Milling rates

[Bandmill Bandit]

I have quoted several different ways for coustomers and in each case I alway show how the price given relates back to my standard hourly rate of $80 an hour (for good non yard logs) or a $100 an hour for yard trees. Since I started doing it that way I have never had a customer ask for any thing but the hourly rate. It is simple and they see that the price is the price regardless of how we calculate it at the end of the job.

I have even had a few customers keep track of BF during the job and because the reduced kerf of the band saw increases yield in good logs the hourly rate actually saved him about 15% over a BF rate.

My BF rate is 28 cents. My average out put with a good helper/customer off bearing is between 300 & 350 BF/hr. With really good help where I don't have to ever get off the seat, I can get that up over 400 quite easily.

IF I do BF job the clock kicks in at an hourly rate of $80 when the mill has to be shut down for blade changes, bucking/log handling, tramp metal removal or any thing that takes me off the seat and stops the mill.

I don't waver and I don't compete if you don't like the price I don't want your work.

I have been told by several customers that my rate is 20 lower than my competion  with a D&L double cut and 10 higher than another operator with an inferior 4 post Bandmill. I have gone in behind both and got called back again as first choice the next time with 3 clients at this point.

I find that having a no kidding price that you  quote with out thinking about it shows confidence in your operation and your skill.

I learned the hard way on job that I am still paying for. Cost me over $12000 plus the lawyer. I did end up with $1700 (just over 100 tonne) worth of good pine so should at least break even I hope.

[Magicman]

There is no substitute for a clear understanding between the sawyer and the customer.  All billing options and potential charges must be discussed and understood.  Happy customers are repeat customers. 

[Banjo picker]

I learned the hard way on job that I am still paying for. Cost me over $12000 plus the lawyer. I did end up with $1700 (just over 100 tonne) worth of good pine so should at least break even I hope.

Could you be off a 0 somewhere in that post?  Just wondering.  Banjo

[Bandmill Bandit]

Hey banjo!
No I'm not. The price of the logs (seasoned pine) was $17 a tonne plus trucking ($5000 that I got stuck with).

I did 2 weeks(15 days. went and looked at the billing app I use 158.4 hours) of sawing 3x12x12, 6x6x12,16, 4x6x12,16, 6x8x10, 2x6x12,16, 2x8x12,16, 2x12x12,16 and all the wind slabs loaded directly onto 34 foot goose neck trailers right off the mill, that I got paid $2000 of $11880 owed (hour rate was $75 at the time).

3 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs. I sawed trough just over a 1/3 of the logs (60 ish tonne) on site. (went back and looked at the cut/banded lumber list and there were 3.5 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs for a total of 5 loads)

I Did sell all the flitches/first cut stuff for fire wood for 1800 bucks so I guess I am out about 10,080. 

I went back and checked my job log book and the numbers are all out of there now instead of off the top of my head.

[JohnM]

Hey banjo!
No I'm not. The price of the logs (seasoned pine) was $17 a tonne plus trucking ($5000 that I got stuck with).

I did 2 weeks(15 days. went and looked at the billing app I use 158.4 hours) of sawing 3x12x12, 6x6x12,16, 4x6x12,16, 6x8x10, 2x6x12,16, 2x8x12,16, 2x12x12,16 and all the wind slabs loaded directly onto 34 foot goose neck trailers right off the mill, that I got paid $2000 of $11880 owed (hour rate was $75 at the time).

3 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs. I sawed trough just over a 1/3 of the logs (60 ish tonne) on site. (went back and looked at the cut/banded lumber list and there were 3.5 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs for a total of 5 loads)

I Did sell all the flitches/first cut stuff for fire wood for 1800 bucks so I guess I am out about 10,080. 

I went back and checked my job log book and the numbers are all out of there now instead of off the top of my head.

BB, can you explain 'wind slab'?  Haven't heard that before...I don't think... :-\

[Bandmill Bandit]

Hey banjo!
No I'm not. The price of the logs (seasoned pine) was $17 a tonne plus trucking ($5000 that I got stuck with).

I did 2 weeks(15 days. went and looked at the billing app I use 158.4 hours) of sawing 3x12x12, 6x6x12,16, 4x6x12,16, 6x8x10, 2x6x12,16, 2x8x12,16, 2x12x12,16 and all the wind slabs loaded directly onto 34 foot goose neck trailers right off the mill, that I got paid $2000 of $11880 owed (hour rate was $75 at the time).

3 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs. I sawed trough just over a 1/3 of the logs (60 ish tonne) on site. (went back and looked at the cut/banded lumber list and there were 3.5 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs for a total of 5 loads)

I Did sell all the flitches/first cut stuff for fire wood for 1800 bucks so I guess I am out about 10,080. 

I went back and checked my job log book and the numbers are all out of there now instead of off the top of my head.

