iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Saw value compared to orange book???

Started by Beaudeane, December 20, 2012, 10:32:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Beaudeane

Ok folks, in this economy, how close is orange book value on a used saw gonna be in reality to what u have to give for a saw? I found a 6 year old saw with the extras I think I'd want on a saw. Asking price is bout $1600 above orange book. I guess the owner may look at it like it ain't eating nothing if it don't sell but I'm looking at it like it's a 6 year old machine that's used.... Similar to how I would look at a 6 yr old pick up truck with low miles... I'd think 1/2 to 2/3 new price of what it was new would be close starting place but I just don't know.... Any input is appreciated.... Saw is a 40super diesel power
Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament"

Magicman

I would not sell my '98 WM SH for what I paid for it in 2002.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Beaudeane

But u are making $$ & enjoying what u do with yours MM. A 6 yr old saw with very little time on the meter sorta says the owner ain't doing either with it, don't it?
Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament"

drobertson

I might get in trouble again relying on my memory, but there is a thread somewhere on the forum discussing this very topic.  It seems like it is 1% a year every year from the original new price?  Please don't ask me to explain it, ok,  I'll try, new price take off 1%, now take that value and take another 1%, and so on, If I am wrong please forgive me.  And just to add, many folks buy mills not considering all the tangibles, and other folks buy them for a purpose, finish the need and just sell them.  One that has been taken care of is worth its weight.  David :christmas:
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

But after a period of time, it sorta levels out like a JD tractor.  My old JD is worth what my Dad paid for it new in 1970.  Well, probably not quite, but you get my drift.

Also, much depends upon it's service and upkeep record.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

dgdrls

For some reason (with a certain amount of merit) current used Orange saw prices seem 
very high IMHO.  I see 10 to 15 year old mills priced with-in a couple, few thousand dollars of new.
I have not seen the Orange Book values so I cannot speak to them however,
quality tools hold their value fairly well,
Does that translate to a 6 year old sawmill being worth 94% of its original cost?
No, not for me, especially in this economy.  If I can't do better than that I'll buy new.

DGDrls





rooster 58

I looked at mills for quite some time, and was discouraged at the high asking prices. I was told by the wm folks that mills depreciated like cars and that hrs. did'nt mean so much. Earlier this year I ran across two 70's that I thought were awesomely priced, a 10 and a 11 models. I waited too long and they were sold  :'( I was kicking myself in the pants. Then, just as I was about to pull the trigger on a demo 40 super, I ran into an 05 lt70 with a twin blade edger. The mill has 198 hrs., the edger 70 hrs. I negotiated a deal that would allow me if I wanted, to flip these and make some really nice coin. The point is, you really have to invest time into looking, and know what your looking at. I saw what I thought was a good deal on a 50, but found out it had a smaller gas engine and was'nt really so great of a buy after all

Mooney

A couple notes: Hours are one of the biggest factors in overall Orange Book values, but also we don't actually see the mill... And everyone wanting to sell a mill says it's in "excellent shape"... :laugh:

So the Orange Book spits out a range we give the person inquiring. The guys upstairs deal with used mill sales every day, from giving sellers/buyers estimates on value, to finding out later what the selling price ended up being. So their recommendations come with a lot of experience.

If the prices seem high to buyers, sellers think we're way low  :D

Chuck White

When I bought my mill in '08, it was 13 years old and had 487 hours on it, and I got it for $15K.

Right now it has 1,978 hours on it and it's 17 years old.

According to the Orange Book, my mill is still valued at a little more than I paid for it.

I do know that I would not sell it for the 15 that I paid for it.

