Fair sawlog/ veneer grading

[madmari]

 Over the past year, I've shipped some beautiful hardwood to mills only to be  frustrated with the scaling and grading on the mill slip.
  I've been very careful to buck the logs for grade and follow the specs from the individual mills. I even had a veneer buyer come to my landing and explain what defects are allowed and what will deduct. He looked the logs over, said they looked perfect, marked them with a "V". At the mill I shipped those very logs, they are graded down to rediculous sums that make me regret even cutting the trees. What gives?
  Some very nice cherry and maple have been sent and I have never recieved a veneer check. I don't want to falsely accuse, however I am sure these logs are not being used to make really nice pallets. If this continues, I am going to deliver  gun-barrel firewood that splits VERY well. 

  Any help would be  surely appreciated.

[beenthere]

Likely a buyers market and the mill (s) not looking for wood.
Likely they don't have a market for their products either. Just guessin.

[madmari]

They are looking for maple in a big way.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Veneer is a slippery slope. One day I will buy a log for veneer and then the next the same log is just a sawlog. It all depends on the market and what not. Sometimes I am allowed to buy 3k feet of Maple veneer with 70% heart and once that 3k is bought my spec goes back to 25% heartwood or whatever it may be. Sometimes we are desperate for veneer for filler of plywood so we will start buying some of the better #1 and #2 sawlogs as a low grade veneer but once we have enough then they are just sawlogs. Sometimes what I am allowed to buy for veneer has changed 3 times in a day.

When I look at a log on a landing and put a V on it that means today it is a possible veneer. If it arrives at the log yard 3 days later it might be a sawlog. Also depending on how logs are laid out in the woods it is tough to see the bumps, swells, bark T's, etc.

[Frickman]

They just didn't need the wood. The only species in demand in my parts right now is hard maple. The place I've been hauling red oak and tulip poplar to for years basically cut me off last week. They've never done that in twenty plus years. They've always cut off other guys but never me. They just can't sell the lumber. Even cherry isn't moving for them. They'll buy every stick of blocking wood they can find, just not much grade. In order to keep me in business they've offered me a contract logging job on some timber they bought about three miles from home. They would sooner keep me going than someone else.

If I have large quantity of high-grade logs they are sold, and sometimes paid for, right on the landing. Or maybe at my yard. I do have places I take ungraded logs and pick up a check on Friday, but that is just for run of the woods logs, not for something special. It sometimes suprises me what variation in offer price I get for some wood.

[madmari]

I guess that's where I'm headed. If I can find a buyer looking for high grade logs, and they are willing to grade and pay for them on the landing then that's who'll get them. Maybe LL firewood can keep me going for now....

[Ron Wenrich]

Did you sell logs to the veneer buyer who came out to your landing?  Loggers make money in marketing.  That means you would send some logs to one mill and others to another.  We even sell to different veneer buyers.  But, right now markets are tight.  We've been cutting firewood and letting the sawtimber stand until markets stiffen up.

[madmari]

Some of these cuts are time crucial ( 3-4 acre clearcuts) where the trees gotta go. Lately I find landowners that are desperate to get any financial help they can. That means cutting timber if there is no other choice. Of course I market the wood where I think it will pay best as it pays me and the landowner.
  You are correct in the firewood department. It pays the bills, but I do like to discover nice wood!

[T Welsh]

During and after the recession, the market has dropped 30 to 50% here in PA. marketing is your only recourse, to make sure you get every penny. like Ron said, we are cutting firewood and leaving the saw timber stand. its so bad, that I have even quartered saw logs on the mill to run through the processor. it goes against every grain in my body to do this,but its profitable. Tim

[timbuck2]

I'll assume you're taking logs in to a broker?   TRW, "where veneer turns into pallet overnight"!   I've had better luck with Dillon, if you have enough volume I would try Champeau (spelling ?) in Quebec, direct to mill.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what the others have said concerning the grade logs and veneer market. The demand isn't there, so the fair product price isn't being paid. Best not to harvest the quality trees until their is serious demand.

