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re:tree felling

Started by abeyanko414, September 25, 2004, 08:50:33 PM

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abeyanko414

the barberchair that I hear talked of, does this happen more often where there is a large amount of bind to the tree, say in the direction it to fall? Can this casue it to split up the middle?

The reason I ask, is there is a fairly large tree I need to cut down that I want to winch in the direction I intend for it to fall, and that's away from the house. There is no sign that it would fall any direction but where I want it to go, but I was thinking of creating an artificial bind in it with my cables in the other direction from the house and then bringing it down. Can this cause that barberchair effect? From what I have heard the barberchair happens when the tree starts to fall before the cut has been made all the way through to the notch. I am afraid by putting that bind in it will cause that split.

what say you?

Tom

Don't cut all the way through to the notch.  It is the "hinge" that is left that provides control to let the tree go where you intend.  If the hinge is cut and the tree isn't committed, you are at the grace of God.

Pulling the tree over with a winch will cause fiber pull and ruin the butt log.

Barber chair isn't caused by not cutting through the tree.  It is caused by too narrow of a notch. (or no notch at all)

As the tree falls, the notch closes up.  If the notch closes before the hinge breaks then the tree quits falling and the bole may crack from bottom to top.

Click on the link at the bottom of the page for
The Timber Buyers Network
.

There is a good Chainsaw course there provided by the sister site to this forum.  It will teach you many things about chainsaw work and felling that would take weeks of questioning here. :)   Look for the chinsaw Guhru.

Ianab

If the tree isn't actually leaning toward the house you should be able to fell it without actually pulling it over. Set your rope as you planned as a safety backup but only take the slack up on it, dont load it up tight. Then use a normal notch, backcut and some wedges to fell it. If everything goes normally it will fall as dictated by the hinge. If you judged the lean wrong, or there is a gust of wind, you have the rope set as a backup. Dont pull until your notch, hinge and backcut are all completed. As Tom says leave the 'hinge' wood intact, that is what controls the fall.
If you tension up the rope and then start your backcut then you are risking a barberchair

Good to ask the questions before you get into trouble  ;)

Be carefull out there!!

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

rebocardo

To add to what everyone else posted.

About using the winch, it will not be able to winch over a tree with a four inch hard wood hinge without causing a disaster.

I use a winch a lot of the time, though it is usually only for back up or on a very dangerous tree where I want to be 100+ feet away when the tree comes over because the tree is in poor shape or it is surrounded by widow makers that are going to come down from other trees when the tree starts to fall.

My best use of a winch is to pull a stuck tree down (never happened yet) , roll it off the stump, or turn it so I can cut branches or spring poles away.

On a tree that is very wide (30+ inches) I will do everything properly including wedging it, but, then use my winch for the last 1/2" of lift sometimes. Reason being some trees (water oaks) are more prone to trunk splitting when their huge branches hit the ground or when they start to fall or are so big it is almost impossible to lift them with plastic wedges.

I have to admit to using steel splitting wedges on trees where I was really stuck and too afraid to stack the plastic wedges and the plastic wedges were just deforming and not driving into the back cut.

If the tree is 30+ inches, I would buy the aluminum wedges. I have used the hard backed plastic wedges from Bailey's and they work nice too.

On any tree where it can hit a house if everything goes 100% wrong, I have everyone out of the house and outside the falling area of the tree. To squish a house flat is one thing, to squish a person is another.

jokers

Hi rebocardo,

I`ve formed the opinion somewhere along the way that you predominantly work and fell trees in an urban environment and have also noted you referring to use of your winch. Based on my assumption of your work locale, I`m also assuming that you aren`t using a skidder or tractor mounted winch, so I`m curious to know what is working for you and also holding up to regular use. Is it a rope winch(or rope/capstan) or a cable winch?

Thanks, Russ

Kevin

The thing to remember about winches is that they aren't a sure thing.
Once the line becomes slack as the tree begins to fall the winch is no longer working.
If the hinge is cut improperly the tree could still miss the intended lay by several feet.
Sometimes it's necessary to add guys.

rebocardo

> that you predominantly work and fell trees in an urban environment
> and have also noted you referring to use of your winch

I was using a cheap 12v winch from northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company that I ended up nuking the gear shaft (my fault). It was returned for credit (parts unavailable) for a Warn 1700 that will be mounted in its place in the bed of my truck. My main use for the winch is hauling stuff into the bed of the truck! That cheap 12v 6000 pound winch worked great though.

Please note the winch in the bed is secured to the frame by 3/16 steel channel and not just bolted to the bed as a tree would easily rip that right out. The other reason for the anchor line is in case the winch or it's line fails.

I use a 4 ton come-a-long and 8000 pound snatch block too. The come-along is good for the deadman lines too.

> Once the line becomes slack as the tree begins to fall the winch is no longer working.

So true! The fastest winch can not keep up with a falling tree.

That is why I try to use at least two dead man lines and an additional anchor on the truck. The reason for the anchor line on the truck in addition to the winch line is this.

On some trees once the tree starts to fall (I drive a 1971 F-100 with 4x4, 390 ci, granny first, and pintle hook on a big bumper mounted directly to the frame with 1/2 bolts and welded) I will gun it and pull the tree as it is falling to keep it going along its intended path. The idea is to keep tension on the cable without breaking the hinge until the branches start to hit the ground. Once branches hit, you can gun it depending on what you want to do.