But, with my mill, the Wood-Mizer Orange Book is pretty close.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Beaudeane

Guess seller on average thinks his item should be worth the the high end of the spectrum unless they wanna see it move fast. & buyer always wants a deal when buying used on anything. Still I'm having problems understanding the high asking prices on used saws compared to other "equiptment" I've bought. My 7 yr old Freightliner new was $117k, today going price be bout $40k.... $36k pickup truck that's 6 years old selling now for 15-18k in "excellent" condition... A bostitch framing nail gun I got new 4 yr ago, I've saw the same nail gun on CL & in local pawn shops for 100-150 within the last few months... I bought a used ingersoll T30 air compressor with a 13 Honda , 2 years old, for 1500 back in the summer... Less than half what they sell for new... I realize made in USA & quality product count for a lot but think homes have depreciated more than some of saws I been looking at. Homes used to be the only things that appreciated in value too... Maybe I'm looking for too good of a deal cause I don't know any better. Thx for the input everybody & merry Christmas to you all
Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament"

WH_Conley

I think part of it is that you can take a mill that has a lot of hours and refurbish it as good as new for a grand or so. Barring a bad engine or frame.
Bill

Kansas

We started out with an LT30 manual. It had 15  hours on it, and we were the third owner. Didn't give new price, but not too far. Used it for several years and sold it for near what we paid for it. Put on a pile of hours too. Back before HC (housing crisis) mills  could be sold for near what you paid for them. That has changed. If I got half of what we sold it for now, that would probably be lucky. But we had moderate inflation then, which drove up the price of new mills, plus a good economy, times were good and people wanted mills. My guess is you will see deflated used mill prices for some time. And we are still in a situation where people will firesale on occasion that need the cash.

Chuck White

I think that with sawmills it's a little different!

With a mill, if you're going to saw good lumber, everything has to be set up true and square, so when you go to look at a used mill, if it's been used recently, you can to an extent, assume it's been taken care of.

It doesn't take much to be off and then you can't saw good lumber!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

sigidi

I think comparing second hand prices for trucks and cars to mills is crazy - no way you can compare a mill to a used vehicle or any other kind of 'tool'

In my opinion a mill has its own niche, they have little wear, very small amount of maintenance required compared to a truck, but have the added capacity of being able to easily out earn the truck doing a couple of days a week, where the truck needs to run day in and day out - very specific tool cant be compared to an individual tool as other tools usually need to be used in conjunction with a whole trailer load of tools ( a carpenter with only a hammer isn't worth much at all)

so yup very very different situation
Always willing to help - Allan

Beaudeane

Must be Sigidi... But I ain't seeing it yet... Or why... Sorry for my ignorance but I'm really blessed with it... Can't see that a saw is that much more specialized a tool than a class 8 truck, framing nailer, high output mobile air compressor or an f250 like I specified in earlier post,  but I'm trying to get a grip on what makes it different... Also a very "niche" market that I serve with the big truck. One of many u can use a trk for... Hazmat liquid is the one I serve at present. I do wish I could run a mill a couple days a week instead of the Freightliner several days a week but pretty sure a beginning hobby wouldn't support my 3 little ones & wife... I do know the more specialized a job the more it pays but think I must need a lot more education on the milling side I'm trying to learn about. I've only been in trucking 20 years. & had my own trucks since 1998 so don't know it all on trucking but have a good handle on how to work smarter & not harder doing it... Bad part is I think I've bout had my fill of trucking after this long but not sure I could afford to quit it... Educate me so I can please... Thx, Seth Jackson
Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament"

porcupine

If used $ is close to new....buy new and you get to break it in.

I feel better knowing a maintenance schedule is complete and I'm a little anal about it anyway.

You will do what is right for you.
Kubota M5040  2007
Kubota U35 Mini-Ex  2016
Brute Force 18-24 Firewood Processor 2022
Brute Force Grapple
Super Split HD
Logrite Cant Hook, Pickaroon
Stihl MS250, MS461, MSE 220
Lamar 16' Dump Trailer
Load Trail 20' Tilt Trailer

WoodenHead

When I was looking for a mill over a year ago I was noticing that prices for used were comparable to new, so I ended up buying new.  I have also noticed recently that the mill I purchased a little over a year ago is now being sold for almost $2000 less.  It would seem that we have some price deflation going on.   

beenthere

Beaudeane
QuoteCan't see that a saw is that much more specialized a tool than a class 8 truck, framing nailer, high output mobile air compressor or an f250 like I specified in earlier post

