Eastern Red Cedar

[WDH]

 :D :D :D :D

Now, that is funny!

[deadfall]

A yawl is a two masted sailing vessel.

There's gotta be a ketch here somewhere. 

[Cedarman]

I was going to say something serious about ERC and WRC, but it looks like I missed my chance.  Y'all, Yawl, Yowl!

[Magicman]

I was going to say something serious about ERC and WRC, but it looks like I missed my chance.

You may still have a chance because the thread has not made it to food or Grits yet.   

[bkaimwood]

I agree with all that's been said regarding eastern red cedar here, and have ton a lot of reading and research to properly answer customer questions in these areas properly. The good cedar is out west, western red cedar of course... Eastern is insect resistant to a point, somewhat decay resistant...but will last no where near as long as black locust, as a previous poster mentioned is choice in the northeast... Only problem with it is, you either have lots or none. White oak will last longer than ERC, and is great for raised gardens. Best bet is boards with ERC...

[4x4American]

I agree with all that's been said regarding eastern red cedar here, and have ton a lot of reading and research to properly answer customer questions in these areas properly. The good cedar is out west, western red cedar of course... Eastern is insect resistant to a point, somewhat decay resistant...but will last no where near as long as black locust, as a previous poster mentioned is choice in the northeast... Only problem with it is, you either have lots or none. White oak will last longer than ERC, and is great for raised gardens. Best bet is boards with ERC...

are you saying that white oak will last longer in the ground than erc?

What about our white cedar?  In the adks there is mainly white cedar, rare to see erc.

[deadfall]

...and then there's white oak and there's white oak.  Our Oregon white oak isn't your white oak back thar.  Wish it was.

[4x4American]

thats right

[Banjo picker]

I would very interested in what you have serious to say about cedar, Cedarman.  Esp.the eastern variety.  Banjo

[bkaimwood]

I personally would put white oak in the ground here over ERC any day of the week...a few property owners around here do, lasts a LONG time.. Our eastern oaks are great, your western cedar is great...

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

I saw a lot of erc. It is one of my favorites just for the ease of cutting and the ability to sell it fast. It has been my understanding that the sapwood rots away and the heart will remain for a long time. any truth to this? 4/4 is my usual go to but in the spring I cut 6/4 and make stakes out of edgings as raised bed kits. They are gone before the saw dust settles. People really like the color and if clear coated it will remain for a long time. jmtc...Brian

[deadfall]

Is there any species where the sapwood does not rot faster than the heartwood?

I don't mind expounding on western red cedar, having a bit of experience, both on my own, and having worked in a WRC shingle mill.  The sapwood rots fast.  But, so does what y'alls back thar call, "the pith."  Every old growth cedar pretty much has no center.  The fast growing heart rots.  Any idea of using the center wood from a second growth WRC as a fence post is like urinating into the breeze. 

When I ran the deck at the shingle mill, my job was to buck and split it and send it down the chain to the bolterman.  The bolterman (in a death-defying dance of moving the blocks on a moving table {moved with his knees}, into a stationary 48" circle blade) would cut away all the sapwood and the center heartwood, as well as any checks I had missed.  It was exciting for him when a block came apart in his hands while doing this.

So, our best wood here is all old growth, and I hear they ain't planting anymore of that.

[beenthere]

 

So, our best wood here is all old growth, and I hear they ain't planting anymore of that.

Not planting western red cedar?   

[deadfall]

Not planting old growth.  It has always been a brain bender to me to think that anyone could have claimed to own an old growth tree or forest.  If they do, it is possession of stolen property or was gotten by way of some form of fraud. 

Aside from that, very little WRC is being planted by any except small private land owners.  The big kids plant D. fir and W. hemlock, and we wipe our butts with a lot of it.

Who planted this tree that I can see from where I sit, and you see me standing by?  It will not likely survive another year. (That's a Douglas fir behind me and a western red cedar to my left.)

