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Razortip vs Doublehard

Started by WH_Conley, December 10, 2012, 04:15:51 PM

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WH_Conley

Has anybody done any comparison sawing with the two? If so, what is your opinion?
Bill

T Welsh

I am sitting waiting on this one!Tell us the difference if any.I use all double hards and saw mainly hardwoods and have been happy with there performance and longevity. Tim

Bibbyman

The RazorTip will out perform the DoubleHard in really tough sawing.  Will stay sharp much longer.  But costs 4-5 times as much as the DoubleHard.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

WH_Conley

That is what I was getting at, $70.00 per blade compared to $26.00 per blade. Cheapest isn't always cheapest. What conditions make the higher priced blade more cost efficient? What is the run time comparison? How do they do in dirty logs? Footage per sharpening? Number of sharpening s before they break? Blade cost per board foot? I figured somebody has already ran these numbers. No need to rediscover the wheel.
Bill

Bibbyman

I've used a couple of RazorTip blades but didn't do any cost analysis on them.

I think one important factor is if you're sending the blades back to ReSharp. Getting a lot more bf between sharpening thus less trips to ReSharp.

We need testimony from someone that has switched to them exclusively and have a big enough sample to answer your question.

When I used the RazorTip, break even or save money wasn't the motive. I had some big and hard logs to saw and they earned their keep.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

bandmiller2

Just imagine the trama if your new $70.00 razor sharp band ran into heavy tramp metal.Frank C.





A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

WDH

The first one that I used hit nails in pecan, both tough situations.  I found that it costs twice as much to have a razortip re-sharpened by Re-Sharp.  So the blade costs more and costs twice as much to have re-sharpened if you use Re-Sharp.  I am still experimenting with them.  I have three or four that I am planning to run, and I will take some data, although the results that I get on the 25 HP LT15 may be different than with the high HP hydraulic mills.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Brucer

I bought 5 razortips to try, based on the recommendation of another sawyer. I did that math and figured that I could get 3 to 4 times as much sawing between sharpenings. The savings in shipping to my sharpening guy would more than make up for the extra cost. Didn't work out so well.

The first blade cut me 2000 BF before it started to wander a touch. The second blade hit an embedded rock and broke two tips. My sharpening guy could not restore it. After I had gone through all the blades and had them sharpened, one of them broke in the gullet after about 300 BF.

I've reserved the other blades for wood that is hard on blades. That's what they were meant to do and they are good at it.

In fairness, the guy who recommended these (and switched completely over to them) runs a 51 HP diesel powered Super. He will get a lot more BF per blade revolution than I will, and I'm pretty sure it's the extra revolutions that got the crack started in the one blade.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

T Welsh

Bibbyman, Are you still running double hards as a primary blade? And using others as the need arises. Tim

delvis

My first sawing job with our then three day old WM was 30 telephone poles.  10 years old, stained through with creosote.  I heard nothing but nightmares about sawing phone poles but told the guy I would be willing to try it if he would buy a couple of the Razortip blades for me.  He said go for it, so I bought a box and he paid for the two we used on that job.  All I had to do was saw two sides flat on each pole and after about 40 passes the first blade was pretty well smoked.  The second blade finished the job well enough.  No metal, but it was like sawing through tar.  I've saved the rest of the blades and often wondered if I could use them on regular wood and be able to run them for an extra long time.  Based on what I am reading, I think I will stick with the regular double hards.  Having said that, has anyone tried going the other way, and sawing with the silver tip blades in order to save a few bucks?

I should take the next step and buy a blade sharpener and setter.  The cost of sending blades to resharp is just enough that I think I run the blades a little longer than I should so I can get every board foot out of each blade.  The cost of doing this can mean cutting the life of the blade.  I have to think about how many times I want to pay for the same blade as well though.  If a new blade runs $21 bucks and it cost between $8 and $9 per blade to have them sharpened each time, after a couple of sharpenings, I will have laid out enough money to buy a new blade.  The next step for us would be to buy a sharpener and setter and take the blades off sooner so we can get the maximum life out of them.  The outlay for the equipment is a bit pricey but the opportunity to pick up some sharpening business on the side and make some money that way is there as well.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Bibbyman

Quote from: T Welsh on December 11, 2012, 05:34:56 AM
Bibbyman, Are you still running double hards as a primary blade? And using others as the need arises. Tim

We are using the DoubleHard 7° .045 x 1.25 for everything.  Everything for us is oak - often a few months old or much older. 

We have the Wood-Mizer CBN sharpener and dual tooth setter.  Standardizing on one blade eliminates setup to another profile or height.

I have sharpened a RazorTip blade on the CBN sharpener with no problems.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

T Welsh

Bibby, Do you prefer 7° over 9° on old hardwoods? Tim

Bibbyman

Quote from: T Welsh on December 12, 2012, 06:11:09 AM
Bibby, Do you prefer 7° over 9° on old hardwoods? Tim

Yes.   I think the big difference is the deeper gullet on the 7°. 

