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Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?

Started by Greg Cook, October 24, 2006, 08:01:13 PM

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Greg Cook

I'd like to hear from TimberKing owners (and former owners) any reasons I should NOT buy a TimberKing.  I've been looking at Woodmizers pretty hard, but thought I'd check on the TK's just to be sure of what I wanted in a mill (like dating before you marry! ) I've got the info from TK, seen the DVD, but want to hear from you guys or girls what you don't like or would change about your mills.  If you changed over, what brand did you change to and why?  Looks like a pretty decent mill, but I'd rather hear the voice of EXPERIENCE than a sales video.  Thanks for your help.
"Ain't it GOOD to be alive and be in TENNESSEE!" Charlie Daniels

Bibbyman

Pretty brutal question. 

I doubt if you'll find any TK owner that's not happy with his mill or the company – unless they are ready to trade up to a larger mill with more features.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

red

I think we need to know what models you at thinking about

how much you will be using the machine

what kind of wood you will be sawing   

and if you have already seen the machines in action

just for starters   :D

or how about Baker, norwood,D&L,Lucas and of course Peterson 
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

SawDust_Studios

Sounds like you are answering your own questions..  If you've looked at woodmizers hard, why are you not buying one?  Did you find something you didn't like about them?  Do you feel there is a big price difference?   I'm sure most timberking owners are please with their purchase. 

Is there a specific model you are looking at?
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

Greg Cook

Hey guys, thanks for those quick responses.  Bibby, not trying to be tough on anybody's rig, but if there's a weak point or just something that could use tweaking, you folks on here are bound to have found it.  I can see the obvious differences between TK's and those nice orange WM's but what about little differences?  WM's are still cantilevered for a reason, but physics tells me that being supported on both sides of the head is a good idea.  'Course, I could add a seat to a 'Mizer and more than offset the motor ;D.  Really though, I think either would serve my purpose...just want to be fully informed before dropping that kind of cash ($12K to $16K)

When I first started thinking about a mill, it was going to be pretty much personal use, but hanging around here has given me an itch that needs scratching.  Wifey also thinks it would be fun work to do some sawing for the public.  She watched the TK video with me, and seeing their basic mill has a hand crank to feed the sawhead, she wanted to know wouldn't it be better to pay the extra for the auto-feed. Of course, I had to agree with her (wives are often right when they agree with their husbands). 

Most of my inital sawing will be ERC, but lately I've been looking at the trees that need culling, wondering what I could use them for.  I do have a 30" cherry laying out here waiting for me to buy a saw. :)

Also, Mr. Bibby, your comment means a lot, froma diehard Orange-man such as yourself.  Thanks again
"Ain't it GOOD to be alive and be in TENNESSEE!" Charlie Daniels

treecyclers

As the proud papa of a TK B1600 that has ALL the bells and whistles available, I will admit that I am very pleased with my purchase, and will add to that the caveat that I am ready for the B20.
I have the full hydraulics package, with makes life easy when loading logs.
I also have the log turner setup.
Pros of the unit are that the price was great for the capabilities, it cuts great, easy to tune, the mechanics of milling are pretty easy to master (less than 500 boardfeet into owning it I was buzzing like a champ or chimp, depending on who you talk to), and have had only one issue with it which was my own DanG fault for not dogging the log securely, and I bent the snot out of one of hte guide rollers.
Cons to it are that, when i have honker logs on it (really big ones), the turner contraption sucks. It works on a pipe that is a little weak for the duty I subject it to, but I have a forklift that I use when necessary to turn the really big logs.
I might even suggest kicking the motor up a few horses, say to a 45 horse or so, as the hydraulics and blade run off the same power drive unit, which bleeds off some of the power for cutting into moving the head down the rails.
It paid for itself in less than 2 years, which was pretty remarkable, being that I live in something of a desert.
The underlying question is, "Would you do it again knowing what you know now?"
The answer is a resounding YES!
With all it's pros and cons, it's a fantastic mill, and I exceed it's capabilities as a matter of course in what I do, which I didn't anticipate in the first place, so in that it's my underestimation of what I really needed in the first place.
I will either be trading it in for a B20, or selling it off outright in the next couple months and getting my B20 in the spring.
Either way, it works for me, and if you're seriously interested in a 1600, message me directly, and we can talk.
Have a fantastic day!
SD
I wake up in the morning, and hear the trees calling for me...come make us into lumber!

