life expectancy of repaceable tips on chainsaw bars

[WV_hillbilly]

Just wondering how many hours you pros get out of a replaceable tip on your saws with everyday use .
Yesterday I had the sprocket lock up on a factory Husky 24 "bar that had about 100 hours of run time . It was on a 372 XP . I have never had this happen before. I was blocking clean wood that had been piled up  . I clean the oil groove out every time I change chains and give the sprocket a shot of grease everyday before starting to cut .Luckily I had bought a replacement tip at Paul Bunyon show this year .

[John Mc]

Any chance the tip got pinched some where along the way

[bill m]

I have never greased the tip on a bar and haven't replaced the tip in about 2 years.

[WV_hillbilly]

hasn't been pinched that I know of and not many plunge cuts recently .   

[Gearbox]

I do all the things you are not to do with a saw . Plunge cutting , under cutting with tip and many others . I have never replaced or blown a tip in 50 years or more of logging and firewood .  ??chain sharp all the time ,dirt . operator error ,bar oil , wrong chain or bar ?

[ehp]

most likely just a bad tip, I donot grease them either , in this sand greasing them shortens the tips life . I find the bigger the horsepower the shorter the bar tips last , 100 cc ported saws in the cold winter time you do well for a tip to last 50 hours and does not matter who makes it , I use to buy tips 10 at a time just to have lots on hand but now I'm running 70 to 80 cc ported saws and donot have much tip trouble .

[HolmenTree]

Factory Husqvarna replaceable tip bars in North American are rebadged Oregon PowerMatch.
Good strong well made bars but with the tip's side plates pinched in a binding cut and the chain still rotating can heat up the sprocket enough to split it releasing the roller bearings.
The 372XP is strong enough to keep the chain rotating in this condition and the operator may not even notice it.
I have burnt a few tips this way with my old 064 and 066, but only when delimbing hardwood.
Delimbing hardwood trees is like another form of bucking, with the weight of the stem producing many different binding tensions in the limbs.

[DelawhereJoe]

Just move to a duromatic bar and never have to worry about blowing out a sprocket  nose again.

[WV_hillbilly]

 At first I thought I burnt up the clutch too  .I was in a cut and the chain just locked up  and the clutch started smoking .  I have never locked up  or blown a tip before and have wore out 2 dozen bars in the last 20 years cutting firewood so this was a first .  all of my smaller saws have hard nosed bars this is my only saw with replaceable tips in 20, 24,and 28" lengths

[luvmexfood]

Don't do the ignorant thing I did. Had a tip lock up on me. Cheaper bar so I took the roller out and was using it. Sucked the chain  up into the bar. It wedged the bar apart and I liked to never have got it out of the tree which was down. Even picked the tree up with a dozer and shook it. We live and we learn.

[OH logger]

one thing NOT  to do is  after you put on a new bar after blowin out the tip  and continue cutting do NOT put the saw in the same kerf as the kerf you blew out the tip in. all the metal parts of the bearing are still in the cut and will dull the heck out of the chain. I only replace the tip IF the bar is still in really good shape. tips are getting so expensive and if the bar is not in pretty good shape it makes more sense to start with a good bar. but that's just my 1 cent  ;D

[Al_Smith]

I think in all the years I've only blown one tip on a non replaceable tip Oregon bar on a Mac PM 610 .I used that thing for years and years and likely wore out a bucket full of chain loops before the tip went .

At one time Oregon had a packaged deal they called a "cord cutter " One bar,two chains,file and guide holder ,semi chisel.They figured with two chains you could change them out and get a cord before you had to file .That's the bar I ran for so long .

Now it might be such a thing that having been used to hard tipped bars I run a sprocket nose probably a little looser than most.That might be why I get so long out of a bar . Debatable I suppose like everything else .

