Used mill buying ???

[barbender]

 Looking at a used woodmizer LT40 Super. How do I make sure there aren't any liens or anything when there is no title? Hate to fork out many $$$ and then have some banker come looking for it :(.

[Papa1stuff]

Get the serial number and call WM ,they can tell you a  lot about the machine!

[Chuck White]

You should also have the seller write out a sales slip.

It should state on the sales slip that there are no leins on the machine as well as the V.I.N., and the mill description!

[paul case]

chuck is right . bill of sale is the way to go on things that dont have a title. notarized if at all possible.if you are financing it thru a bank they can tell you if it has a lein against it. in oklahoma equipment with leins have to be registered by the bank when money is borrowed.pc

[Magicman]

Your bank should provide you with a bill of sale, handle the notarizing and everything.  I know that mine would, whether I was borrowing or not.

[Doug_D]

In the state of Illinois many lenders will file a "UCC lien" when there is no title.  I would get the serial number and also the owners name (guy selling & the one registered with Woodmizer) and then do a UCC search.  If you are getting a loan, ask your lender to do the search.

Add this to your bill of sale....
The sale is subject to the following conditions and representations:
Seller warrants to Buyer that Seller has good and marketable ownership rights to said
property, full authority to sell and transfer said property, and that said property is sold
free of all liens, encumbrances, liabilities, and adverse claims of every nature and
description whatsoever.

Just my 2 cents....

[barbender]