Bibbyman

Quote from: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 11:09:22 PM
WM's are still cantilevered for a reason, but physics tells me that being supported on both sides of the head is a good idea.  'Course, I could add a seat to a 'Mizer and more than offset the motor ;D.

Also, Mr. Bibby, your comment means a lot, froma diehard Orange-man such as yourself.  Thanks again

Yes,  I'm THE number one fan of Wood-Mizer – even if Arky thinks he is sometimes.  So indulge me this one comment about the cantilever head debate. :D

As for the cantilever head design,  for every salesman that tells you it's a bad idea,  you'll find a thousand Wood-Mizer owners that'll show you that it does work and why it works well.  The lobby of the Wood-Mizer home office in Indy is plastered with names of owners with over one million board feet sawn.





Another suggestion – You may be able to buy a nice used mill with more features and power that would be in your price range.  The tradeoff would be no warrantee and you'd likely start to incur some additional maintenance expenses like belts and other wear items.



Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

fstedy

The TK is a fine machine and has done very well for me. I run the B 20 and comparing apples to apples will cut with any of the popular mills. A lot depends just what you get used to running and how well you adapt your sawing technique to a particular mill. I think the cantilever versus 4 post mills is a moot point they both cut very accurate lumber and at a good production rate once you get comfortable with the mill you kind of develop a rythm when you are cutting. I admit WM has some great features ( automated dog can also be used to turn the log and the powered blade guide) but you will pay for those features. TK has recently added some of those goodies, but only to the big TK 2400 mill, that I know of. Many like the open side on the WM they say its easier to off load and being able to cut odd size logs. As far as offloading you learn to use what you have. As far as the odd size logs you still have to get them thru the throat of the sawhead. New or used TK, WM, Baker  and others are good machines. If your looking for a good buy I would say a used TK is you way to go( I bought mine with 32 hours and saved 6K off new price ). If you'll be using the mill to make a living then the added features of the WM are a plus. In the end you have to sort it all out and make a decision based on your situation. Good luck in your choosing.
Timberking B-20   Retired and enjoying every minute of it.
Former occupations Electrical Lineman, Airline Pilot, Owner operator of Machine Shop, Slot Machine Technician and Sawmill Operator.
I know its a long story!!!

SawDust_Studios

This debate is so similar to what we here around here every week.  What's the difference between a John Deere,  a Kubota, and brand X.  Or even Ford, Chevy, or Dodge.  Alot of it is personal preference and what features which companies provide.  I think you'll be happy with either of those mills.  And, its nice that your picking a FF sponser, either way  ;D
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

woodbeard

Hey Greg, it was good to meet you the other day.
One other difference between the TK and WM mills is the operator position.
On the Timberking, the operator stays with the controls at the end of the mill.
On the Woodmizer, you walk ( or ride if you get the seat option ) along with the sawhead, unless you spring for the remote operator station.
When I was making my decision, I was leaning towards the TK arrangement.
After hearing from other folks here, I decided that, since I was going to be working alone most of the time, and running all around the mill anyways, the walk-along idea was probably better for me. The downside is that I have to walk back and forth all the time, over or around the trailer axle on longer logs, getting sprayed by dust and debris from the debarker with the engine roaring in my ear. On the other hand I like being right there, watching the cut and hearing the engine, so I can tell when to slow down or even stop if I notice something ( usually a side post I forgot to lower ::) )
Good ear muffs and goggles deal with the aforementioned hazards, and also tend to keep spectators from bugging me while I'm sawing. :D
As mentioned before, it all comes down to what works for you in your particular situation.

KENROD

  I have the B20, love it. When I bought it I, like you, thought the four post head would be better. Now that I have talked to more WM owners, I don't think there is as much advatage as the TK sales people make it out to be. Bought the only thing I would like to change is to put an electric cluth on the engine pully so I could stop the blade between cuts.

jpgreen

WoodMizer-

High re-sale, superbly engineered and simple, reasonable parts cost, built like a tank, cuts square lumber.

