What is you opinion about WDE kiln ?

[rerednaw]

What is you opinion about WDE-maspel vacuum kiln ? Somebody use it ?

ps: sorry for my english

[Den Socling]

Welcome to the forum. Your English is fine.

I don't know what the arrangement is/was but Maspell's technology is sold in the US as VacuTherm.

[rerednaw]

Thanks about VacuTerm i know a lot

[DanG]

Welcome to the ForestryForum, Rerednaw!  We would like to hear more about you, what you do, and how things are in your country.  It helps us to learn more about our industry to know how things are on the other side of the world.

Please don't worry about your English.  We will figure out what you are saying. You are much better in English than most of us would be in your language. :D :D

[rerednaw]

Now i try to start business to produse finger jointed board for customer who made fillet for picture from it. But drying is a big problem. Oldest air drying chamber what we have as heritage from USSR is totaly unuseful  :( As i see a vacuum drying tehnology is future in drying business. so i decide to buy a vac kiln WDE sell his kiln in or country near 80000 Eur. in USA a litle bit cheap, but to high for me. So i have only one choice - bulid kiln by myself for first time i think what this is totaly imposible. i dont find any info about it in russian internet. but when i find this forum i see what a lot of people are joined hand-maded vac kiln and at least 30 years in USA you use it

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw,

I've seen some old Maspell/VacuTherms that looked 30 years old but these 'hand-made' vac kilns are new to the US. I know how to build one but too many people need one but can't afford one. So, if you are the kind of guy who can fix his own tools or build his own tools, join in! Maybe we can get a couple running.

Den

[rerednaw]

I think what I guy of this kind I read a lot of post about discontinuous vac kiln and have some questions.I decide to build a continuous vac kiln. At this time I have a tank-wagon from gas with these parameters:
Diameter 3m (9 foot), length 4.5m (14.7 foot), capacity is near 30 m3 (935 cubic foot ?). it is from steel with thickness from 8 to 11 mm. And 10 ears old vacuum pump bush 138063 (20 mbar, 3 hp, 41 cfm).
1. Can anybody who get vac klin to run send to me photos of you kiln ? im interesting in door construction and heating/condensing system construction.

2. Wich is drying time for 2" pine in you kiln ?

3. is 8-11mm steel enough to stand vacuum near 20 mbar ?

4. is the pump with 41 cfm enough for continuous vac ? Den, in you post you write what 1 gallon of water produce near 227 cubic foot of vapor and we need pump enough to evacuate this from chamber. If we have in chamber wood with temperature near 40C and temperature of wall of chamber near 20-25C is it not enough for condensing vapor on the wall of chamber ? or  if it is not enough we must put in chamber something like small refrigerator (or pipe with could water) for condensing vapor ? so I suppose what by one of this method we can pour out 1 gallon of water but not 227 cubic foot of vapor ?

5. heating. As in our country electricity is cheapest when aluminum heating plates like use WDE (800$ each as I hear) I decide to made electrical heating plates. I plan take 2 aluminum plate and put inside nichrome (?) wire (I don't know what is it in english. This is alloy from nickel and chrome and used for example in iron to produce heat). Another way is try to use carbon fiber material between plates. It is also produce heat when connected to electricity. But I don't have any experience with both types of these materials. Den, did you try something of this ?

6. Measuring. Where in wood you measure the temperature? On the side where is heating plates? In center of board or in the side where is not heating plates?

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw,

I think what kind of guy you are is one with a lot of questions!  :D

I don't know what a 'tank-wagon from gas' is but I'm guessing that it's a tank designed to carry liquefied petroleum gas down the highway. If so, that could be a chamber. The thickness is normal for a vacuum chamber but too light for a pressure vessel.

I didn't look up the pump but 20 millibar is very low pressure (or high vacuum).

You should note that continuous vac doesn't work unless you use our 'methods' and I can't tell you what they are. I would reconsider discontinuous if I were you.

Drying time depends entirely on how well your system works and has nothing to do with the species IF that species is permeable. You could dry soft wood in 2 days.

Condensation on the kiln chamber does assist the vacuum pump. WoodMizer, for example, thought that a very small vacuum pump could work because they were thinking like you. If you are always drying softwood and if the chamber is always in cold air, you can factor in the condensation. If you want additional condensation, hang fin pipe inside and pump cold water through it. However, if you ever dry any hardwood, the low humidity from the condensation could cause a lot of damage to the wood.

I worked with WoodMizer on the problems with electric heat. The main problem is regulating the temperature. The temperature is going to vary across the plate because wet wood will cool an area while dryer wood will not cool as much. How can you keep the temperature where it belongs when you might be monitoring a cool or a hot spot?

I usually put RTD's for temperature measurement into the center of the board.

[rerednaw]

Den,
Big thanks for you answers, it's very useful for me
 
'tank-wagon for gas' is a tank designed to carry liquefied petroleum gas by railroad (it's opinion of my electronically English translator)
 
20 mbar I see on the tablet on the pump, but I don test it. Which  pressure and temperature usually you use with discontinuous vac ?
 
What you mean "on how well your system works" ? fully automated process ? how many time I need to heat wood ? or how high vac can make my pump ?
 
I always dry pine and rarely alder. Max temperature of chamber wall is near 30C, usually 20-25C. it is enough for condensation ?

In which way woodmizer plan to make his electric plates and how they plan to heat it ? "wet wood will cool an area while dryer wood will not cool as much". if I understand right, we will have board what in one spot will be 40C and in another spot 45C ? if we have it, which kind of problem we will get ? crack of wood or no vaporization in some spot of board ? if only no vaporization we can pull down vac in advance to lower when needed.