[240b]

Selling wood in the champlain valley is tough.  The markets down towards Bristol are horrible. The last time I worked in the valley I shipped my wood the the eastern side of the state. the increased cost of trking was not even an issue.  Forget the contract logging all your doing is wearing out the equipment, your time is better spent
looking at wood and repair stuff.   If your clearing lots well thats the way it is, cut it down..

[madmari]

Just got a log check from Bristol for some real prime ash- (yes, I spelled it right ;D). Averages $200 mbf. Gotta pay the stumpage and trucking from that. I wish I'd have put the logs into cordwood- would have saved gas  bucking, too.
   I really enjoy working in the woods; get alot of satisfaction from cutting nice logs. But these advertised prices from the mills and the paid prices are in a way, fruadulent. In the case of the ash logs, above, I followed the mill specs to the letter for prime grade advertised at $400 mbf. I was payed two grades lower. There is no sense complaining , that will go nowhere. Will I send them anymore logs? No.
I used a log broker before, sent pine to Quebec. Trucker said there was over 7 mbf on the truck when it left my landing. Got a mill slip for 4500 bf ! Maybe the trucker didn't secure the load? Who stole the logs?

  Very frustrating. Hope I get over it, but working this hard to watch the financial future of my business slip away is getting hard to bear.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Have you talked to the guy who scaled your logs? Will he let you scale/grade a load with him?

I always welcome my suppliers to go through the loads with me when possible. When there are any questions on scale or grade I am more than happy to address them. Helps them know why I'm scaling and grading the way I am and also lets them know that I'm not trying to screw them. It also lets them know just what I'm looking for.

[madmari]

Done that. Studied the hardwood utilization bucking standards to the point that my wife calls it "log porn" and that I should seek therapy to overcome the addiction and met with scalers to garner more info. I realize you can't make a bad log good, but you can make a good log bad. Those go elsewhere. But prime lumber- dime sized , centered hearts on 16" hard maple with no defects should command a fair grade and scale.
  I am not accusing scalers or mills of cheating. I would just like the advertised prices on log sheets to be true and accurate. I can make the decision then to cut or not to cut.
   240B- I'll heed your advice and try log yards to the east. Gotta beat what's happening here.

[BaldBob]

/quote]

I'll bet its been over 40 years since I saw a legal over-the highway load that went over 7mbf, and those were usually 3 log loads on trucks that went 40 tons GVW. How did your trucker determine that he was carrying over 7mbf?  4500bf is a normal load size for today's average sized logs. Much over 5000mbf/load is somewhat uncommon, though it was not uncommon to see loads that went up to 6500bf of bone dry beetle killed Lodgepole pine being hauled following bark beetle outbreaks. But those loads were usually pushing  (and sometimes exceeding) legal height limits.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its a hard time to sell logs.  But, its also a hard time to sell lumber.  Defects that used to go into lumber just won't go anymore.  The wholesalers have stiffened up on the grade.  That means the mills will stiffen the grade on the logs.  It also means the logger has to stiffen his grade on the stumpage end.  Mills will always keep their prices inflated.  That's what brings you in the door. 

Are you selling veneer quality logs to a mill?  That's just asking for a disaster.  We separate our veneer, sometimes on the landing.  We let the veneer buyers come in and buy what they want.  We use several buyers.  What they don't want goes to the mill.  I do know that there are nicer logs coming through the mill, which tells me the veneer buyers are being more picky.  Back when demand was high, I'd rarely see a decent log come into the mill unless there was metal in it. 

[madmari]

Thanks- I'll sort the veneer and try that.

[tjdub]

Thanks- I'll sort the veneer and try that.

It never hurts to try to get sealed bids on those veneer logs.  If you can get a few veneer buyers out there to make a bid on those logs at the landing, you can't go wrong.  However, if you don't have many logs and/or don't have many buyers nearby, you may not be able to drum up enough interest.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I've never seen any sealed bids for logs by either mills or veneer buyers in my area.  Buyers basically tell you their price, and you let them go through a load.  If it seems like a good scale and grade, then you sell it.  We lay all our logs out so they can see them real well.  If their price isn't any good, then we move on to the next buyer.  Logs are plentiful, so they won't bid on any logs.  Simply move on to the next seller.