We were using the 9° until we got hooked on the 7°. When we got the CBN sharpener I also got a 9° wheel. We had about a hundred old 9° blades to use up.  I think we're down to 5 or 6. I've not decided to put the wheel back on to resharpen them.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

pineywoods

There's another thing to consider. I normally use doublehard 10 deg blades. I was given a sample razor tip to try. Tried it on a variety of logs. The razor tip blade has zero set, no left tooth, right tooth, raker tooth. Each tooth is full width,cuts a full kerf width. If you have plenty of power, works fine. But on lower powered mills like my 22 hp gas burner, it cuts clean but will actually cut noticeably slower than the doublehards. I keep one new razor tip for special logs but went back to the old reliable doublehards for everything else.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

tommone

Pineywoods ,acccording to WM's website the Silvertips do have right and left set like doulblehards. Did they changes things?

ladylake

Quote from: tommone on December 12, 2012, 01:02:59 PM
Pineywoods ,acccording to WM's website the Silvertips do have right and left set like doulblehards. Did they changes things?

  Silvertips are WM  cheaper blades, you have Silvertips mixed up with Razor tips.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

tommone

Steve, got tripped up with my tips. Have to read slooooooooower. Tom

T Welsh

Bibby, Thanks, I trust you experience!Next time I reorder I will give the 7° a shot. Tim

delvis

Quote from: T Welsh on December 12, 2012, 06:46:41 PM
Bibby, Thanks, I trust you experience!Next time I reorder I will give the 7° a shot. Tim

We saw almost all softwood.  Pine, hemlock, spruce, fir, white cedar.  I bought two boxes of 10 degree blades when I ordered the mill.  I had never used WM blades before so I had no idea, but that's what was suggested for softwood sawing.  When the pine is good and clear and has few to no knots the 10 degree blades worked great.  Otherwise, I find that the 10 degree blades dive with every knot.  The faster the feed the worse it is.  The engine isn't even working hard when this happens.  The 7 degree blades were a great move and I think the 4 degree blades may be my next purchase.

I ran Cook's Super Sharps with my old mill and even got my local blade sharpener the right cam for that profile, but I haven't tried them with the WM mill yet.  I will say the Super Sharp blade was incredibly sharp without a doubt.  I'd like to give them a shot as well.  I need to figure out a way to get these guys to sell boxes of five so I can test them.  Lol.
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Okrafarmer

So-- what about the Silvertip? Do they do ok for softer woods? Or are they pretty much for resawing only?

If I ever got a Razortip blade to try, I guess I would only use it on difficult stuff like oak, hickory, pecan, and locust. And I would definitely metal-detect each log before starting.

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

With Razortips, WM recommends an oil emulsion for blade lube.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

delvis

Quote from: Magicman on December 13, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
With Razortips, WM recommends an oil emulsion for blade lube.

At the WM spring owner's convention this past year I overheard the WM rep talking to a fellow who was having a hard time sawing very hard exotic wood (can't remember what it was but hadn't heard of it before).  The rep told that person to use vegetable oil and mix it with dish soap before adding it to the water.  The soap acted as something of a binder to help keep the oil from seperating out of the water. 
If I never saw another board I will at least die happy having spent the last few years working with my dad!

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Okrafarmer on December 13, 2012, 08:30:21 AM
So-- what about the Silvertip? Do they do ok for softer woods? Or are they pretty much for resawing only?

If I ever got a Razortip blade to try, I guess I would only use it on difficult stuff like oak, hickory, pecan, and locust. And I would definitely metal-detect each log before starting.


Well, back I am to tell about how I finally after all these years got my first RazorTip blades. No I don't metal detect. They cut through metal pretty well.

So far I've done three logs, all of which were soft hardwood, yellow poplar and sweetgum. I know that's nothing much to go by, but I cut a lot of that stuff.

The cut finish is awesome.

I've hit 14 nails so far.  :-X Still cutting at least okay. (Sweetgum doesn't tattle on nails like oak does. No black stain except right at the nail). I hit a lot of nails in my milling, so yeah, it's all good. The real test will be how it keeps going after all these nails. Tomorrow I should get a better idea.

I bought 3 of these blades. If the nails do this one in prematurely, I will probably go back to my 4's and 7's until I have a difficult log to do.

I'm doing this on a 2020 LT35 hydraulic with the standard Kohler gas engine. It has over 1000 hours on it. I know there's been a lot of discussion about the lack of set in the teeth dragging the lower powered engines down. That may show up on something with less power than out Kohler. I believe we have 28 hp theoretically. I do notice a different dynamic in the feed rate. I can generally go faster than with the 4's and 7's but not much. I've never been all about speed anyway. I like to go slow. This particular sawmill has a factory-defective carriage rail that causes me to go slower than some people anyway. (Yes, Woodmizer acknowledged the problem and worked with us).

I'll know more after tomorrow about what to expect from this blade. After 14 nails, has it had about enough? We'll see.

Our profit margins are high enough we don't stress too much about blade costs, but the $111 or so apiece on these bad boys did make us stop and swallow. I always run every blade until it's dull or until it breaks. Broken blades can be a pain, but I never feel I got full use out of them unless they break in the cut. I've gotten quite good at extracting them now.

8)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

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