WM bed design

[JVK]

I've had the new LT50 for a year and a half now. I like it a lot and learning new ways to push it harder to produce. The bed design has me a little baffled sometimes. There are 4 heavy duty bed rails in the middle 8' section of the mill frame leaving only 2 smaller swinging rails to share the rest of the 13' of log and cant support. It's not an issue cutting 16' and shorter logs but I cut 20' plus 1" and 2" material. When the two swinging rails are moved toward the ends of the cant there is 2' of unsupported wood. I get thick and thin at the ends. My previous bandmill had a welded bed rail every 4'. Good support to 31'.

With all the time saver features this mill has, cutting long logs is a bit tricky sometimes.

[Bibbyman]

 

ElectricAl added an old style short swinging bed at each end of his new LT50.

[mikeb1079]

jvk are your longer cants bowing up/down on you?

[JVK]

Cutting timbers is not a problem when not supported. A stack of 1" and 2" cutting to the deck the ends always droop down if the bed rail is 2' from the end. I'm not a big fan of these small swinging rails. As the pics shows, the mill frame has a dimple from a log or a big cant rolling around. Not sure how I'll fix that. It wouldn't take long to wipe out the small support rail Bibbyman posted. When I started using this mill I didn't pay close attention to these swing rails. I do now!

 

[Leigh Family Farm]

Have you talked to WM about a solution? They seem to be pretty ingenious people and might have an answer for you.

[scully]

I did a repair on an LT 70 that was near new and the swing suports had rounded the bed frames in like shown ,I welded 1/4 stainless plate on the suport surface for the rail leg to slide on there was plenty of adjustment for the bed rail with the added thickness . I saw the mill a couple years later and that repair looked like the day I did it ! I can't say the same for the mill it was rode hard and put away wet !

[JVK]

Dealer said to fill with weld and grind flat. Scully nailed it. Stainless slide plate is a great idea. That would spread the load on the mill frame. There is a lot of pounds per sq. in. on that swing bed bolt when a heavy log or cant is crashing around on the mill deck.

[JustinW_NZ]

I have the same problem, the rail has pushed down and now the little swing arms don't level out right.
I also like the idea of inserting a stainless slide plate.

I was going to crack out the TIG and fill with weld otherwise and grind up flat, but I haven't yet as i'm slightly worried about heating the rail and having sawdust burn in the frame, anyone had that happen?

Cheers
Justin

[isawlogs]

 Theres a healthy reply from a dealer if ever I heard one.. :   Filling with weld won't help or fix the issue, you need to put a plate there and weld it, if you fill that with weld and grind it flat it is only a matter of time before that beam cracks at the edge.... Who ever told you to weld it and gring it has little knowledge of how steel reacts.
I would sujest a 1/2'' plate if you have enough space to adjust the swing arm after it is in place.

[Bibbyman]

Pardon my question but what are you sawing or how are you using your mill to inflict this kind of damage?  Our 2002 LT40 frame is substantial the same and we use it hard but never had this kind of damage.

We ran a 1994 model LT40 with even lighter frame and swinging bed supports for over 7 years and never had this damage.

[isawlogs]

 I don't beleive its a usage issue but more a design flaw as there are three different mills on this thread alone with that same problem, I doubt that three different owners are abusing there mills....  Maybe, but unlikely.

[wwsjr]

I have never had this problem bending frame tubing on 3 mills, 02 LT40 Manual, 04 LT40 HD, and 06 LT40 Super in the past 10 years. I have loaded several 40" X 16' logs, SYP and cypress. Had to help claw turner with FEL forks. I have never had a problem with up to 20' logs "drooping" on the ends. Of course relieving stress causes cant to move if flat sawing at times. I leave the movable bed support at 90* from main rail until I saw to a cant, I then raise cant with toeboards, swing toward rail and backstops. With a 20' long 12" X 12" cant I can support up to 17', only leaves 1 1/2' on each end. Smaller cants a few more inches.

[isawlogs]

 Not the same design.  ;)

[SAWMILL BUDDY]

When I picked up my mill and Marty was going over everything, I was told to swing those arms out of the way when loading big logs. I mill logs over 40" die all the time and I don't have any damage.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Thick and thin on the ends of 20' flexible lumber (1", 2") can be a different problem than the same with stiff beams.  The alignment procedure is to adjust the bed rails to the blade which will take care of the former. Mill setup to jack the crown out of the main rail takes care of the latter. We tend to think of our mill beds as long straightedges, but they're not, unless set up to be so.  The properly aligned mill will cut boards of uniform thickness , but it takes this and a straight frame to cut uniformly thick very long beams.

