indian board sawing

[uplander]

 Hello forum members I thought I would post about the way I have seen some indians in southern mexico saw lumber. I have in the past done some cave exploring and mapping in the southern state of chiapas mexico. I drive down there which is an adventure in itself. I have a friend that lives down there and he is the grandson of
missionaries that started A hospital there. He owns about 1000 acres of never cut
land on a mountain. Much of the timber is in mountain top "cloud forest".
It is truly spectacular country.
One day he and I and couple of local porters we had hired to carry gear were hiking up the mountain to visit a "pit" a vertical cave about 600 feet deep. We were going to rappel  into it and explore around a little bit and climb the rope out. As we were hiking through the forest on our way there I could hear what sounded like an axe swinging.
As we approached the sound I could see some of the local indians had felled a large pinetree, about 38" in diameter. They had a base section about 10' feet long cut from the tree and had already squared three sides of the cant and were working on a fourth
with an adz. I asked my friend Ruben what they were doing and he said getting ready to saw lumber. He chatted a few minuets with them in spanish and told me the tree was
a virgin cedar. I heard them say the word "cedro" It sure looked like pine to me.
Anyways off we went to do the pit cave andabout six hours later we came back and they had built a scaffold up underneath the cant and were sawing away using what looked like a homemade bow saw and blade. One man standing on the cant with one end of the saw and another man standing underneath on the other end of the saw.
It sure did look labor intensive! How they got it up on a scaffold I will never know as I did not see the materials for one when we passed by earlier.
They had chalked lines on the cant using a string and the insides of a D battery that they peeled down until the got to the carbon center. There were also several boards
about 1'x16' stacked near them. I marveled at their inginuety.
Ruben said that they are "Totzil" indians that the spanish never subjugated when they invaded mexico. They just ran away to the mountains where the terrain was to rough
to pursue them.
Anyways I hope you enjoyed reading this.
                                Uplander

[isawlogs]

Cool , Now why is there no pics of the inguinity ???

You go to a cave , rapel down 600 feet , climb back out then wealk by a manpowered sawmill and you have no pics in your post ... tell me ya have some though ...  ;)

[Dan_Shade]

that's called "pit sawing" in many parts of the world.  when things are going slow, I always remind myself that at least i'm not doing it that way!

[beenthere]

Yup, for the man underneath, its the pits. 

[uplander]

 Pit sawing Huh... The ground down there was way  to rocky to dig a pit.
Must be why they built the scaffold. I have no idea how they got that large cant up there though.

                              Uplander

[Tom]

Levitation!  The same as they built the pyramids.  It's a long lost science and you found the only two individuals left who know how to do it.  Did you get their names? :D

[Dave Shepard]

The colonists used that style of sawing when they first got here, that or riving the boards. The pit saw, which was usually set up on a variety of scaffolds or very large sawhorse type affairs, lead the way to the water powered up and down sash saw. When you see how things were done a few hundred years ago, or in your case, how they are done in less or non-industrialized countries, you begin to understand why everything was recycled. Do you have some cave pictures for us? I am too DanGed claustrophobic to do that, but I can look at pictures of it. Well, for a few minutes any way. :D


Dave

[thedeeredude]

Heres some pics of sawing styles







First is a trestle sawing operation and the last two is an up down sash mill.  On the trestle they're sawing poplar and on the sash saw they're cutting walnut.  Pit sawing is a name used interchangeably for sawing boards out of a log by hand, in the earlier times though there was trestle sawing and pit sawing.  Trestle was done on large saw horses and in pit sawing a large pit was dug in the ground with supports laid across for the log to rest on while being sawed.  The man on top was the tillerman, he steered the cut and chose where and how to cut.  The guy on the bottom was the pitman.  There was a part on sash sawmills called a pitman arm.  It was a shaft mounted on an eccentric wheel which pushed the sash frame up and down, the term coming from the job of a pitman.  Uplander, not meant to hijack your thread, just giving some info.  I would have loved to see those guys working on a log like that.  It always brings a smile to my face seeing the things that were done with simple hand tools.  A lot of people now think, how did they do that without.......you name it power tool.