I learned this trick from some city employees. I recently used this trick to pull down a sweetgum about 18-20 dbh inside a condo development where there were was no place for any deadman lines.

I did the backcut and wedged it so it would support the tree without tipping it, walked to the truck the long way (not in front of the tree) and once the tree started to fall (slack on the winch line) I gunned it and ended up pulling the tree six feet off the stump.

Which is what I wanted since the stump was close to the eave of the house and A/C unit and I did not want it bouncing back or up and hitting the eave. Reason being it was being fell down a small slope into a street/alley.

One note about the winch to the original poster. Any line or cable can break and a steel cable will cut you in 1/2 or the hook can pass completely through your truck. My truck has 3/16 channel as a cage in the back, along with a 1/8 steel wall along the front of the bed and usually 2" P.T. in front of that in the area below the window. My new headache rack is expanded steel. When pulling I lie across the seat and I am basically driving blind for 10-20 feet. So, I am fairly well protected from a direct cable/hook hit.  

imo, Using a front mount winch is a very poor choice because you have no way to armor the vehicle so the hook does not pass through the front windshield, cab area, or engine compartment.

I use 1/4 cable for everything, but, it has its limits. I have snapped 1/4 cable using it for skidding and have found a knotted 1/4 cable will snap well before a 8000 pound WLL tow strap.

www.pirate4x4.com has a lot of good stuff about winching and keeping safe that taught me a few things and influenced the design of my flatbed and the thickness of materials used.

rebocardo

BTW: The reason I went 1/4 cable was because I wanted at least a 2000 pound working load limit on all components. All the 3/4 rope have a WLL limit of bout 700 pounds.

Not to mention it is very expensive and probably does not hold up to abrasion as well as cable. I could not see the rope surviving long term after a tree squishes it into concrete or black top. Frequently I will cut out a bent part of the cable and splice it into a loop instead of using it damaged.

On a huge tree (30+ DBH which I generally avoid) I would chain the front of my truck to something solid (including multiple trees) so the truck does not get dragged backwards if the tree falls backwards.

Which is why the 2000 pound WLL is important to me for the urban trees. I have thought about using 3/8 cable, but, getting the slack out of something that big is about impossible to do working by yourself.

Kevin

Just to comment on the bull rope, a good 3/4"bull rope should have a swl of at least 3500lbs or more.

Larry

This mornings job was to take down a diseased pine.  Only one direction to take it down and it was leaning heavy in the opposite direction.  Thought it would make some good pictures for this thread.




Made a nice open notch that won't close up on me as the tree falls.




Start of the bore a few inches behind where I will put the hinge.




Bore completed and slowly establish my hinge.  I want the hinge to be about 1 to 1-1/2" wide for this tree.




Start the saw toward the back of the tree.  As soon as I get room I put my first wedge in to make sure I don't pinch my bar.




Back cut complete.  Just need to cut my holding wood and start banging wedges.




Sometimes it doesn't work as planed.  Got my wedges doubled up and lifted the tree couple of inches but it don't want to fall yet.




Couple more bangs on the wedges and over she went.  Hinge did exactly what I wanted and didn't break.  If this tree had a saw log in it and wasn't in such a tight spot to fell I would have made the hinge a lot thinner and it would have broke right before the tree hit the ground.




Somebody said every stump tells a story.  They were right.

Best way to learn tree cutting is to get somebody to teach you.  There is a lot more things going on in the above pictures that I didn't even touch on.


Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Kevin

Nice job Larry, thanks for the pictures.
The reason the tree didn't want to move right away is due to the hinge being too far forward.

OneWithWood

Kevin,
Are you saying the hinge was too far forward because the tree was a leaner?  It looks like the hinge is at the 80% diameter placement to me.
Not trying to be picky, just trying to learn.

Thanks for the pics Larry.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Kevin

The general rule for the hinge placement is 1/3 the diameter of the tree.
The solid red line indicates about half the tree.
If the hinge was placed at the dotted line it changes the fulcrum resulting in less weight to lift with the wedge.
There's a limit to how far back you can go with the hinge but 1/3 is about right in most cases.


Kevin

The reason the tree remained attached is due to the shape of the face cut.
If you want the tree to stay on the stump leave a gap at the apex.

OneWithWood

One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Dana

How come you don't like steel wedges?
Grass-fed beef farmer, part time sawyer

Kirk_Allen

Why I don't like steel wedges:
1. They are heavy to carry.  
2. They eat chains if nicked during cutting.
3. They are more expensive
4. I cant see them very easily if they fall out of a pocket.

I can carry 6 plastic wedges in my hip pockets and they still weigh less than 2 metal wedges.  I don't have to worry about damaging a blade if i have a kick back that causes the saw to hit the wedge. I can buy 4 plastic wedges for the price of one steel wedge. I have no problem seeing bright yellow or orange wedges on the forest floor even among a bunch of leaves.


Larry

Usually when I head for the woods I wear a ditty bag (butt bag).  Throw 3 to 6 plastic wedges in the bag along with whatever else I think I will need.  Steel wedges are to heavy.  Sometimes the steel wedges like to squirt out of the kerf and they are definitely not chain friendly.  Got 4 steel wedges in the truck tool box as sometimes they are useful.  Like the old rusty ones the best.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

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