[Peter Drouin]

Cutting timbers is not a problem when not supported. A stack of 1" and 2" cutting to the deck the ends always droop down if the bed rail is 2' from the end. I'm not a big fan of these small swinging rails. As the pics shows, the mill frame has a dimple from a log or a big cant rolling around. Not sure how I'll fix that. It wouldn't take long to wipe out the small support rail Bibbyman posted. When I started using this mill I didn't pay close attention to these swing rails. I do now!

 

Thats from dropping logs on the mill and not using the loader, I have had 3 WM for over 24 years and never saw that, all I can say is WOW :

[barbender]

I know that the previous owner of my mill abused it plenty, he built log houses and used the mill to flatten big logs that were longer than the bed. And yet, no dents like that. What part of the story isn't being told here?

[JustinW_NZ]

I can only speak about my mill.
The previous owner well, all I can say that's nice he picked a nice mill to buy...  :'(

I suspect he was dropping logs onto the deck hard and leaving the two swing rails out so they got hit hard and bent things.
Mine are no where near as bent as the ones in the photo first off.
I've since loaded and cut "monster logs" and not bent them any further as far as I can see, so I think careless operator/s are to blame smiley_dizzy

So I don't think if I would call it a "mill issue" as opposed to operator error or abuse?

I'm just keen to figure out the best way to tweak things back into that perfect alignment  :P

Cheers
Justin

[Brucer]

Wood-Mizer says to swing the end supports in parallel to the main frame when loading a log. Once in a long while I've forgotten -- the butt end of the log definitely tries to drive down that supporting bolt. I can see where doing this over and over will bend the tube.

I estimated that I've put about 3000 logs onto my present mill, ones long enough to sit on the end supports. There is no sign of the frame being distorted.

It's a nuisance swinging those supports out of the way each time you load a log, especially if you're working alone, but in the end it's worth it.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to swing them in and out remotely (but not with hydraulics).

[JVK]

I have no idea when that dent happened. It's in the 90 degree position and I did not know about moving them out of the way when loading logs. I've been milling lumber for over 30 years and I know a little bit about it. This new LT50 with the hyd, remote control, Accuset and such however was a new experience for me. Picture me turning a big log for the first few times. Do you think it's possible I messed up at first? Just when I thought I had it figured, I would move the lever in when I should have moved it out. What ever I was moving, would come crashing down and we get to try agian. I didn't drop a log from 30,000'. Could a flare butt or a knot at just the right place, hitting that swinging support bolt do this? Maybe this dent occured when I lowered the mill head down without swinging the debarker out of the way.

 
Look at this photo. Log is 22' and with the bed ex I can put the butt on a heavy duty bed rail. There is 9' 6" between the mill main rail and the bed ex rail. The only support in that space is a swinger rail. Take 2' off the log and no bed ex. That swing rail has a lot of work to do, don't you think?

[jcbrotz]

Seriously did you break the bolts that hold the swing arm to the main frame. If the swing arm did that then the had to have stretched pretty good, bend at the main frame or bend the pivot arm, something else had to suffer the some consiquences also for a hit or several large hits like that. Lastly is that damage only on one end or are both swings damages? I quess this ?? is for any of the 3 with this issue.

[bandmiller2]

I believe the problem is caused by large logs butt swell when loaded and turned.The swingers are not needed until you get to overhanging boards and are best left in their folded position until needed.In the years I ran the LT-70 I don't recall ever using them or needing them as the long stuff was dimention and self supporting. Frank C.

[Peter Drouin]

Ya your loading from the back side with the lull and dropping the log. next you will be hitting the back sawports and bending them, Is what I see, 30 years, good luck with the mill

[Leigh Family Farm]

So a lot of responses are "How could you do that? I've never done that on mine." and others are "You did something wrong, because the machine is great." Maybe its just me and my way of thinking, but we all should be focusing on a solution, not the problem. The rail is bent, so let's fix the rail first then worry about how it got that way.

My apologies if this comment irks you, but it irks me when only two comments give a solution to the original question. Provide a viable solution first then you can make all the comments you want about the problem.