The only thing I don't like about TK is the sales guys need to blow smoke.. Outright missleading statements..  ::)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

tcsmpsi

Yeah, that's my drawback with TK, as well. 

I take it then, jp, that the cantilever design has not been a bane for you?   ;D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Will_Johnson

As usual a lot of good, fair-minded advice here.

I am concerned to hear that some feel that they have received "intentionally misleading" advice from TimberKing. We make a point of NOT going for the "quick and aggressive" sell. Among the tools we have in place are that our sales people are not on commission. They are paid to give courteous answers to questions and try to help folks make a good decisions.

In fact, because we have a 30-Day No-Questions Money-Back Guarantee, if we make a sale based on misleading advice chances are we will get the sawmill back.

That's not to say we aren't biased: we're rightly proud of our products and we're always going to tout what we feel are the strengths of those products. Our competitors feel the same way about their products and they work hard to tout their strengths.

Since I haven't posted for a while I should be clear that folks know my biases: I'm the president of TimberKing.

Jeff

What da ya think of that Greg? If ya need him, ya know where to find him. The TimberKing Head Honcho is here for ya if you need him. Thanks for popping in Will!
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

QuoteInveniemus viam aut faciemus

A saw maker that speaks Latin!

Who woulda' thunk it!

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

LOGDOG

Hi Greg,

  I've had 4 WoodMizers, 1 Logmaster , and now my Peterson ASM mill. I think there is one thing that (in the bandmill arena especially) makes Woodmizer an excellent choice. This is how easy it is to set the machine up, level it, cut square lumber all day long, pull the outriggers up and take off. Everything else being equal, you'll not find an easier machine to level up and keep level. That single beam is so much easier to level than two.

  I have a friend about 10 miles down the road that just bought a bandmill. He didn't want to pay the money for a WoodMizer so he bought a different kind. Twin rail and I'll leave it at that. He called me in frustration after not being able to get the thing to cut nice straight lumber. I took a couple of levels over to his place and spent the better part of a morning leveling his mill up. Part of the reason it took that long was that I had to undo everything he did and start fresh. Even then we used all my shims, and still had a couple lowspots where one of the 4 rollers that the mill rides on was not spinning while moving forward. An obvious sign that the track was not level.

  Point is ...in my worst sawing location, it took me no longer than 15 minutes to be sawing lumber with my any one of my WoodMizers. Say nothing about the time savings, it speaks to the ease of use of the machine. The people at WoodMizer are great. Very knowledgeable. They say what they'll do and do what they say. That's huge.

  Re-sale is also excellent on the WoodMizers. I've had my Peterson for sale for some time now and can't seem to move it. Took me less than a month to sell any of the Mizers. Don't get me wrong ... love my Peterson. Just thought life was taking me a different direction. I've decided now that I'll keep it. If I were to buy a bandmill again though, I guarantee you it would be a WoodMizer. Which by the way I will be ... an LT15 to go with the 4 sections of track I already own for it. Even their LT15 uses a cantilevered head design as I understand in spite of having two rails.

  If possible, get two in the same parking lot or at a show for that matter and time the setup. See what you want to have to go through each time you setup and take down and make your decision. Best of luck with your choice. Oh by the way ...word of caution: That blaze orange is downright addictive! Once you get a taste for it you won't be the same again.  ;)

LOGDOG

Bibbyman

Wow!  4 Wood-Mizers!    :o

I may have to re-think my statement of being THE number one Wood-Mizer fan.  smiley_headscratch

We've only had three Wood-Mizers in the past 12 years and then only two at one time.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

SawDust_Studios

"Wow!  4 Wood-Mizers!"

I'm on my third and I have one of those little LT40 die cast models, does that count?  :D

Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

Chris Burchfield

     I began tracking that orange color from a black and white add, 30 words or less, in the back of a Mechanic's Illustrated(?) 18 years before last July. "Turn your Logs into Lumber." Beginning with the internet about six years ago I was able to find good information on the net about different mills and their applications. TK is a fine piece of equipment, has a respectible position in the market and was in serious consideration. In the long run I went orange with all the horns and whistles including command control. A lot of machine for a man who works alone. Future plans include the potential for adding help should I feel the need. I didn't buy with the intent of buying bigger later. I wanted to buy one machine, spend money, one time, get what I wanted and this one will probably outlive me. I'm 48 yoa. Cantilever design is engineered (by folks much smarter than me) and has multiple applications throughout the world. There are also cantilever sawmills throughout the world.

