New boy!

[Butlerslogs]

Today we had a new lad join our team, it did not go well! >:( he turned up 3/4 of an hour late and didnt have a reason, ok i said to myself hes only 19 let it slide! He then spent the next hour sharpening his saws etc etc. (i dont mind we've all been there!) I explained to him what we where aiming for in the day and left him to get on with a piece of felling and logging, not overly difficult work but there where a few poplar trees in there that were ribboned as not to be felled, as you can probably guess when i return from the other side of the field he had fallen all the trees including the poplar. ANGRY couldn't explain how i felt! I asked him if hed even worked in a team before and felled trees like we did, he replied that  this was only the 3rd time hed been out felling! A quick phone call to the person who recommended him confirmed that he had very little experience but something went down at his last job that shouldn't of happened so they laid him off but written a great reference! after giveing the bloke on the phone an earfull i sent the lad home!

Too harsh or to soft ?

What do you think?

[so il logger]

It happens. But what you can't have happening is someone cutting down save trees.

Good help is nearly impossible to find at least it is around here. But at the same time can't settle for someone that can't/won't be on time.

Are you logging? I wouldn't send anyone off with a saw to fell tree's until the guy showed me that he can do the job. Much less a 19 year old, kids around here aren't much on manual labor. Where are you located?

[beenthere]

Harsh?  Not if you explained to him what you wanted, rather than assumed the lad knew it all.

Sounds like you maybe just figured he would show up, and be off and running knowing everything your crew was doing, when, and where.

But you know what took place, we don't.

I'm with so il logger. Even a seasoned employee wouldn't have a free reign, IMO.

If I hired, he'd be working by my side doing menial things first, especially if he showed up late. He may have been scared and afraid, but we don't know that.

Reminds me of one son of mine, who was hired for some college summertime help, and he was ticked off after the first day when they put him to work breaking down corrugated board boxes for the baler. Said that wasn't what the job was supposed to be. I explained to him that the company was finding out if he could handle the simple job first, and they would work up from there. Getting to work on time, and actually working all the time (not talking, wandering around, cell phone calling or texting, bathroom or drink breaks often, not seeing extra things that could be done, etc.) were some impressions that a good new employee can show the boss. Things improved for him on that job very quickly, by the way.

[Offthebeatenpath]

Being a boss is rarely easy; questioning the bosses' decisions on the other hand seems to come quite naturally for a lot of people.  I wasn't there, so I'm not going to question your decision making.  You've got to keep your crew running efficiently, safely, and without cutting the save trees. I don't doubt that sending him home was the right decision given the way that his first day played out.

Personally I feel a strong obligation to educate, train, and watch new people on the crew.  Learning completely on your own is a much slower curve with many more mistakes than compared to being mentored and guided.
Each one of those mistakes comes with a price tag that the boss pays, not the employee. I sleep a lot better at night when I am confident in the skills of an employee.  They are more likely to make you money, leave a good impression with clients, and keep the worker's comp auditors at bay...

[Butlerslogs]

im in the uk, the kid had all the relevant paperwork and a glowing reference! Thought id give hi a chance! my own fault really!

[Offthebeatenpath]

I wouldn't beat yourself up about much. It is weird that he had such good references...

[DDDfarmer]

A 19yr old that wants to do physical work? And showed up?  Just for that he might be worth training the way you want him to be.  But I wasn't there so its still your call.  Did he show any skills or ability?

[snowstorm]

A 19yr old that wants to do physical work? And showed up?  Just for that he might be worth training the way you want him to be.  But I wasn't there so its still your call.  Did he show any skills or ability?

agree. he may do a real good job with a little training.

[treefarmer87]

You made a good call. He has only felled 3 times? He could have been hurt or worse. Good help is hard to find.

[4x4American]

I don't get why he dropped the save trees...its pretty simple ain't it?  My boss in the woods told us to cut whatever trees were of decent size, don't worry about if theyre marked or not...I didn't like that.

[thecfarm]

When someone comes with references,you would think they knew what they was doing. Sometimes it's easier to teach someone that knows nothing than someone that knows a little. No bad habits to break.  And IF I was late on the first day,I would be doing some BIG explaining about why I was late and why it would not happen again.

[cbla]

out my way there are often young guys that think they know it all and get big feeling dropping trees. those guys scare me. but if he seems level headed and trainable might be worth keeping. I saw one guy show up on the job site and brag how good he was. he picked the biggest tree and totally hung it up. he was not trainable. its defiantly hit or miss, use your gut if he is worth training

[FayettesFinest]

I can't say that you necessarily made a "bad" decision. Granted, like everyone else said, I wasn't there. You're running a business. You've got money to make, you've got a deadline and you have a crew that needs to make it home. Someone that doesn't know what they're doing can make any of that go the wrong way. Now was this kid recommended as a good faller? If this was only his third time cutting trees, I think it's upon him to tell you that. I spent this passed winter cutting firewood. I think I might have run a saw 4 or 5 times prior. Even though I've picked up a lot of experience, I would never go look for a job being a cutter unless I'm being put with someone to train me. I've put some good hours in on a dozer, but I still couldn't look someone in the eye and tell them I'm a top-grade operator. I feel that it should have been on him to inform you what he's capable of. I'm not much older than him (I'll be 24 next month) and I'm still learning. I'll tell anyone that. I feel no shame in learning. But I wont trash my name or make myself feel like an idiot for trying to do something that I know that I cannot do. If you want to take a chance and trust me with something that I told you that I can't do or don't feel comfortable doing, then that's on you.

Don't beat yourself up over it. With deadlines and guidelines that you have to follow with a job this dangerous, I probably would have made the same decision.

