My Intro

DragonsBane · May 20, 2005, 07:25:05 PM

I linked to here from woodweb and have spent a few days looking around. So far this seems like a very informative site.

I decided to join when I read about a couple of guys designing swing blades. Just thought I jump in with a few details. I have a preliminary design based somewhat on the Peterson WPF, but it has a 12 1/4 inch cut. I designed it around a 31 hp Briggs and Stratton. I found a centrifugal clutch able to handle the hp over at www.blm-cm.com. Model number F60H-3506X1-1/8 for $352.00. I'm still waiting to hear from www.curtismachine.com on their Model 413 right angle gearbox in a 1:1 ratio. I still need to find a blade but I'm going to contact Menominee saw to get a price on a 30" 6 tooth Insert style blade.

I would like to talk to those who are designing their own swing blades. Maybe we could put our heads together and come up with an excellent saw.

Later all....

HORSELOGGER · May 20, 2005, 07:46:27 PM

Welcome there DB ... 30 inch swinger blade

That is a lot of weight rotatin to swing . Might be a little much ??? That 1:1 gearbox is not the best for hardwoods if you are at about 2700 to 3200 rpm at the engine. A little fast. I would be wonderin how well that big a blade will be able to cut in the horizontal position with that Briggs motor. The horizontal cut is always a lot tougher to make clean with a swinger. Well good luck to ya... I have always admired the guys willing to work out all the issues in building a machine from scratch ;D

Timburr · May 20, 2005, 08:44:26 PM

Welcome to the forum DragonsBane
Although I'm not adversed to designing and building mechanical kit, I would not tackle a swinger...too much going on with the blade and safe fitting of. It has to be right first time. The manufacturers design...test...re-design... test...test again...prototype...test..you get my point. :D
The forces on the blade are compounded the larger the linear diameter...they are dis-proportionate to diam.
You may need to opt for a 'slower' ratio g'box to balance the periferal speed of the blade to the engine.
A very positive log dogging system is required with all that lateral force.
Is there a specific reason why you need a 12 1/4" cut ???

I own a swinger (Lucas) and have worked a number of mods into it over the years.

It would be good to see how this post progresses and good luck with your venture.

Tim

Fla._Deadheader · May 20, 2005, 09:07:37 PM

For what it's worth, I had contact with Curtis several times. Never got what I needed.

I did all the research I could, and found that the model 413, would handle right at 25 HP. It will never stand up to the HP you describe.

I also can not believe you can shift the blade from vertical to horizontal, easily. The gyroscopic effect will be a killer to overcome, without a motor activated cam or some such device.

Have you ever had your habds on a swinger ?? I would strongly suggest you do that, if possible, before you go much further.

I build things that others say will not work, so, I am not against what you are planning. I just think a little more studying might be in order ???

I don't remember where you are located, but, the Sawlex Shindig, in Ohio, June 3-4, would be an EXCELLENT place to see every type of swinger, I believe. Good luck, and keep us updated.

Oh Yeah, Welcome to the Forum. Yer home, now. ;)

;D ;D

DragonsBane · May 20, 2005, 09:34:40 PM

I was looking at the gas engine as a possibility for others. The one i'm going to build for myself is a semi-permanent full hydraulic model. We don't get many logs over 4 foot in dia. here in PA unless you get up in the Allegheny National forest.

I wanted a 12 1/4" cut mainly because there isn't a swinger that big. Maybe there IS a reason for that. Besides I can get a premium for 12" wide boards.

A full hydraulic mill would overcome all the gyroscopic effect by using a cylinder to change from horizontal to vertical and back. A hydraulic motor would eliminate the need for a gearbox too. You could also add a hydraulic motor for power feed and a couple to control the position off the blade. And from what I read alot of people are using tractors as skidders anyhow, so one could possibly use the hydraulic pump off the tractor to run a smaller version. I guess it would depend on the size of the tractor. I use an Allis-Chalmers 190 XT to do all my work on the farm so thats what I'm used to.

Oh well, need to get some things done.

I do heavy construction for a living, I do heavy fabrication for fun.

There are no such thing as failures, only lessons learned.

Later all.........

Fla._Deadheader · May 20, 2005, 10:00:29 PM

That last bit of info makes a LOT more sense. ;D

Never said it couldn't be done, just takes a little extra planning. ;) :D

Ianab · May 20, 2005, 10:07:50 PM

Hi Dragons

The hydralic drive for a swingblade will work OK, you will want a big tractor (80hp+), mostly so you have the hydralic system capacity to drive a mill. With a dedicated engine / pump you can prolly get away with smaller engine hp.
Making the mill bigger to handle the larger blade will take away some of the portability that is a big feature of the swingblades, but if you aren't moving it much thats not an issue. However the bigger blade will have to be thicker / larger kerf to support the bigger blade. Thats going to reduce your recovery when you are cutting smaller boards.