[DelawhereJoe]

On my old 026 I used to use up a bar about every 3 years or so, but it has no where near the power of your 372. It was my limbing and small tree saw, to my 041 it was a lite weight. My 041 never used up a bar, an old durimatic, not a spek of paint left on it anywhere. The bars on the 026 were just the Lowes specials, Oregon bars and a yellow label Stihl chain. Never greased a sprocket, would occasionally cut into the leaf litter, cut a stump out and never blew a nose out. Sounds like you had a bad nose.

[WV_hillbilly]

I put the new nose on and ran it for 6 hrs today seems ok

[sandsawmill14]

we used to blow them fairly often on the old 1050 supers but thats been so long ago i suspect the roller tips were fairly new  ??? other than that i can only remeber one going bad and i let a tree set back and pinch it early that morning and it gave up after lunch :

[ehp]

you get a saw with lots of power and in pretty cold weather say 30 below or colder and deep snow  and cutting bigger hard maple and that type of timber you will blow tips all the time , I have seen lots of weeks you blow 3 tips , I think the cold and the snow has lots to do with the tip blowing

[JohnW]

you get a saw with lots of power and in pretty cold weather say 30 below or colder and deep snow  and cutting bigger hard maple and that type of timber you will blow tips all the time , I have seen lots of weeks you blow 3 tips , I think the cold and the snow has lots to do with the tip blowing

Interesting.  And there's another reason not to cut when it's 30 below.

[ehp]

and you carry at least 6 chains with you cause your going to need them  8), the drivers donot like the colder either and break, during the warmer months you hardly ever break a chain but in the real cold they break all the time

[HolmenTree]

and you carry at least 6 chains with you cause your going to need them  8), the drivers donot like the colder either and break, during the warmer months you hardly ever break a chain but in the real cold they break all the time

How long have you been logging Ed? :D

Winters up here are alot warmer then it was 25-30 yrs ago.
But I can tell you back in the cold 1980's winters when I was cut and skid logging spruce and jack pine, I never had to carry extra chains or had a problem with them breaking.
When I started field testing the then new Oregon 73LG chain in the winter of 1980-81, I was sitting on a stump touching up my 73LP chain and it was about 35 below.
This big burly guy walks up over dressed and his beard and glasses were covered with frost. I recognized him from a pic in Chainsaw Age magazine.
I said to him "Your Gary Walrath the world champion hot saw guy aren't you?"
He said " Yes how did you know?"
I replied "I heard from some of the guys from the other camp that there's a sasquatch from Oregon who's bringing a new chisel chain for us to test."

Big Gary laughed so hard the snow almost fell out of the tree next to him.

The following winters big Gary brought out more products to test. Most notably the PowerMatch bars, radial port rim sprockets and files.

Upon moving our camp further north to Thompson,Manitoba some of the December and January months we had 40 below every day for weeks on end so we had no choice and had to keep cutting especially weeks before Christmas.
And as I said  we had no chain breaking problems.

We also felled alot of the weed trees like frozen birch and poplar in 30-40 below.

Some of my best production days were in these temperatures.
Spruce limbs snap off like magic and by the time the skidder gets the load to the landing, the  topped treelength logs look like masts for a sailing ship

[ehp]

I started cutting in the bush a long time ago and before the 80's , big difference in softwood or aspen , when your cutting big maple, oak birch you put a lot more stress on the bar and chain in those temps plus add in 3 plus feet of snow and the saw is never out of the snow as your stumps have to be 12 inches or less in height

[HolmenTree]

I started cutting in the bush a long time ago and before the 80's , big difference in softwood or aspen , when your cutting big maple, oak birch you put a lot more stress on the bar and chain in those temps plus add in 3 plus feet of snow and the saw is never out of the snow as your stumps have to be 12 inches or less in height

I started working cut and skid for the company in 1974 when I was 16. That would make you 11 years old then Ed.  :(

We don't get the snow you guys get out east. But we still have knee deep snow that stays from November to April though. 
You can't compare your trees to ours as ours is alot slower growing and harder. Your white pine is soft , our jack pine , white and black spruce is alot harder. Along with tamarack and black and white poplar. Our white birch when frozen throws sparks from the b/c.