Thank you guys, that is all very helpful. Unfortunately this deal has fallen through. I was originally looking for an LT15, watching craigslist. Well, I found a very vague ad for a "WM LT40 with hydrualics, only 74 hours. Best offer over $20,000" Well, is it a 40 hydrualic, super hydrualic, gas, diesel??? So I call the fella, he is as vague as the ad,except he says it has the gas engine, 24 horse he thinks. He paid someone else to operate it, he never touched it himself. Well I had just worked a 15 hour day so I was feeling a little vague myself. I told him I would like to come have a look at it. He said that his son was delivering it to his warehouse in Duluth the next day, I could come look at it then. Well, I figured I'd go have a look and I could ID what exactly it was and determine if it was a good price or not. So, the next day, I rise early call the owner to make sure the mill made it there, he said he hadn't got ahold of his son but was sure he made it in. So, I load up the family and drive the 100 miles to duluth and upon arrival give the fella a call. He asks if I got his message. Umm, no I didn't. "Our road to our property was washed out, my son couldn't get to the mill." :( Oh well, stuff happens, I can let that go. Anyhow, this phone consversation he has way more info. It's an 06 Super Hydrualic, and it has a Kubota diesel, not the gas. Every option available that year, Accuset 2, Debarker, Sharpener and Setter with it, all extra parts he had from his fleet of 5 of these mills he had. Extra debarker etc. I told him I was out of my league, I thought it was a gas engine , my best offer over 20K was going to be 21K if I liked the machine, and I realize this unit is worth waayyy more than that. He replied he had a fella offer him 32,500 for it but he couldn't get the money right away. I told him I couldn't even come close to that(I started out looking for an LT15 for cryin out loud) Well, he wants to know what can I offer? Well, I have a pretty good handle on what this thing is worth, I've been studying the woodmizer catalog like crazy lately, all the extras with it. All I can do is $25K (I know I am stretching my limits financially here) Well he would talk to the guy from Wisconsin and see if he was going to come up with the cash or not. He would call me back. OK, so I took the family out to do some fun things in town, the day wasn't wasted. The next day, I waited half the day for his call, finally called him. He was sorry he hadn't reached me, his warehouse had gotten flooded with 6" of water the night before, the duluth storm drain backed up in some flash flooding.(They got around 4" of rain- the mill wasn't in there luckily) But, the Wisconsin fella can't get money for a week or 2, if I can get him the $25K the mill is mine. But he needs to get it done with now (this is on Sunday), can I wire him a down payment of $500? And he needs the full payment in cash, because his bank is in Wisconsin and they put a hold on checks from out of state banks:o I haven't even seen this thing yet. I said why don't I run down there quick, look at it, I'll give you a down payment if you can give me a reciept. (I'm getting a little suspicious when he wants me to wire him cash,and why won't a cashiers check work??) Well, he'd call me as soon as his son got it there. I had only a narrow time frame, I had to be back in Grand Rapids at 6pm. Well, he never called, I understood he had a full plate that day but he seemed to be in a rush to get this all done. Well I never heard back from him, so the next day I was Johnny on the spot calling the bank right at 9, get everything approved, making a lot of phone calls to get insurance for it, etc. Ok, everything is in order, except I need a serial # from the mill for the loan. I call the owner several times, finally get ahold of him. He will call me with the serial# in a few minutes. OK, after 2 hours I call him back- I'm at work, I don't have unlimited time to wait around for a phone call.  :( Oh, sorry, he says, I'm at the parts store right now, I'll run back and get that number for you and call right back. No prob, I think. I talk to my foreman, he tells me I can get off early enough to get the loan squared away and go to duluth to look at the mill. That's good, I usually can't get off early like that. I got off at 1:30, drove home and waited for the phone call. It doesn't come. I try him a few times, no answer. I'm starting to get a little frustrated, I've got all my ducks in a row because he was in a rush to get this done and now I'm sitting at home waiting for his call :(. Well, finally I got ahold of him about 4:00, he had left his cell phone in his son's car and his son left. OK, honest mistake. I still need the serial#!!! He says he'll call me back with it, 45 minutes tops. OK, I'm not going to make it to the bank now, and I don't want to drive to Duluth to look at it and not be able to pick it up now. He's fine with that, he'll call me. So I wait, and I wait..... Finally I went outside and started clearing some brush with the skid steer to vent a little. Come in about 10, ask my wife if he called.. Nope. So I go to bed mad. Got up this morning mad. Tried to call him 3 times. No answer. Now I'm really mad. He was the one in the big rush to get this done, and he can't even return my phone calls >:( >:( Finally I left him a message that my offer just dropped back to $21K, I'm sick of wasting my time, you can sell it to somebody else for all I care. call me back or don't, whatever, I am mad and stressed beyond caring at this point. So, I haven't heard from him, no surprise there. This was a very frustrating experience, I was very excited to own this mill, scared of how much $$ I was laying out, lots of emotions, I knew I would have to make some dough with it to pay for it. I don't even know if it exists for certain!!! What a rollercoaster ride Sorry this got so long, I just found an LT15 on craigslist to call on. Back at square one :

[Coon]

You should go to your nearest WM dealer and just purchase a mill with the funding that your bank has approved for this non existant mill.  I am sure you could actually do this over the phone with WM to get the serial number before you make the trip.  WM has some awesome deals right now.......  New mill.... warranty..... what more could you ask for..... if its used you are after I am sure WM could line you up with one of them too.....   ;D 

[barbender]

That's kind of what I was thinking, I know Woodmizer returns their phone calls.

[paul case]

it sounds to me like you was almost snookered. rule#1 if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. rule#2 revert to rule#1. maybe the sn was 0000oooo.... pc

[LAZERDAN]

Do you have his phone no.?   I would like to hunt him down   

[paul case]

lazerdan,
i got some pent up anger issues with the guys that stole my saws that i could send with you to give him.pc

[Bill Gaiche]

barbender, What a run around. If i was betting, the saw would be hot. He and his friends proably had someone elses in mind to sell to you. They proably couldnt get there hands on it at the time. Could be some of you sawyers on here hes trying to sell. Hope not.
  I was at Wills in Mt Vernon, Mo monday and looked at a LT 28. Very nice saw and well built. I believe that they are selling it at a very reasonable price now. About $11700.00. Not sure what add ons it had. Good luck at finding a good deal. bg