[Jeff]

From my gallery

This is a photo I took at Old Mill Creek


Part of my old photo collection


A old Quaker "Framed Pit saw" that is on display in our living room

[StorminN]

Hi uplander,

Where in Chiapas was that? My Dad has relocated and lives in San Cristobal and has a gringo friend that's fluent in both Tzotzil and Tzeltal... I try to get down every Easter, but I missed it last year...

-Norm.

[uplander]

 Hello StorminN,  it was in Pueblo Nuevo Solistahuacan.
I have been to SanCristobal many times. I love it there.
Chiapas is siempre verde. It's a little hot for me in Tuxtla though,
I prefer the mountains. How do you get down there?
I have made the drive many times.

            Cheers, Uplander
   

[KGNC]

Uplander:
I was in Ocosingo a couple of years ago. and went up into the mountains from there. I saw some guys sawing out planks from a pine log. They were sawing free hand with a chainsaw. The results were much better than I would have thought. Everything else they did with a machete.

[uplander]

 Hey there KGNC. I went through Ocosingo a time or two.
The first was in 94' after the rebellion started, This was six months
or so afterward. Things were obviously a little tense there so we drove on through to
Agua azul and Palenque. I sure wish we could have stopped and seen Toninia
I have heard it is real neat.

                 Cheers, Uplander

[KGNC]

I think tensions were high for a long time in Ocosinga. I was there in 2004 and we went through a lot of check points on the way in.
Palenque was amazing, I spend half a day there and felt like I could have wandered around for at least another day.
There had been a major storm before we got to Agua azul, so it looked more like "Aqua fango" (My hillbilly Spanish)

[StorminN]

uplander,

I like it in San Cristobal and the surrounding area also. Down in the lowlands is too hot for me, too... unless I'm on the coast. I usually fly down... Seattle to LA... LA to DF... DF to Tuxtla. One time I flew DF to San Cris, but with the new highway from Tuxtla to San Cris, it's only an hour or so drive, not bad... and that way my Dad always has an excuse to come down to Tuxtla and go to Sam's Club or something when he picks me up.

I've been through a lot of the places you guys mention. I've spent time in the mountains and on both coasts, from near Puerto Arista (north Pacific coast of Chiapas) to the Caribbean coast, from Tulum all the way south to Belize... very pretty country. The ruins down there are interesting... I've never been to Tonina, but I've seen Bonampak, Yaxchilan, Palenque, Coba, Tulum, etc.

KGNC, you're right, you can spend days at Palenque. The coolest part for me is to hike up in the southern-most area, the part behind the pyramids and closest to the hills. There are many un-excavated buildings (really just mounds in the jungle) up in there and the newly-excavated ones are up in there, too.

When my Dad first moved to San Cris. (about 13 years ago now) he started a business as a tour guide... he would bring gringos on cultural tours of the different places in Chiapas... mostly the indigenous villages around San Cris... the weavers  in Zinacantan, the potters in Amantanango, the mask makers in Suchiapa, etc. I've learned a lot and seen a lot just hanging out with him.

-Norm.

[shinnlinger]

Norm,

See if you dad can add Totzil pit sawers to his attractions...We can check them out on our way to the cave.

[ErikC]

  Heres a couple more pictures of the good old days. These were taken in the mountains north of me a ways, an area called Denny. There was never a road to this area, even for wagons. They disassembled everything and used pack animals or sleds in winter when the ground was frozen. There were roads around the local mines and businesses, however. But  it was over 20 miles of rugged trail to get there. I have been in this area many times on horseback and a lot of the sites are still obvious, along with some of the equipment. I reckon no one wants to work as hard to get it out as they did to get it in.  Gold is quite a motivator I guess....

A pitsaw in action. Probably looks exacly like what started this thread


This was a timber mill in the area. Brought in by mules, all wooden parts must have been produced on site. Not sure if it was water or steam powered.



Erik