Our spruce, poplar can get up to 36"dbh or bigger. Birch I cut alot of 20". We cut our stumps near ground level, if I left a 12" stump my skidder operator would run me over :D

Limbing and topping frozen spruce is hard on the chain (try and chop a spruce knot with a racing axe and see what happens :D)

When I was on the safety committee  I did monthly safety tours of the crews. The only broken chains I saw was when they were run on worn out sprockets or improper  filing. Don't matter if if it's cutting in 40 below.

[ehp]

I started cutting cedar fence post a 6 years old , I sold firewood during the winter time that same year and ran the saw myself . I went full time skidding at 10 year old when not in school , had my own crew at 12 that I was in charge of when not in school, that right 12 years old . And the next day after I finished school I had 37 men and 7 skidders to look after and did that for years . You cannot compare cutting aspen or spruce to hard maple that's an average of 3 ft or bigger on the stump , its totally to different worlds , aspen and white pine and spruce is soft like a weed , now try cutting hard maple in -40C with the wood having a high amount of frozen water crystals in it and see how the chain stands that . now where I log now is totally different , same tree names but wood is a lot softer mainly cause it grows a lot faster and its not as cold . I have not broken a chain in years here and hardly ever blow a tip but am smart enough to know if I ever went back up there logging I would have no less than 5 new bars and chains in my truck at all times just for me

[HolmenTree]

Great stories Ed ...hahahahahahah

The way you were talking earlier you were breaking chains left and right in 40 below.

With our long cold temps our trees freeze solid. And I dropped thousands of cords of frozen birch at 40 below ....with a 90cc 'sered  or a 064 pulling a 18-20" 3/8 chain ...wasn't breaking chains like you said. :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D Come on you two,minus 40 degrees and you were playing Paul Bunyan in the woods ,really now .The coldest I've ever experienced was 42 below F but that was above the  arctic circle on the polar ice cap .I wasn't cutting wood either nor did I stay out too long .Only a polar bear would stay out in weather like that and that's because they don't know any better .

[sawguy21]

 :D :D

[HolmenTree]

Yep you crawl back down into your cozy submarine up there in the artic circle, before a polar bear gets you Al. :D :D

[chevytaHOE5674]

You two are tougher than me, I get cold in the processor with the heat cranked up at -40°.  :D

[HolmenTree]

 :D :D

[Al_Smith]

The coldest I've ever seen in Ohio was 23 below and as luck would have it I was out in it,in a refinery  .Didn't much care for that .It's been years since it's been even 10 below and I don't miss it a bit .

It was around 10 below when I had the bright idea to noodling some late cut white oak rounds,some 4 feet in diameter one of the trimmers dropped off .I attacked it with every thing I had including a McCulloch 125 and could hardly make a dent in it ,frozen solid .Could not even drive a wedge in it with a 10 pound sledge hammer .Never before or since have I experienced frozen wood .Gave up.went back in the house

Oh BTW I still have my Arctic cold weather gear when I was on the ice cap .Even more amazing I can still fit into them.They are hanging in my garage .In 1969 I was 21 years old and weighed 212 pounds and now just short of 69  I still weigh 210 so the beer didn't get me too badly .I do however have nearly 350 bucks worth of new Carhart Arctics I carry in the car during winter .You can freeze to death if you ever get caught out in those temps ,even 10 below .

[HolmenTree]

Al, here's a good story about chainsaws on the 60°below arctic ice cap from 1967.