[paul case]

i have some neighbors that have a wm 30 or 40 ,wm edger and wm resaw  some gas and some electric and the whole deal could be bought for less than 21k . they are in ok though. 2 years ago a friend of mine ,fred, bought a wm lt40 and baker resaw with a sawdust blower system for 14k. the deals are out there look for honest ones. cookssaw's last magazine had 2 lt 40's in it for sale for 16k and 19k. dont be afraid of a used one cause from what i hear they hold up real well. pc

[pineywoods]

Ditto the used mizers. I can't speak for the other brands but I don't think you can wear out an lt40. Everything thats a normal wear item is easily replaceable or can be adjusted. I bought a used 95 manual mill with 4500 hours. Motor was tired but still usable. I adjusted the head to bunk spacing for the first time yesterday -7200 hours. Have a neighbor who has a 95 that was converted to 3 phase electric. has 17000 hours on it and is still run daily. Be patient, the good deals are out there..

[LarryRB]

I talked to the same guy with the mill. He told me it would not start as the mice got into the wiring. He said he was selling it because of heath reasons and that he had cancer and the doctor told him to sell it.

[barbender]

Yep, that is the same guy. I think he is legitimate, just too many irons in the fire maybe. Seriously, I hope he didn't pass away or something, he sure isn't answering my phone calls. There are more important issues in life than a mill sale for sure, I hope I'm not being too tough on him. This was a big deal for me though, this would've been the single biggest purchase I ever made.

[barbender]

As far as the used mills, I hear you guys, there are honest deals out there, and I know the Mizers don't really wear out. I'm still not sure what I'll do, I talked to Wisconsin WoodMizer today, they could bring an LT28 up to the North Star expo for me in September, they demo it at the show and I get free delivery. Plus they would do the training there. So, I'm thinking it over. I like the deals you can get on used stuff, but it seems like half the time it ends up being an adventure and waste of time.  Maybe I'll just fine tune my homebrew mill and be content with it. Time will tell.

[Brucer]

As I read your story, first thought popped into my head: too many excuses.

Second thought that popped into my head: the last year Wood-Mizer sold the Super with the Kubota diesel was 2004.

Sounds to me like this mill is a phantom mill.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Here's how I think about it.   Good chance this is a good mill and you could get a great deal.  But looks like you have to be patient and careful.    Must be very careful if you're buying a used mill from someone who isn't exactly rock solid in his presentation style which seems to be this seller.   There will be an explanation for all this behaviour which you  can probably understand after you make contact and probably understand even more  after you buy the mill and reflect on it a few more months (hint hint find out beforehand).  Also you have to be careful about evaluating a used LT-40 if you haven't owned one before because it is a complicated machine full of details. Especially if the mill isn't running.  Also even if you can get it running you may not want to before checking some things like the engine oil, the transmission fluid in the main drive bearing, etc. etc.   Also it wouldn't be hard to ruin something or do something very dangerous starting up and running a mill by inexperienced operators.

My LT-40 super 2001 42Hp kubota has a VIN sticker on the main beam which you can see in the center of this photo.
I recommend asking for a photo of this, or copies of the original purchase receipt, or if nothing else for the VIN/Serial # from this sticker.  I would absolutely call  wood-mizer and verify that your seller is the owner of this mill.  Also I would talk to WM about key things to check out on a used mill.  WM is 100% helpful.   

If you can get this far it would be great if you could find an LT-40 owner to go with you to evaluate and buy the mill. I'm sure many of us on the forum would be happy to help you make a list of key things on the mill to check out.