During the really good times for ash logs the old guy running the operations would bring in a buyer and tell them they could have any log they wanted at $4/bf.  After the first guy went through, they would bring in the next buyer and tell them anything at $3.50/bf.  They did that until the veneer was gone, then took the rest to a handle plant.  They only got away with that for a few years until the market went away.  You can't do that in this market.

[240b]

The hard fact is you will never win dealing with the mills.  Look,  at what other industry does the buyer tell the seller both the value and the volume?  I pretty much have come to the conclusion that if your selling wood, unless its by the ton your gonna lose. Those local mills didn't get where they are by being fair. One forester over there told me my problem was, my expectations in life were to high- to be a logger.  Best just to consider that every tree is just firewood when buying timber..

[SwampDonkey]

When we sold veneer and saw log hardwood, there was none of this moving the prices business without notice. The Columbia FP veneer buyer came and scaled and stamped the logs with a bar code and even paid the trucking. He might not even get those logs for 2 or 3 weeks. The sawlog mills paid what they said they was gonna pay when it landed at the mill yard. Loggers on the ball always called the marketing board to keep abreast with prices. From what you guys are describing, sounds like someone is brokering wood and not buying for their mill. Sounds like the wild west days south of the border. :D

[chevytaHOE5674]

I put sealed bids in on plenty of Veneer. Many loggers will take the good veneer back to their yards and lay them out nicely on timbers or pulpwood so that they are up off the ground and have good lighting. Then they let buyers come in and bid on them for a few days. Then you get to find out if you got them out not. Sometimes they are sold in lots so winner buys them all for one money, and sometimes it is done on an individual log basis. 

[SwampDonkey]

Our Columbia man came to the woods and the trucker worked with us all and he even went to some spots for 2 or 3 logs. The marketing board staff usually came to roll and buck logs for grade with the buyer. It kind of makes the loggers and woodlot owners a bit lazy on the sawlog and veneer end when it's free. ;)

[madmari]

The firewood market is good and we can pull alot of it. Makes sense, but then the landowner loses.
I had a log broker tell me to get on the maple, the mills are yelling for it. Well, they aren't yelling loud enough. We are a small operation that won't make a big mill any difference, but I'm not selling anymore sawlogs until a fair price is willing to be paid. If there is no demand for lumber, why are the mills yelling for logs? Because someone is making a fortune on the backs of loggers, truckers and landowners.
  I saw the retail  lumber price sheet at the mill I sold my last logs to. Sawing is VERY lucrative when your cost of goods is  so small.

  Dairy farmers are in the same boat. They'll dump their milk in the gutter before selling for a rediculously low price. Hurts to do, but sawlogs on the firewood pile is the same thing.

[beenthere]

I had a log broker tell me to get on the maple, the mills are yelling for it.

Exactly what a log broker would want to say....as he makes money off you by buying low and selling high.

Reading the tales here of past veneer buying were interesting, but in the past there were some great markets for veneer logs. Some to China, some to Europe, and even some needed in the US. Now those markets are way down so the veneer buying game changes big time. What used to work doesn't work that way now.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Because someone is making a fortune on the backs of loggers, truckers and landowners....I saw the retail  lumber price sheet at the mill I sold my last logs to. Sawing is VERY lucrative

I highly doubt sawing is "very lucrative" right now. If it was I doubt that so many mills would be going out of business or on the verge. The mill I buy for is hanging on by the skin of their teeth. The only lumber markets that are really moving decently "here" are the low grade and the pallet stock. And that lumber mainly comes from the low grade logs. Around here nobody is making a fortune in the woods business, not the landowner, logger, sawmill, and so on down the road. 

[Ed_K]

Got a letter yesterday from a mill I sell to.They talked about how Vt was starting to come back from the great huricane and they had lots of damage.All good now so they are looking for hardwood and w/pine.buy all I got.Oh well,I 'm still cutting hemlock.

[SwampDonkey]

Buy all you got, but what is the price? Experience here is the price falls, but they are good guys for taking it before it rots.  ;)

[madmari]

It comes out of the woods free, and the labor is really fun, the landowner is happy to see his prized trees leave, so what's the harm !

[bkellyvtme]

They are looking for maple in a big way.

I think I know who you are talking about. Are they off from rte 139, and the forester drives a VW Bettle??