[scully]

I have seen 100's of used and old mills go through WM ,I have been called on to do weld repairs on many ! I have only ever plate that kind of damage on 1 mill ! It was my call on how to do it and choice of material . I chose stainless for obvious reasons . The mill I did this to was abused in no small manor ! Logs were dropped hard on the deck from when it was new ! The swing supports were left out and never considered when loading ! I would not even consider filling the indent with weld ! that is not the right repair ! It comes down to one simple solution ,be careful when loading big stuff ! There is no flaw in the WM bed ,it's a portable saw mill not a stationary made out of railroad iron !

[beenthere]

Seems all the responses are getting at both the OP problem (with suggested repairs) as well as the apparent main problem of having the wing supports out when they maybe shouldn't be and the possibility of dropping big logs onto the wing supports.

I see no good reason to attempt to corrall, herd, restrict, or get "irked" over responses. The solutions will be sifted out and the cream will rise to the top.

It is the Forestry Forum way, and what makes it such a great forum.  Of course, my opinion here. ;)

[Jeff]

I see no good reason to attempt to corrall, herd, restrict, or get "irked" over responses. The solutions will be sifted out and the cream will rise to the top.

It is the Forestry Forum way, and what makes it such a great forum.  Of course, my opinion here. ;)

I absolutely agree with that.

[JVK]

To those who posted helpful comments (and there were few), thank you.

[Peter Drouin]

So a lot of responses are "How could you do that? I've never done that on mine." and others are "You did something wrong, because the machine is great." Maybe its just me and my way of thinking, but we all should be focusing on a solution, not the problem. The rail is bent, so let's fix the rail first then worry about how it got that way.

My apologies if this comment irks you, but it irks me when only two comments give a solution to the original question. Provide a viable solution first then you can make all the comments you want about the problem.

We have the solution plate steel welded to it , the rest of the posts where trying to help so after its fix it wont happing a 2ed time, and we will all be looking at our mills for the same thing, and find a better way to do things, were not wiseing off just trying to help JVK so him and his WM will last a long time

[Jeff]

And thank-you to ALL that posted for adding valuable content to the Forestry Forum that other members, guests and future members may find useful, such as folding in the supports before loading logs.

[giant splinter]

I believe that the frame structure on all the mills and particularly the larger mills from LT40 through LT70 are more than adequate for handling any large log and will not yield under normal usage, how can anyone argue (design flaw) when standard practice it not followed. I thought the customers buying new mills all went through a 6 to 8 hour training program prior to delivery, I went through this introduction when I bought mine and it was not my first sawmill and it helped a lot to get trained on a thinkerf bandmill after coming off an old brand X circular mill. I felt I needed all the information that I could get and the Oregon Wood-Mizer store was very good about training me before I picked up the mill, the staff made sure that I understood how to use the mill, how to maintain the mill and what not to do around the mill, we cut a few logs and every function was described in detail including offbearing and stickering. Sorry to hear about your experience with your new LT50 and I hope you find a way to get the frame back to specifications.

[Leigh Family Farm]

Sorry for earlier...had a bad night (pregnant French wife) and I was a bit cranky in the morning. The reading the FF is my reading-the-morning-newspaper-over-coffee ritual most people have, and it brings me great joy to share thigns on here with all of you. Again, my apologies...

[ladylake]

I'd have to ask why the swing out support , I'd make that slanted rail longer and a stationary support.   Steve

[isawlogs]

 After reading that three mills had the same issue, I would and still thinking that there is an issue with the beam that supports the swing out bunks.  The problem I see is the thickness of the beam is not adequate for what it may have to support....  So I call it the way I see it a design flaw that can be easily fixed, use a thicker walled beam to support the swing out bunks or plate them.
  I wish at times I was as fluent as some of you are to answer with big long words that the encyclopedia has the meaning of, but I am not I use the terms I know to express what I am thinking if  'design flaw'  pulls too hard on some of ya'all's britches , well i'm sorry. find me a better term to use.  :P

[Chuck White]

I'd have to ask why the swing out support , I'd make that slanted rail longer and a stationary support.   Steve

Steve; As was explained by the Wood-Mizer folks at Hannibal, NY, the swing out rails are supposed to only be used when there is a flat surface to be placed on them.

They are for supporting a cant, not a log!

[beenthere]

 ;D ;D
Marcel, yer not gonna be pullin on my britches, no way Jose. You keep your hands to yerself :D

For me, it is one of those things that could be added (thicker walled beam) but that would weigh more and cost more, so increase the sales price of the mill.
Then comes the "fix up one thing to avoid failure" that just means the "failure" will happen somewheres else.
There always will be a bigger, crooked log to drop from higher up, so trying to design for the biggest and highest likely is tough to do. ;)  (and not saying that is THE reason for the dent in the beam, as I don't know that).