Here's the immediate problem: they are worth more dead than alive (to someone).

[Magicman]

Termites will eat White Oak that is in contact with the ground here in Mississippi.  Not so with heart ERC.

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks for all the input. I haven't even had time to look at the pile yet. There will be more cedar harvested at this site, and I hope to have a better idea of how to advise the cutting crew.

[bkaimwood]

Around here, seems carpenter ants ruin posts at ground level first...I'm fortunate,  or unfortunate to be not old enough to testify...just saying what the locals say...

[YellowHammer]

Termites will eat White Oak that is in contact with the ground here in Mississippi.  Not so with heart ERC.

True here also.  Here's my personal experience.  Several years ago, I had to redo the fences in our farm, about 3 1/4 miles worth, so we had a lot of posts to deal with.  The previous farmers had installed the fence many decades ago, using ERC logs for line posts every hundred feet, and metal T posts every 10 feet.  The old barb wire was rusted out, and many of the metal T posts had literally rusted in two at ground level, so had to be replaced.   I don't know how long it takes for that to happen, but it's got to be a long time.  Interestingly enough, many of the ERC line posts were still serviceable and would take fencing stables. 
We replaced the fence about a decade ago, using a mix of fresh sawn ERC posts and creosote poles.  The ERC posts I installed still look great and the original ones are still standing also. 

[xlogger]

Here in NC I used ERC for my fence posts and white oak for my boards a few years back and everything looks good now but for a few white oak boards with knots bowing and cracking. I have cedar posts in ground at my old place that we planted for fence posts over 50 yo now still there.

[Cedarman]

In 1980  I built a good bit of fence.  We used ERC posts, some 1/4, some 1/2, some round.  Several years ago, one fence was not needed as I had sold all of the "moofers".   I pulled several posts and cross cut sections near the bottom, at ground level and a foot up the post and near the top.  Near the bottom still had some sapwood that was sound.  It appears this was in water logged soil at about 2 1/2' deep.  Very discolored, and good sound heartwood.  At ground level all sapwood was gone on all the posts. But the heartwood was bright and still sound.    At one foot up, most sapwood gone, heartwood sound.  Near top of post, some sapwood sound.  Mostly on split post where the bark was gone very early in the posts life.  Round posts that kept bark on showed a good bit of sapwood deterioration, but still some sound sapwood.  A few posts showed evidence of termites working the sapwood.
Where I grew up in north central Indiana, all the post were squared cedar and they were tapered.   I know some of those posts were functional after 80 to 90 years.  I suspect the posts came from old growth cedar that was densely red heartwood.
My experience says do not use posts from tops of cedar trees as these usually have wide sap ring.  Also do not use post that have a fair amount of white intermingled with the heartwood.  i have seen cedar where there were sapwood rings in the heartwood.  Sometimes those rings were rotten and in a few cases all the material was gone, leaving a "tree inside of a tree".
For fence posts we grade out and only sell those with minimum sapwood.  5/8" or less sapwood.

[sandsawmill14]

my experience with cedar fence post are just what cedarman described but because of my age about 30 yrs is as far as i can be sure of age on. 

[Banjo picker]

Thanks for the post Cedarman.  I don't have any cedar on my place that is big enough to make even a decent log.  I have to scrounge mine from where ever I can find it.  Banjo

[4x4American]

I go to this guys sawmill every so often, and he always has piles of pecker pole cedars and i ask him is it really worth the time to get what little you can out of them pecker poles?  he says it pays to get 3- 2x4s outta one small log to help fill an order than it is to saw a bigger log.  I thought he was crazy but hey if there's a buck in it I guess why not

[Cedarman]

4x4x8'   $14.00.  Cost of 6" log x8' is $4.95    Takes us less than a minute on the scragg.  Can easily do 1 on a WM in about 4 or 5 minutes.  That is about 2 bucks a minute gross profit over cost of log.  All about margin.

[4x4American]

By golly it makes sense on paper!