    I anticipate you'd get the kind of response from any of our sponsors I got yesterday from Woodmizer. The mill was half way through a 20' red oak, 2" drop, 12" wide. The engine choked down (what I thought) like it was running out fuel. I'm 25 miles out from my owner's manual. That would be 50 miles round trip. Called the 1-800 number for tech support. Of course this was during business hours and I used a cell phone from the woods. Both my grand dad's past away not knowing of cell phones. They'd never believed they could have been on the back side of the 40 acres they were plowing with a mule or horse and been able to place a call like that. Wound up a poor connection at the quick connect fuel supply. Remade the connection, pumped the heck out of it and Glenda fired up no problem. Key here is I also suspect I could have received the same response from any of our sponsor's had it been a used piece of their equipment.

     Your using it, your paying for it, you have a head that works. Good luck with your decision.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

woodbeard

QuoteI am concerned to hear that some feel that they have received "intentionally misleading" advice from TimberKing. We make a point of NOT going for the "quick and aggressive" sell.

Will, the main point of contention people seem to have in this regard is the comparison, in TK's advertisements, between the 4 post and "monorail" systems that suggest that the latter of the two makes for a wobbly saw, and a wavy cut. Many folks feel that this in particular is misleading. I'm just trying to clear up this point, as I feel it could be useful feedback for you.
I contacted Timberking several times when I was shopping for a mill, and always found your staff most helpful, professional, and courteous.
Thanks for sponsoring the forum and being available.  :)


LOGDOG

Yep (4) ... had fun with all of them. As Chris noted, support from WoodMizer while in the field is excellent BAR NONE not just looking at sawmill companies - I'm talking any kind of company I've dealt with for anything. As bandmills go they'd be my first choice again. I've flirted with others but in the end always come back to WoodMizer.

The other day while helping my friend with his new "other brand" bandsaw mill I find myself having silent thoughts while running the mill (like we all do with our earplugs in). I kept hearing myself say "I guess that's why WoodMizer does it that way and not this way."

The apache's used to say "there are many ways to get to the same place". I'd say this would accurately describe sawmill design and function. Have to admit though, there is such a thing as a "better mouse trap" and WoodMizer seems to have it on the grand scale. Sales and customer testimonials seem to back that up.

We'll be excited to hear what choice you make Greg. Sounds like you have a supportive wife backing you up too. That's cool. I'm lucky to have one like that myself. :)

LOGDOG

SawDust_Studios

Are you like that hair plug guy, what's his name ???  Not only are you the president, but also a client  :D

As a proud owner of a woodmizer, I must say, I was happy with your salesforce when determining the mill for me.  I just got likely and found a used WM when I was looking at the timberking and just never went back.

Now, if you want to send a me a shiny red 2400, I'd be happy to give you the opportunity to sway my decision...and write up a nice unbiased review.  ;) ;)


Quote from: Will_Johnson on October 25, 2006, 03:24:16 PM
Since I haven't posted for a while I should be clear that folks know my biases: I'm the president of TimberKing.
Making Sawdust on a Woodmizer LT40SHD CAT 51 /WM Twin Blade Edger and WM DH Kiln

DR_Buck

Quote  Wifey also thinks it would be fun work to do some sawing for the public. 


Hydraulics !


This is by far the best suggestion I received when I asked similar questions almost 3 years ago.  You can't make money if you spend all your time loading and turning big logs.   And you for sure can't do it by yourself.    Hope "Wifey" is ready to help turn thoes 24: oaks over. ;D   


BTW     I bought ORANGE
Been there, done that.   Never got caught [/b]
Retired and not doing much anymore and still not getting caught

Kcwoodbutcher

There's a barely used 1600 in the FOR SALE section if you are interested.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

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