  

[ehp]

Al, you worked for my father and if it was -40 outside you better have your back side in the bush or you were fired , there is lots of stuff people do not know about our family and what we did, we also ran 2 other logging crews in the USA for close to 20 years and 1 crew in Central America with the big snakes cutting those big hardwood in the jungle , I was not around that much as I was up here running stuff and I did not like down there as everything was either going to bite you , kill you , eat you , not my place to have fun , where I am now the only way it could get even close to 40 below is by wind chill , just to close to Lake Erie

[HolmenTree]

The majority of the oil pipe line protesters at Standing Rock, North Dakota can't get out of there fast enough at the moment.
Highways were closed due to a prairie blizzard dumping 2 feet of snow on them.
Collapsing tents and burning up from  fires used to keep  warm.

And it's only 5 F (-15 C).
It's only going to get alot colder when the snow stops and the skies clear.

[Al_Smith]

Well after experiencing frozen wood but once I can see how it would play havoc on chains etc .I can also see how a downed tree could freeze before it was cut into logs if it lays long enough .What I can't understand is how in the world could a live standing northern tree freeze ?

Do those trees circulate the sap like a goose does blood  to prevent damage?  I would think a frozen tree would die .Of course I realize they aren't palm trees or live oaks because we don't have them either here in the big corn field .

[snowstorm]

Al, here's a good story about chainsaws on the 60°below arctic ice cap from 1967.


 

would that be ralph plaisted? he and his pals rode there ski doo's to the north pole. i remember reading the book    to the top of the world     they didnt reach the pole on there first attempt. so they went back a year or two later. they made it that time. they brought only one of there ski doos and that was in the snowmobile museum in valcort quebec.   

[Al_Smith]

I suppose you could get a chainsaw started at 40 below,never tried it myself .I'd well imagine you's probably have to thin the bar oil with something to make it flow that cold .I've used automatic transmission fluid before at 10 below but quite frankly it was very seldom even when it got that cold that I did any cutting .I will say this in that cold dry  air they do run good .Any more I'll tell ya Florida for a couple of months in winter is looking better all the time .

One of these days I'll just go to work,walk down to hourly personal and say I'm going on 30 days vacation,get my pension started .Go home pack my stuff call that 5 foot 2 blond and say,hon,we're out of here .Snow and cold lost it's appeal for me many years ago .

[ehp]

Al, in the winter time a tree is pretty much dead and believe me it freezes , main thing is the water that was in the tree turns to ice inside the grain of the tree , some types of trees are far worse than other in the cold as well , as far as bar oil goes you just go buy it , they make bar oil for that cold of weather , its super thin and no good at say freezing , its pretty much water at that point . Chainsaws run good at -40 you just need to set the carb for that temp and run good high test gas which we always use any ways and 99% of the guys run XPG or Arctic saws . Cutting in that cold is not as bad as you think , you cut everyday so you get use to it but one thing you learn is watch out for getting hit in the face with even little sticks as you would think you got hit with a baseball bat , your skin sure stings a lot more in the cold

[barton174]

Screw that. I was outside working on my truck in the parking lot at work (in a windy field) one day at -17F (stuff always breaks on the coldest day in 5 years), and that was enough for me. Though, when it's that cold, it's dry enough that it doesn't feel much worse than 0F, as long as you're not exposing too much skin. Of course, I was replacing a throttle body and sensors and stuff, so couldn't really wear gloves. Work a minute or two, warm hands up, repeat.

Mike

[HolmenTree]

Working  as a hand faller in 30-40 below is totally opposite then doing almost anything else for work in that kind of cold. Just like the moose and deer to stay warm you have to keep moving in the bush.

You can dress for the cold and be very comfortable but you can't dress comfortably for high heat.
Winter logging clothes I wore were heavy Stanfields wool long john under wear .
Wool cutter pants with kevlar pads held up by suspenders (yeah I know that's a girlie joke to you blokes down under :D).
Wool bush jacket covered by a nylon covered insulated vest .Goose down is the warmest but fibre fill is better as a slight rip in the vest will lose all  your feathers. Plus the fiber fill stays drier from body heat condensation.

