

Im not aware of any reason for using a fluid on the blade other than to eliminate pitch buildup. We used to use diesel  for everything, and eventually quit as diesel prices got higher. Its also not user friendly for the offbearers, and customers dont like the smell. Some species are way worse than others for pitch buildup. Usually, water keeps the pitch off, with some species needing little to none, and some needing a heavy amount. We dont cut much pine, but do keep a bottle of pinesol handy. Diesel is the best choice in extremely cold weather, as we have had times where wiper fluid freezes on the blade. It also seems like frozen logs can lead to more pitch buildup. One other problem we have noticed causing buildup is not enough set on the blade. We have to run heavy set when cutting cottonwood or run into problems with it. If you run water, and theres no pitch buildup,  and the blade doesnt cut right, I would guess its a blade problem, not a lubrication problem.

FiremanEd

Tom, I see everything you're saying. I really want to use water but have to find an answer to the problems.

We've used water on the Timber havester for years w/ no complaint.

The changes in feed rate, hot blades started immediatly after switching to water. The blades were brand new WM double hard 10degree and were consistant on 5 or so consecutive blades. When I switched back the problems stopped immediately. We were cutting semi dry white oak in each situation, still working on last years hurricane and tornado damage.

I would prefer to use water, it's MUCH cheaper and there is a yard hydrant 5' from the lube tank. I just can't find anything else to contribute the changes on.

As for the accumulation, it's on cement, only use ~8 gallons a day and with the sawdust and daily cleaning it shouldn't be too big of a problem.

Please point out any other thoughts. Thanks for the time and thoughts.
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Tom

The bottom line is that "you havta do what you havta do". :D

There is a resaw operation in a mill here in Jacksonvill that uses Canola oil on a 10 inch  bandsaw blade.  He claims that is economical, bio-degradable and it works.  He buys it in 55 gallon drums.  You might try it..

He cuts old, reclaimed heart pine and that stuff is tough and full of resin too.

FiremanEd

Might have to look into that canola oil. I haven't had a resin problem w/ the dry white oak. Just heat. Which leads to slower feed rates and wavy cuts. Causing more wear issues on the ceramic guide pads.

thanks for the thoughts.
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

iain

have you got er set on "cruise" for the water?
whats the saw dust compaction on the boards like?
if you got the same amount of dust with both lubes then compaction is your problem but the diesel is allowing the band to slip through
what set you running you may need to change it to stop so much dust spilling out of the gullet
 and play with the feed speed as you wont be able to go as fast with water


    iain

Norm

See if anyone carrys the bio-diesel made with soybean oil in your area. When I cut white oak I have to slow the feed rate down and the water on the blade up. I use about twice as much soap to water ratio as your using. I for one can't stand the smell of diesel fumes but hey if it works that much better and your not letting it soak into the ground the only concern would be the offbearers that have to have skin and fume contact with it.

Percy

The diesel/bar oil combo is the best lube I have ever used. I used it for 6 years with the old lt40. The WM lube container would last for about 40 hours of running time before needing a refill.You couldnt tell I was using it. The mill stayed clean.The amount used was so small, you could hardly smell it. For the last year and a half ,Ive been using water(Dawn and pinesol included) on the LT70. It works but you have to use so much, the mill is always a mess, the guides make noise and when it rains, the mill floor is so slippery from the soap scum. I think after a year and a half, Im gonna switch back to the deisel/bar oil as this soap cant be doing the environment any good either.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

MrMoo

Ed,
Just a thought but you may want to check to see if your blade wasn't slipping on the band wheels. My mill has steel wheels too & the manufacterer told me to never use a lubricant like soap becuase it'll cause the blade to slip on the wheels.
He remommended a mix of water & anitfreeze and so far it has worked well for me. Only time I saw some problem was when milling ash.
Mike

woodmills1

I use diesel/bar oil to cut pitch and squirt it from a can.  I wouldnt use  it if it was 8 gallons a day, for me it is more like a pint.  I think you have something else going on.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Kirk_Allen

Ed,
I currently use water with PineSol.  It seems to do much better than the lube WM sold me.  Haven't tried the deisal/bar oil mix though.

As far as white oak goes, I can get through it better with the 9 degree blade than the 10 degree.  Not a big difference for my little lt40 but you might see a BIG difference on that monster your running.

By the way,  talked to George the other day.  He should be hitting you up for some wood ;D  He had nothing but good to say about you!  I guess this site attracts the right kind of people!

Kirk

jpad_mi

Norm F, you mentioned trying Bio-Diesel; have you used it? I have wondered if it would work OK for milling. I have heard of people using fryer grease from fast food restaurants to make it, and they claim their car exhaust smells like french fries ;D  That would be strange, eh?

I also remember reading that Stihl sells a bio-degradeable bar oil. I figure that mixed with bio-diesel would more friendly to the environment.
Jeff P. in Michigan

Bibbyman

I wouldn't use diesel even if it did work much better and was free.  