My diesel is great.  I can saw for about 6-7 mill hours on a 5 gal tank of diesel.
good luck

[barbender]

Well, the patience part is where I came up short. : It wouldn't surprise me if the mill wasn't an 06, as Brucer suggested. I don't know these machines enough to know which year they had what motor. Woodmizer seems to go through enough engine suppliers. For what it is worth, from personal experience, I would have rather had a kubota than a cat diesel, which I think is a Perkins rebadged. That's from with experience construction equipment though. You fella's tell me, what's the best motor on these mills? I still don't know what I'll do. I could buy an LT15 and have it paid for, and just have it for personal use and a very occasional custom job. If I go with an LT28, I'd have to borrow money, and I would have to make money with it to justify the price. I don't know if I want to have to make money with an all manual mill. But, once I start looking at options and hydrualics, it's kind of all or nothing. (LT40 super) When I can't decide, I just wait.

[paul case]

mine has a honda but it aint a wm mill. i think that a lot of peoples preference on motors comes from what they have used a lot. maybe the motor isnt the most important part since it usually wouldnt cost too much to replace a kohler 25 when compared to the cost of a new mill. i think a 20 hp honda can be bought for less than 2000 and my mill new cost 6500.   pc

[Doug_D]

BB you sound much like myself.  When I can't make up my mind I usually pull back until the answer becomes clear....or what is commonly called "analysis paralysis".  In pursuit of finding the perfect answer, we end up doing nothing which in my opinion worse than making the wrong answer.  That being said, I like to follow the business philosophy of "fail fast, fail cheap" and move on to the next idea :-)  This just means don't dump your life savings into something until you can confirm it's going to work out. 

I've got a friend that has an LT15 and has been sawing for 7 years (evenings - part time).  There are days when when he could justify a 30k LT40, but there are many days\weeks\months were he is glad he's only got an LT15 too.

I am sure you will find many on here that will tell you that going into business to pay for a piece of equipment is the wrong thing to do.

LT15 - keep it fun :-)
LT28 - Looking down the barrel of a payment each month :-(

[paul case]

doug,
i am with you  on the double barrel payment book thing. dont do it if you can help it.

barbender,
a fella needs to have the justification for buying a mill. just saying i am gonna cut lumber isnt enough. having a market for the lumber or an end use in mind makes it a much more stable investment. most banks wont take payments in boards.i had in mind to use my own logs to saw for lumber for the addition to a house. the framing lumber alone would have cost just more than the mill i purchased. many fellas here have done this. the mill is now a income source for my farm. selling lumber and cants plus doing custom sawing.
     another consideration has to be manual or automated. someone who isnt very mechanically able probably may not want many bells and whistles.less things to go haywire. for me , i am young enough to enjoy the work and am not really working for high production so a manual mill fits me pretty good. it was affordable enough that i could pay cash for it.
        intrest is a little cheaper now but when i built my chicken farm at 10% intrest and 12 years on a $330,000 note you would pay the bank a total of $548,000 or so. i dont have to guess who was making more money.
   these things and serveral others all must be considered so as not to wind up with a high priced paper weight.pc

[Brucer]

For what it is worth, from personal experience, I would have rather had a kubota than a cat diesel, which I think is a Perkins rebadged.

Yep, the "Cat" is a Perkins.

WM has been switching over to Yanmar diesels on their most recent mills. My 1982 John Deere tractor has a Yanmar diesel. It's had its share of abuse and it's still going strong.

a fella needs to have the justification for buying a mill.

For many of us, that's true. But I know several people who spent $30k plus on a fancy boat without giving it a second thought. "Why'd I buy it? Because I wanted one." If you've got the dollars and get as much enjoyment from a sawmill, why not buy one for "fun".

I went for an LT-40 manual to do part time work, because I could afford one. When the "part-time" work got out of hand in less than a year, I borrowed the money to upgrade to a hydraulic mill. No problem borrowing the money -- I had a track record and I was able to show the bank that the mill would always be worth more than what I owed them. Paid the thing off in 20 months instead 60.

There are good mills out there at fair prices (like my original mill) but you have to do your homework -- and don't be afraid to walk away from one if you start to sense that something isn't quite right.