BB, can you explain 'wind slab'?  Haven't heard that before...I don't think... :-\

Yup I can will get out and get a Pic of how they are used too.
Better yet heres a Saskatchewan Ag extension website that has all the data and research in how to use them and how to build them for different purposes.

http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=adb8ecee-7d31-4f72-8d83-c71ac97baba4

We live in cattle country and we have pretty nasty winds at various times of the year.

lengths vary from 6 footers to 12 footer 2nd cut slabs depending on application. Any thing over 4" up to about 12 is good. Farm wives are getting a bit fussy and are wanting them to look nice too. I tend to separate into 4 to 6 and 8 to 10 in and put edge on them just enough to give 2 relative straight edges. I even get calls for for 1x6 or 1x8 clean with nor more the 10 percent wane. I haven't cut a lot this year but the demand is starting to come now. Last UFA price I heard was around 325 a cord and up. Last year they were just under 200.   

[JohnM]

Hey banjo!
No I'm not. The price of the logs (seasoned pine) was $17 a tonne plus trucking ($5000 that I got stuck with).

I did 2 weeks(15 days. went and looked at the billing app I use 158.4 hours) of sawing 3x12x12, 6x6x12,16, 4x6x12,16, 6x8x10, 2x6x12,16, 2x8x12,16, 2x12x12,16 and all the wind slabs loaded directly onto 34 foot goose neck trailers right off the mill, that I got paid $2000 of $11880 owed (hour rate was $75 at the time).

3 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs. I sawed trough just over a 1/3 of the logs (60 ish tonne) on site. (went back and looked at the cut/banded lumber list and there were 3.5 loads of good lumber and 1.5 loads of wind slabs for a total of 5 loads)

I Did sell all the flitches/first cut stuff for fire wood for 1800 bucks so I guess I am out about 10,080. 

I went back and checked my job log book and the numbers are all out of there now instead of off the top of my head.

BB, can you explain 'wind slab'?  Haven't heard that before...I don't think... :-\

Yup I can will get out and get a Pic of how they are used too.
Better yet heres a Saskatchewan Ag extension website that has all the data and research in how to use them and how to build them for different purposes.

http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=adb8ecee-7d31-4f72-8d83-c71ac97baba4

We live in cattle country and we have pretty nasty winds at various times of the year.

lengths vary from 6 footers to 12 footer 2nd cut slabs depending on application. Any thing over 4" up to about 12 is good. Farm wives are getting a bit fussy and are wanting them to look nice too. I tend to separate into 4 to 6 and 8 to 10 in and put edge on them just enough to give 2 relative straight edges. I even get calls for for 1x6 or 1x8 clean with nor more the 10 percent wane. I haven't cut a lot this year but the demand is starting to come now. Last UFA price I heard was around 325 a cord and up. Last year they were just under 200.

I see, thank you.  Figured it was something to that effect.  Great use of 'poor' (second cut, 'waste', etc) quality wood.  Glad I don't have a use for those wind breaks here though, I hate wind. >:( ;D

[giant splinter]

This post is a very interesting view into what most of us go through when trying to set up a fair pricing structure for charging customers for what we love doing with our sawmills, onsite or in our own yard.
During the course of reading through all the posts I can find a huge variation in pricing and the reasons why the cost differentials.
All of our costs are going to be different and this may never change in the overall scope of things as most of us do things slightly differently and have all got equipment variations that we employ, different methods and different ideas of how we need to get things done.
Here is a method of billing that has been touched on but does not seem very popular, let me say first off that in order to get this to work properly you must have a solid agreement with your customer as far as off bearing and all conditions regarding the site prep and log deck so that it runs smooth and productivity is at its optimum. I find that this system works best in your own yard on your own time schedule and requires a cutting list up front, with a locked in tight up front agreement as for as what your cutting and how they want it prepped when the customer comes to pick it up such as lift configuration, specific sizing and length as well as lumber unit specifics such as ( Roof Load ) or ( Floor Joists and Blocking ) and lift banding to keep things in order. These extras add up fast and are a nice way to make some extra money if the customer wants it done.
The method of billing for the milling process is nothing new in the construction industry and is very common in the concrete cutting, sawing and breaking end of things. the majority of concrete cutting is quoted using a price structure that is known as the "inch/foot billing system" some of you may be familiar with it. The basis for this system is that the diamond segmented saw blades wear out in a predictable manner and need to be kept very close track of through the coarse of their service life. The blades used in Concrete flat sawing and wall sawing as well as the core bits used for drilling in concrete are very expensive .... to the point, the average 14" blade for flat sawing can cost more than two boxes of 15 bandsaw blades.
The method of billing is for every inch of depth and foot in length that your blade is in the cut to are billing for, E.G. if you cut a pass through concrete 
that is 4" in depth and 10' in length yo have effectively cut 40 inch feet and will be billing accordingly. The difference in our application when cutting wood is we would apply the width of the cut or pass and the length of the log .... or 4" wide and 10' long // 40"/' , I do not know of a more accurate method of keeping track of cutting expenses even though with band and circular blades we are dealing with cutting equipment that is re-sharpenable I think you see the advantages of this system and how it could be applied to milling lumber. not so conventional but may be applicable, in any case it is something to consider and it at least adds to some of the confusion of how to charge for milling ;D.