Besides all the problems listed by others,  why introduce another combustible element into a process that is already prone to fire hazard?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Norm

They sell it at certain coops around here jpad_mi but none near me. I run an electric stationary mill with dirt floors so I'd worry about all of the residual stuff getting into our ground water. Besides if it smelled like french fries my stomach would be growling all the time....ummm french fries. ;D

woodchip

Pine oil and water ,no problems.Smells better than deisel anyway. :P

Brian_Rhoad

      Lenox makes a concentrate to mix with water for the blades. It's called Band Aide for Wood. I mix 1 quart to 5 gallons of water for most woods. If you have a problem with pitch buid up just add more Band Aide. It costs about $80-$90 for 5 gallons of concentrate.

FiremanEd

Thanks to everyone for your ideas and thoughts.

I've spent the last two days running with diesel at less than 5 gallons per day. This averages out to less than one gallon per 1,000 board feet. With the vacum pulling most of the saw dust away the odor isn't a big deal, you can smell it but not bad.

After a lot of investigating I'm convinced that it was/is a combination of two things. 1st is the fact that we have been cutting downed wood from last years tornado and the hurricane that followed. We took a direct hit from a pretty damaging tornado on May 9th 2003 putting down many acres of timber in the community. I just finishing them and my brother (logger) brought me the 1st load of fresh green logs I've seen in a year. Man I love green logs/lumber!!! No more stained logs. One thing I've learned for sure is that white oak heart wood gets harder than cement as it dries. 2nd, I'm convinced that diesel offers more lubricity than water, even with soap. The blade makes much more noise with water. Noise doesn't matter but what's making the noise may. I have to believe that the noise is from vibration and friction, neither of which are good for efficient cutting.

Mormoo mentioned slipping drive wheels. I'm gonna have to look into that. I think I would have noticed a difference in blade speed but a slight slippage would sure heat the blade quickly.

Iain mentioned the dust compaction. I do notice a increase in compaction in correlation to blade heating. As the blade comes through a 10' log and I begin to heat the blade the compaction increases. I have some 9 degree blades that I'm going to play with as if finish off the last few thousand feet of dry logs. I'll post if I notice a difference.

That semi load of fresh white oak logs went great. Fast feed speeds, no heating, no waving. This really solidifies the believe that part of the problem was/is the dry logs. There was a great increase in feed rates when running manual or on cruise with no associated over heating.

The fire hazard is something I pay attention to as that is my primary profession. We clean to the concrete daily and I noticed the other evening that there was no diesel on the concrete, the dust had caught/absorbed it all. With the amount of dust going through the shed a day I'm not worried about 5 gallons of diesel being spead through it. We're filling up a 5'*10' dump trailer twice a day with the mill and edger.

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts and ideas. Once I get more green logs in I'll try another tank of water. For curosities sake if no other. I'll be sure to post the findings then.

Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Furby

Just wondering what you are doing with the sawdust that has the diesel in it?

FiremanEd

Furby,

Right now the sawdust is going into our commercial broiler chicken houses as bedding. There is so little diesel in the sawdust that you don't know it's their. 2-3 gallons dispersed into roughly 150 cubic feet of dust is nothing. The dust off these bandmills is more fine than dad likes for his bedding so we're looking into getting a van trailer and shipping it out as fuel dust for a boiler. You don't get much more than the freight but it leaves the farm.

I'm also looking into some other secondary processing things to do with it. Pellets for wood stoves is one thing I want to investigate more.
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Bibbyman

Then where does the bedding go after it's been used in the chicken houses?  ::)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Percy

QuoteThen where does the bedding go after it's been used in the chicken houses?  ::)

As far as my limited reserch goes, diesel does break down in nature after a few months of being exposed to natural bacteria(s) as does crude oil. I wouldnt want to mess up the environment with anything. This incudes soap. Has anyone done a study on the effects of soaps in the environment?? It seems to linger at my mill site more than the diesel did.

I guess a guy could just use water.......
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

sparks

Other than all the others concerns you've already been given, my concern is the pf and up/down motors and cables and the proxys and thier cables that run in the cat track. They are not rated for petroleum. You may create soft cable issue. The proxy cables are not that expensive but the motor cables are a different story. Get two of those high volts leads rubbing together inside the cable and the potential for damage to the inverter drives or other components are great. As already said, you do what you have to do. An additive to the water would be my suggestion.   Thanks all.  Be careful out there.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Kirk_Allen

Percy,
as far as the soap goes there have been studies done and unless your draining into a waste water purifying system they recommend using PHOSPHATE free soap.

Its not to common in the stores around here but give your local Quixtar/Amway distribtutor a call and they do sell PHOSPHATE free soaps.

Its the Phosphates that cause a problem by killing microbes.  Thus it doesnt break down like phosphate free soap.

Kirk

Furby

Percy,
I've read that before about crude oil breaking down, but see pictures of the Exxon Valdez disaster. Today you can STILL turn over rocks and find crude oil deposits.
Don't know if I really buy the break down part, myself.  :-/

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