[coxy]

is this the same reson they let him go  from the first job

[Corley5]

  I'd really rather start with a fresh slate and train someone to do the job the way I want it done than have to train out the habits I don't want that they brought with them from another employer.  I always work closely with a new guy for a few days until we're both comfortable with the job.

[Engineer]

He shows up late on day one, that's not a good sign.  Maybe sending him home for the day with a warning that if it happens again, he's done. 

Sharpening saws on day one?  Well, give him the benefit of the doubt, he's at least maintaining his saws, but that should have been done before he showed up to work.  I can understand needing a touchup throughout the day or at lunch, or swapping chains if one gets rocked etc.  I personally don't know anybody 19 years old that could be trusted to run a chain saw.  That includes my own kids. :-\

But cutting trees that were marked to be saved?  That's not acceptable.  He would be gone, as indeed you did.  However, if you did not take the time to explain to him what your ribbons or marks meant (and sometimes that is not a universal system), then it's on you for not doing so.  If you did not specifically say "don't cut anything with a {x} mark on it" then I would not blame him.  You know the guy had minimal experience (what 19-yo kid does?) so I wouldn't have counted on him to do the right thing the first time on your crew. 

If I were you I'd bring him back, work with him for a few days or a week, and the next time you let him out on his own, make sure the instructions are very specific.  You may find that after all that you have a very trainable, loyal and careful employee.

[beenthere]

Engineer
I think a lot of us were cutting trees down with a chainsaw at 19. ;)  But true, you didn't know us...

[OntarioAl]

Butlerslogs
A 19 year old with his own saws willing to become  logger. I think that there might be a silver lining here with some hands on training.
On the other hand in Ontario a proper documented job orientation is required.
In the case of a new  employee (with the necessary documentation) hired as a power saw operator it would require one on one supervision of the new employee felling timber to verify the level of competency. It maybe several hours or several days you as the employer set the standard of competency that you are willing to accept as to whether or not you are going to keep the employee.
Failure to adequately supervise and document the orientation process here in Ontario you do at your own peril.  The fines for injury to the employee usually start at $25,000 and a fatality will result in fines that would bankrupt a small company plus potential time in the "Crowbar Hotel".
Al

[Magicman]

He has only felled 3 times

At one time that statement included each of us here.  No one is born with experience, we only gain it by working.  That experience includes knowing where the work location is and being on time, having your tools/equipment in proper working order, and following instructions/orders.

[WH_Conley]

If I am bent out of shape too much because he is late I would send him home right then. Is he sharpening his saws on his time or yours? As in, is he paid by hour or production? Did anyone explain what the ribbon was for?

[Ianab]

Problem I can see is that he was hired as an experienced feller. Had the necessary tickets and a reference, but he was really a total newbie, and shouldn't have been out there working without someone looking over his shoulder, at least for the first couple of days. 

Is he worth talking on as a "Trainee"? Knowing it's going to be a few weeks before he's trained up properly, or at least well enough to be pointed at group of trees and left to it.

[so il logger]

Supervision is the key word here, 19 years old and showed up although late. Without knowing the kid it's impossible to say one way or the other. Some guy's want to learn and work in timber. I'd give him a shot, but keep him close by and show him what you want. If he don't work for you send him here I could use the help ;D

[Butlerslogs]

Well what a difference it was today! turned up 20 mins early! saws all sharpened, apologised for last week! Had him work by my side today and he has some good knowledge, just needed some guidance. If im honest it was naive of me to let him work on his own, but when you've got a time limit on a job you make stupid decisions! I sat down after the day was done with him and discussed the possibility of doing an apprenticeship at the local college and he agreed that would help him alot. Think this kid is going to be a keeper 8)

[so il logger]

Good deal  There needs to be more young guys in the woods

[Ron Scott]

Its good that he came back with a different attitude and that you are spending the necessary time with him to get him on the "right track". Hopefully he will remember this experience working for you as a positive one where he learned the needed skills for being a "good logger" who pays serious attention to save trees as designated and how his actions on the job represent you and your company to the landowner and the sales administrator for the job.

[beenthere]

That is good to hear, and makes this thread much better to read about what you are doing.

Glad you posted your experience, and the new results.

[WV Sawmiller]

Butler,

   Glad it is working out okay with your new worker. Glad you gave him another chance and a little more supervision. If the truth be known, I'd bet most of us here would admit we have made some mistake on the job we could, and may be should, have been fired for but someone gave us another chance and we learned from our mistake and did better after the experience.

[Jeff]

Turn him on to the Forestry Forum. He'll let us know how you are doing with him. ;)

[CCC4]

Personally...I dont take references with any weight. I have been disappointed too many times. I know the kid is young...but cutting a ribboned tree....omg, thats ridiculous...imagine if that was on a FS job. The hour to sharpen a saw..yeh...I say if you can't sharpen your saw in the time it takes to smoke a cig...you are taking too long and most likely not doing worth a crap.

I say all this because I am very critical of myself and what I do...I leave no slackers feeling good about themselves...probably why I am the only cutter on my crew. My boss knows I am anti-social and he doesn't want to have to deal with me leaving a slacker laid out in the woods because I finally blew up. Me personally...I don't want to ever have to pack a kid out of the woods because he screwed up and got killed falling a tree.

[lopet]

Think this kid is going to be a keeper 8)

What a change since I've read your first post.    Glad it's working out now.

[Autocar]

Proper training he may have been made a dandy employee but showing up late the first day I would of sent him home, just my two cents .

[Magicman]

As my Dad would have said; "this is more better".