Hard hat wool liner that covers the ears and back of the neck. Ear muffs won't seal so you have to wear ear plugs.
Helmet screen only as glasses fog up. Fallers with poor eye sight and need glasses can't hold a job in these conditions.

Steel toe bush pac boots with rubber bottom leather uppers with heavy felt liners. Wool socks.
Leather mittens with trigger finger on right hand mitt with matching wool liners keep you dry and toasty.

Saws need their rewind housing grills covered .about 3/4 up with duct tape to cut down on the cold air intake plus ingestion of fluffy snow which goes straight to the carb (air injection doesn't seperate that).Husqvarna supplies a winter preheater kit that blocks the air injection on some of their models.
Warm air circulation window in top cover divider has to be open to get cylinder heat back to the carb.
Heated carbs which are easily available in the cold climate market like Canada keeps them ice free.

The old Huskies/Jonsereds with the solid carb stud mount brought enough heat to the carb from the cylinder  to help keep them ice free.

Bar oil like winter grade that I used was like about 5W motor oil thickness. But even that will get pretty thick at 40 below. But no problem as the oil tank on the saw is always warmed up from the crankcase when the saw is working.

But sometimes  first thing in the morning if the saw is left outside you may have to warm it up against the skidder's exhaust pipe outlet with the skidder engine at fast idle.

[sawguy21]

I have had enough of working in those temperatures. It's bad enough when the air is still, a breeze makes life absolutely miserable. The guys I got a laugh out of perched their saws on the snow bank next to the fire. ;D

[Al_Smith]

Oh believe me I've spent my time outside in winter weather .I worked construction as an IBEW electrician for 20 years before I got the job I do now .It wasn't 30-40 below but it was cold enough .10-15 below 100 foot up on a vessel with a 10 MPH wind in a refinery will freeze the business off a brass monkey .The novelty of cold weather and snow butt deep to a tall Indian wore off years ago for me --but ya gotta do what ya gotta do at times .---I get it 

[HolmenTree]

Those by gone days logging in the chilly wilderness are all but distant fond memories for me now.
I can still smell the suppers in the camp cook house. 
Our head cook Inga Reimer put on some amazing meals that tasted so good after working all day in the cold air.

Only logging going on now a days around here is a contractor's processor working day and night.

But I do get a little taste of winter (kind of logging) when I last widened a powerline grid corridor.  ;D
A few years back in -30 below.

Short bar on a 372XP. Still have that bar in use today with the original sprocket nose still working fine.


 

[moodnacreek]

  Under normal conditions they outlast the bar I just burned up my first one on a husky that stopped oiling in a big log. [ I've had nothing but trouble with oilers on husky's]                           

[Kbeitz]

I'll take the hottest day before I put any wool under wear on...

[HolmenTree]

I'll take the hottest day before I put any wool under wear on...

In cold weather I can work harder and cut twice as much wood then I can on a hot day.
I can tell stories of  high production workers like miners and timber fallers in the PNW.
They don't even work in freezing temperatures and heavy wool is their choice.

But then I do understand some people have tender sensitive skin and can't endure having wool on them. :D ;D

[Kbeitz]

The wool itch would just drive me crazy-er.

[petefrom bearswamp]

seems like this thread has deteriorated from the subject to war stories about cold weather.

[HolmenTree]

seems like this thread has deteriorated from the subject to war stories about cold weather.

Pete we'll get this replaceable chainsaw bar tip thread back on track. Hehe :D

Here's a real war story about which company sold the first replaceable  sprocket nose bar.
1971 Windsor introduced  the first replaceable sprocket nose bar and it is a good design still sold today with only a change in the joint mount.

Swedish company Sandvik claims they made the first sprocket nose bar, which they did but the tip was solidly built into a one piece laminated bar. Not a replaceable sprocket tip that Windsor clearly advertised. Sandvik introduced their replaceable tip over 10 years later but their bar body was still laminated not offering good bar maintenance from bar rail spreading.