My take, I suspect the design is as planned to be adequate for the job but hold down the weight and the fabrication costs. Only my opinion. 

Good explanation Chuck.

[Bibbyman]

I'd have to ask why the swing out support , I'd make that slanted rail longer and a stationary support.   Steve

One more great advantage of the Wood-Mizer design is the open corners where a person can stand close to where they can pull boards or flitches.  If you "boxed in" the corners, you'd loose that feature.

[isawlogs]

 :D :D  don't you worry none Mr. Beenthere I have no intentions on pullin' your britches in any direction,  :D 

  I know too well how to use and why those swing away bunks are to be used, and I could not agry with you more on what you saye. But I still think a plate where they ride out would be needed for some users of these mills.

I'm putting this to a rest now.

[ladylake]

Why not have a sturdy staionary bunk maybe 15" out which surly wouldn't be in the way, a lot of people like off loading off the other side on my B20 better than a WM. 

[ronwood]

I am wondering if there may have been some bad steel that has not up to spec or when the beam is made would there be a seam that could cause a weakness. The adjustment under is small and the force that it could exert on the beam could significant with that small of footprint.

When i am on site cutting I always have my customers overbearing on the loader side. Try to keep them away side where a broken blade could come through the fingers. Have not had one yet come through in 10 yrs.

Ron

[jcbrotz]

Remember boys some people can break a stainless steel ball if you let them play with it long enough. At least that's what I have been told about myself MANY times.

And for the record I do not believe 3 mills would equate to a design flaw but maybe an operator flaw.

Now for my way of fixing it. cut out the bent area weld in some reinforcements inside the tube and then weld a new plate on top and grind flat. If I were the one who bent it more than like likely I would do it again so putting say a couple 2 or 3 3inch square tubes in line with where it was bent may slow down the process as it would now have to bend the top and bottom.

I still want to know if the bolts or pivot was bent something had to give for it to bend the main tube 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch

[ladylake]

Sawmills take a beating and should be made to handle it no matter how bad. 
I'm not saying dropping a 30" log from 5' either just normal abuse.  Steve

[scully]

I love this thread ! the key here is swing outs for square cants ! Thicker wall tube steel for the 45deg swing supports would be great but if the mill is used correctly why ? I agree that stuff happens and there is always an aw crap situation . So we deal with that ! Not sure if my last response got anyones panties in a bunch sorry if it did but I am passionate about WM and the desighn ! Long before my passion for milling I was a welder and fabricator , I build race car chassis and have fixed so much heavy equip. ! This topic just struck a nerve in a good way ,I don't care what machine you use ,there is a limit !  Some just don't know how to tell ............

[Brucer]

From section 4.2 of my 2006 LT40HD manual:

"CAUTION! Be sure the log clamp, pivot rails, turning arm, and toe boards are adjusted ouit of the path of the log before loading a log on to the bed. Failure to do so may result in machine damage or cause misalignment."

Remember, a successful sawmill is an integrated design. If you try to simply "cut and paste" the design ideas from one mill onto another one, you will probably end up with something isn't satisfactory.

Swinging the pivot rails out of the way on a Wood-Mizer allows you to level a tapered log over a much shorter distance. The butt end can swing down while the top end is raised by the toeboards. That means less toeboard travel to level a given log, and therefore less time to level it.

Once you have a flat face down, the pivot rails can be swung under the log to keep it from sagging. There's little chance of damage when the weight of the log is spread out over several fixed bed rails as well.

[ladylake]

 No problem leveing the taper out of logs on my B20, takes a couple seconds. Also long logs will turn better when supported all the way as the heavy end won't be falling down in a hole.   Steve

[WoodenHead]

This has been a great thread for me.  I have to admit that I am one those people who have been using the swinging arms incorrectly.  Now I know otherwise.    

[JustinW_NZ]

This has been a great thread for me.  I have to admit that I am one those people who have been using the swinging arms incorrectly.  Now I know otherwise.   

yeah I agree

Talking to some other guys around here and they all had the same divot in the rail, but also admitted they never bother swinging them back...

Cheers
Justin

[barbender]

It's from that puny Kiwi timber ;D

[JustinW_NZ]

It's from that puny Kiwi timber ;D

:D