Hard to explain, but it is what it is. Supply and demand will interact for value to surface at a level for various products.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

learner

Beaudeane,
When dealing with high speed equipment you're dealing with much higher tolerances.  A split second while useing high speed equipment can result in broken parts, damage and even injuries.
When dealing with high speed Hydraulic equipment, the risk goes up.  My advice when looking at a used mill is to go over ALL of it.  Get familiar with it and ask to read the maintenance manuals.  Then check to see if they have kept everything tight.  Check the head to bed alignment, the roller guide tolerances, hydraulic hoses etc.  Look for excessivelly worn moving parts and check to see if everything is lubed.
After buying our LT40 we found several LITTLE things that needed to be fixed and adjusted.  We also found a couple things that left un-repaired would eventually cause serious problems.
If the seller has trully only used the mill a few times then it should be close to Factory Build Standards.  But an Excellent machine that wasn't properly maintained will surely show it.  Find out what it would cost to return the mill to Factory standards and adjust the cost to do that.  Then you will be able to tell if your getting a bargain or not.
WoodMizer LT40 Super Hydraulic, MF-300 FEL, Nissan Enduro 60 forklift, 2 Monkey Wards Power Kraft Radial arm saws, Rockwell series 22-200 planer, Prentiss 210 loader

sigidi

Quote from: Beaudeane on December 21, 2012, 06:27:52 PM
Must be Sigidi... But I ain't seeing it yet... Or why... Sorry for my ignorance but I'm really blessed with it... Can't see that a saw is that much more specialized a tool than a class 8 truck, framing nailer, high output mobile air compressor or an f250 like I specified in earlier post,  but I'm trying to get a grip on what makes it different...

Seth, the way I see it is an F250 cant produce a 'finished product'.
Regardless of how much air a compressor pushes out - it doesnt make a 'finished' product.
A framing nailer can't make the house, but a sawmill can produce every stick for that house regardless of length or sizes, without the need of any other equipment.
A class 8 truck ( not exactly sure what one is) but I figure without a crane, or a forklift to load and unload it the truck cant do a job either - but the truck has registration, tryes - probably 16+, the servicing work needed on its engine alone in a year is more than a mill would need in its lifetime...
So what I'm getting at a sawmill is very low running cost, but extremely flexible and produces a finished product, that's why I figure they keep their value so much
Always willing to help - Allan

Dudaks

I own a 2002 LT40HDG36RA that was purchased and stuck in a container for 10 years with 11 hours on it. The price of the mill seemed high at the time but when I finally got to see the mill I knew I was doing the right thing purchasing a used mill. It allowed me to get more mill for my dollar. The bells and whistles were there and the Accuset was replaced with a new Accuset 2 prior to the purchase. I would not have been able to touch a new mill with the same accessories. I searched long and hard for a good deal, and feel that it finally paid off. Cash in hand is the best way to go if you can manage it.

Fred

Beaudeane

I will keep looking for what I hope ends up being the right one for me then. The for sale part of this forum, WM site under used mills , CL & sawmill exchange is only places I know of to look so far... At there any other places I can search? Thx
Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament"

mikeb1079

hey beau there's also sawmill trader.

i think that mills hold their value simply b/c there's relatively few of them out there.  for example there's probably a thousand trucks, a hundred nail guns, and 50 compressors on my local craigslist but there isn't even one 97 or later woodmizer lt40 with all the bells and whistles. (which is what i want)  smiley_hydrogen 

from my experience more common tools will sell for about 1/2 of new but as the tools get rarer the price creeps up towards 2/3 of new or so.

good luck in your search (unless you are searching my area and in that case bad luck in your search.   :snowman: no_no :snowman: smiley_roller smiley_roller
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

Too Big To Fail

I also wonder if part of it is the hobbyist/retiree part of the market driving prices up.  Some guys just want to do a little milling for themselves, have built up the dough to invest in the best, and don't really care if there's any real return on the investment.  Like a Harley.

rmack

looking for a mill was kind of a depressing experience, finally broke down and bought a new lt40SH on sale.

Woodmizer generally won't budge an inch on price, and I found that used mill owners tend to have the same, 'take it or leave it' attitude.

It may have something to do with location as well, seeing as there are nowhere near as many used units available in western Canada.

Of course, you can bet I will remember that if I ever decide to sell. ;D
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

Thank You Sponsors!