Also consider the double cutting ability of your mill, the 8" mills will cut 16" wide boards (with a varying amount of fiddling around) So is the extra cost / engineering / kerf of the 12" cut going to be worthwhile? If the carriage drive is all hydralic and operated remotely it takes away a lot gaurd issues when making double cuts. You are well away from the business part of the saw.

I'm also not saying it WONT work, and am interested to see what you come up with

Cheers

Ian

maple flats · May 20, 2005, 10:11:52 PM

On another thread there is a rim speed in feet/second. This could be done by the proper choice of pulleys for driving the gearbox. If you had a 1/1 box you would need to reduce the drive pulley and increase the driven pulley which would increase the HP rating needed on the box.

DragonsBane · May 22, 2005, 05:04:04 PM

Just looked at the D&L Double Cut mills. Maybe alot easier to build two fixed opsition blades and put them on a carriage similar to the Peterson WPF. Kubota Diesels are pretty light and are turbocharged. It is really easy to pull a little extra power from a diesel engine by changing turbos and cranking up the fuel pump. I do it on our farm tractors all the time. Need to work out a tranny arrangement though.

Later all......

D._Frederick · May 22, 2005, 06:05:47 PM

DragonsBane,

The only diesel engines that I know of that will stand up to more boost and fuel are the older Cats dating to the fifties. On the tractors around here, the bottom half of the engine go and the transmission and final drives go. What tractors are you working with?

smwwoody · May 22, 2005, 06:09:10 PM

Hey DB Where you from in PA I just moved from Elk county

Woody

sigidi · May 23, 2005, 06:30:59 PM

mmmmmm - intersting stuff.

DB welcome and learn how to post pics reall soon, so we can all enjoy :D ;)

Timo · May 23, 2005, 07:43:14 PM

Probably something that you are thinking of already, but a thought to safety...

One thing I'd want to ensure with a blade that size would be to have the carraige locked to the tracks. On the Peterson and Lucas gravity is what keeps it all in place, but I think a larger blade/ larger engine combination would warrent a more positive connection with the track. On twisted logs (oh yeah, they never show up :

) the torque can really start to 'feed back'. Just a thought......

Welcome to the Forum

DragonsBane · May 28, 2005, 07:27:28 PM

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you guys. I've been sent out of town for a job and with trying to complete my mechanical engineering degree time is in really short supply. I'll try to answer the questions posted since my last visit.

D. Frederick,

Actually most diesels will take to being turned up quite well. There are things that do need to be carefully done though. Most N/A diesels run around 21:1 to 22:1 compression. Try to put a turbo on that and sooner or later you WILL snap a crank into little pieces. That is why Chevy replaced the 6.2 L with the 6.5 L. Alot of people were putting the Banks kits on there 6.2L and destroying the engines in a short amount of time. Now Turbo Diesels typically run around 18:1 compression to compensate for the high cylinder pressures of being force fed air. The Cummins Turbo Diesels are a good example of this. Alot of those in the Dodge pickups can hondle in excess of 800 turbo horses will no ill effects on the motors.

I typically work with Allis-Chalmers now since that is what my father-in-law runs on the farm. On his 190XT it is rated at 93 horse from the factory and can be turned up to about 120 horse before the bull gears in the rear let loose (usually with one hell of a bang). On the pulling series though I know a couple of guys turning ALOT more than that with no ill effects on the motor. Its just everything else that lets loose.

smwwoody,

I live near Johnstown PA in a old backwoods hillbilly hick coal mining town. Where did you live in Elk. I lived right outside Ridgway for about 18 months. Beautiful country up there. I'd move back in a heartbeat if I could.

sidigi,

I have some preliminary drawings I could put up but they really don't show much. Just some basic layout and a little parts orientation. With the way I'm working right now it's kinda hard to do anymore.

Timo,

I had the same thoughts you did. I could just see biting into a log and the carriage trying to act like the space shuttle and go into orbit. Be funnier than hell to watch from a distance but not too cool if you were close up and personal. I think I'd definitely need to wipe on that one.

Just a little more info. From what I could find on a design standpoint on the internet on a quick search I would need approxamately 80 horse to drive this and would be able to chew a full 12" x 12" cut on a 16 foot log in about 4-5 seconds. Smaller cut may go even faster. Guess I defininitely need a drag back set-up. Right now I'm going to venture a guess on the price to build of about $7500 American. I'm trying to use as many "off the shelf" components as I can to keep the cost down so it may take awhile to find everything I need. Like I said before, once I finish it, make sure it works properly, and get a patent issued I will release the plans for free for private individuals. Commercial use would require a small royalty. Nothing much, just can't let the big guys get away with a free lunch here.

Anyway, that's where I'm at here. Sorry this was so long, but I will try to answer all questions on this. Well, back to the dungeon.........

Later all........