By 1988-89 Sandvik successfully sued Windsor for their claims of being the pioneer of sprocket nose design enabling them to buy out Windsor. The company then was named Sandvik Windsor.

I don't to this day fully understand how it was possible Sandvik won the case. But I do know Windsor did loose alot of sales and revenue in the mid to late 1980's when Oregon took over a good number of Windsor's contracts. One most notable to me was in Canada Stihl switched from Windsor suppling their bar to Oregon.
Import laws at the time was Stihl could only sell their saws in Canada with a Canadian made product on it. Stihl supplied their Swiss made chain with their powerheads mounted on a grey painted with Stihl logo Canadian made Windsor bar. Then around 1987 Stihl switched ovet to a Canadian made Oregon bar. Stihl was allowed to sell their 25" and over German bars in Canada. But the majority of bar sales in Canada was under 25". I believe other saw companies did the same and switched to Oregon bars also.

So by the time the late1980's rolled along Windsor went from enjoying suppling 80% of the chainsaw manufacturers in North America and Europe with guide bars, to decreased revenue which enabled Sandvik to successfully battle them in court and then taking the company over.

This is my opinion even though I don't know the whole story.
Here's some old ads from the 1970's how these 2 companies tried to out duel each other.


  

  

 


  

  

 

[HolmenTree]

Sandvik introduces their replaceable sprocket nose bar in this 1983 ad
.
2nd ad is from 1989 when Sandvik takes over Windsor ending a dynasty.

Last 2 pics shows pioneering times for Windsor Machine Co. in 1971.



  

 


  

 

[HolmenTree]

Windsor also made sawchain from 1/4" to 2 1/4" pitch.
From summer of 1973.


 

[thecfarm]

HolmenTree,got any pictures of the beast that run that chain. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

I wondered why I didnt see any Windsor stuff after a while.

[HolmenTree]

HolmenTree,got any pictures of the beast that run that chain. 

I'm still looking, probably a picture somewhere in my library.
But I do have this from the article .

Also the last article of the "loop maker" from the same page really got my interest.


  

  

  

 

[thecfarm]

HolmenTree,nice to have members like you.  ;D You have got some books,literature.
Thank you for sharing them with us.

[HolmenTree]

HolmenTree,nice to have members like you.  ;D You have got some books,literature.
Thank you for sharing them with us.

Your very much welcome cfarm. I enjoy digging up this cool old stuff and sharing it with members here that have been aroind long enough to appreciate it.
Advertising on a magazine page was so well done back in the 1970's and 80's.
Like these 2 advertisements here from the early 1970's. True work of art!

I Also found you the picture of that mechanical harvester with the giant Windsor sawchain.
Looks like a typo as it says 2 1/2" pitch not 2 1/4" . Not the greatest picture, the poor photographer was probanly a city guy and was scared to death :D will look for another.

Last pic is an article from 1974 when Windsor starts manufacturing saw chain in Brazil.


  

  

  

 

[thecfarm]

Thank you. I know what it takes to look for something. Time wise too.

[HolmenTree]

Great company Windsor was, builders of the famous durable Speed Tip still used today.
Interesting note about the Windsor company, in 1974 about the time when they were in full worldwide production. R.H. Livsey their director of marketing turned 83 years old!
Lots of experience. 

My family and I are presently sitting at the airport waiting to board our flight at 18:50 to London, England.
We'll see lot's of industrial "experience " over there.
We're excited!
See you in 2 weeks.


 

[sawguy21]

Have fun. Don't forget to look right before stepping off the curb.

[HolmenTree]

Thanks Roy :D

[HolmenTree]

Seeing alot of these vehicles around London today plugged into a charging post  getting their batteries recharged.


 

[sawguy21]

That extension cord won't get him far. ;D

[Kbeitz]

Not unless it's one of them new stretchahmatic cords.