[FarmingSawyer]

I sawed some really rough looking old cherry at my place today for a fella who brought it down to me in his pick-up. I charged by the hour as most of the logs were under 6ft and nothing bigger than 8". DanG if the stuff didn't clean up really nice. The hourly rate made me feel like I could give him the best out of each log and made it easier to feel comfortable sawing for grade. Charging by the hour also kept me clipping along. The customer was pleased as punch to get these logs, which other sawyers had refused to cut, finally sawn and see what beauty was hidden beyond the duffy exterior...... I charged $45/hr and felt like the 2+ hrs and effort I put into it was very much worth every penny. I was just sawing with the mill, and didn't have to do anything extra, and my commute was 1 minute......

Later on in the day I quoted $65/hr for a very custom job, including snaking the mill into a tight spot and rigging up a snatch block system for yarding a log out which is stuck behind a garage in very tight quarters. The job is in a pristine yard, in the upscale end of town. I will most likely do all the work myself, including clearing up all the sawdust and slabs and stacking the lumber. There are only 3 logs...... If I don't get this job no biggie....There was a larger maple which I would have loved to cut, but the owner paid an excavator to haul it to a mill and then never saw the material...... I bet the excavator got paid more than $65 / hour for his work...... I think I'll be right at my minimum charge, but if I had told the owner it was going to cost him $350 to get those logs milled he would have flinched.....Instead I said it would all be done and cleared up in 6 or 7 hours.....and it might be a scramble at that. I'm waiting on a cut list..... The job is less than 8 miles from home and I waived my set-up fee because the clock starts when I pull in the driveway.....and here I'm being paid more for my logging and property maintenance skills than for the 45 min it'll take me to mill those logs up.

I'm finding flexibility and a willingness to do the odd jobs and stuff the other local sawyers won't do, for a price, is getting me some very interesting work.....

I got this job from a landscaper who drove by my last neighborhood milling job.....

[Okrafarmer]

When you can do what no one else can or will do, you will make it. My cousin, with his little manual mill that has paid for itself many times over, told me he was charging .25 / bf or $25 / hr. for his services. I told him, look, you can do better than that. The price of gas has gone up-- there's been inflation on everything since you began-- I suggest you raise your rates a little, at least to .30 and $30. You set your price with the big commercial sawmills, and you can never out produce them. All your customers come to you, cousin, because you do things the big mills will never do, and you do it with a smile and personal attention. I bet if you give all your customers fair warning, they will accept your price increase when you explain that you had to do it for inflation. They don't come to you because of your price-- they come to you because of what you do and how you do it, and who you are. AND-- if any of your old customers just can't accept your new price-- there's nothing stopping you from making an exception to keep an old customer. He thought about it and took my advice.

[Peter Drouin]

I sawed some really rough looking old cherry at my place today for a fella who brought it down to me in his pick-up. I charged by the hour as most of the logs were under 6ft and nothing bigger than 8". DanG if the stuff didn't clean up really nice. The hourly rate made me feel like I could give him the best out of each log and made it easier to feel comfortable sawing for grade. Charging by the hour also kept me clipping along. The customer was pleased as punch to get these logs, which other sawyers had refused to cut, finally sawn and see what beauty was hidden beyond the duffy exterior...... I charged $45/hr and felt like the 2+ hrs and effort I put into it was very much worth every penny. I was just sawing with the mill, and didn't have to do anything extra, and my commute was 1 minute......

Later on in the day I quoted $65/hr for a very custom job, including snaking the mill into a tight spot and rigging up a snatch block system for yarding a log out which is stuck behind a garage in very tight quarters. The job is in a pristine yard, in the upscale end of town. I will most likely do all the work myself, including clearing up all the sawdust and slabs and stacking the lumber. There are only 3 logs...... If I don't get this job no biggie....There was a larger maple which I would have loved to cut, but the owner paid an excavator to haul it to a mill and then never saw the material...... I bet the excavator got paid more than $65 / hour for his work...... I think I'll be right at my minimum charge, but if I had told the owner it was going to cost him $350 to get those logs milled he would have flinched.....Instead I said it would all be done and cleared up in 6 or 7 hours.....and it might be a scramble at that. I'm waiting on a cut list..... The job is less than 8 miles from home and I waived my set-up fee because the clock starts when I pull in the driveway.....and here I'm being paid more for my logging and property maintenance skills than for the 45 min it'll take me to mill those logs up.

I'm finding flexibility and a willingness to do the odd jobs and stuff the other local sawyers won't do, for a price, is getting me some very interesting work.....

I got this job from a landscaper who drove by my last neighborhood milling job.....

You're on the right track. Get a customer base going, you can raise your $ later.