About measuring: I plan to put one RTD direct between wood and plates to control heating temperature and one RTD on the up of wood to control temperature of wood. Is it right ?

If you think what I must first build kiln and next ask about drying technological questions just say

[Den Socling]

You are welcome to the answers. Lets see if I can give a couple more.

If you learn to use the following page from our website, you will see the 'basic' idea. Our kilns are 'continuous' vac but the basics apply to both types of vac kilns.
http://www.pcspecialties.com/torroconvHC.html
The chart on that page shows that, at 29'C, the vapor pressure of water is 39.9 m bar. If you heat wood to 29'C and pull the chamber pressure down to 39.9 m bar, all of the water in the wood will evaporate. All of the water doesn't actually evaporate because, when water starts evaporating, the temperature is going to drop and the chamber pressure is going to go up. If your system works well, you will add heat as it is used and you will pull vapor as fast as they fill the 'vacuum'. If your system is well designed and well controlled, you will add only the heat you need for a desired drying rate.

Your chamber wall is not going to give you a lot of condensation because, if your room temperature is 20-30'C, the chamber is going to warm up as water condenses. WoodMizer tried to increase the condensation by building an air plenum around the chamber and blowing air through the plenum. It helps.

WoodMizer's heating blankets were thin, flexible aluminum with a mylar-like material covering the aluminum. They were supplied with low voltage, high current. The supply was regulated with SCR's. The SCR's were fired by a microprocessor that read the blanket temperature from thermistors.

The problem was this: if the thermister was kept cool with a wet board, it would keep turning on the power. It there was an area where the wood was dry, it kept getting hotter. It could get so hot that the wood could begin to burn. In the vacuum, it would just turn black but, if you opened a kiln expecting to find dry wood, you might find a fire instead. RTD's are better than thermisters but you will have the same problem.

And wood temperature, in a continuous vac, is set by chamber pressure.

You've got things in the right order. Ask lots of questions before you start building. You sound very 'capable' (a guy who can build and fix his own) but I think that discontinuous is the way you will go after asking enough questions.  ;) But hold on to that tank!

[rerednaw]

Can you tell me approx how quickly temperature drop (if we no add heat) and how quickly pressure up for 10 m3 of wood ? is it seconds, minutes, hours ? Maybe you have some diagram of this process? And how many heat (approx) we need to add to up temperature of 1m3 of wood for 1C?
 
Can you tell me what exactly is this "mylar-like" material ? or it is something designed by woodmizer and for woodmizer ? What mean SCR and RTD abbreviation ?

What will be with wood (spot dry spot wet) if I will control temperature of plates in area what not covered by wood and try to stable temperature in this area of plates at 40C for example. Did wood warm up to 40C? Or by this way I can't provide so heat as wood need? You say what dry wood always will be hottest when wet if we add equivalent portion of heat to both (I understand right?) but I still don't understand why. I think what dry must be only get warmed thoroughly slowly when wet)
 
I get this tank to metal workshop and at Monday I hope I will have welding door at this

[Jason_WI]

SCR = Silicon Controlled Rectifier

http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/tutorials/scr.htm

RTD = Resistance Temperature Detectors

http://www.omega.com/rtd.html



Jason

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw,

The timing is determined by the design of your system. You should size the heating and vacuum components to give you minutes or parts-of-hours. If, for instance, you want to dry 10 m3 of softwood at a rate of 1% per hour, you might need to move around 9 gallons per hour. To vaporize 9 gallons, you need to get about 73,000 btu's into the water. Then your vacuum system needs to move about 2045 cubic feet of vapor. (Excuse me for leaving the metric system.) If you are doing a discontinuous vac and you want to spend 1/2 hour heating and 1/2 hour pulling vacuum, then you need to move that 2045 cubic feet in 30 minutes. So, you need a vacuum pump capable of 2045/30 minutes = 68CFM. That's about 1926 liters per minute. That's how the 'times' are set.

Mylar is a tough, clear plastic that is or was used in electronic applications. It's purpose was to protect the blankets but they still got torn. I don't know if it was mylar but you would want something that was strong even when it was very thin.

Trying to control temperature where it was not being affected by wood may be a good idea. If you add heat to wet wood in a chamber with reduced pressure (vacuum), the water can boil at low temperature. When the water boils, it carries the heat away toward the vacuum pump. When the water is all boiled away, the heat will start warming the wood. With no water, the wood can now go to 40C.

OH OH!   Another space race. This guy could get his door on ahead of the Americans. :D

[Don_Lewis]

I don't agree that a vacuum kiln is the right choice for what you are doing. If you are dryin 25mm stock to make frames and such, I am quite sure you will have problems with quality. There are about 30,000 kilns in North America and 99+ % of them are conventional or dehumdification kilns. There is a reason. One reason is quality and another is cost both capital and operating. People get really hung up on speed of drying and that is fine but it not worth the offsets. There are places where vacuum kilns work well but 25-50 mm stock is not the place. I will now log off and miss the screams...

[Den Socling]

Don,

You, like Gene, keep thinking of the vacuum kilns of the past. They were built by companies who didn't understand the dynamics. They thought that low pressure meant low temperature and that would mean low degrade. It's not that simple. They blew a lot of money on worthless details and missed the details that needed addressed.

I'm working with a company in New Zealand that wants to dry a species that New Zealand thinks is impossible to dry. I've been drying 25 mm stock in 72 hours without degrade. It knocked their socks off. In a very short time you will be seeing that 99+% of conventional and DH kilns start losing their share very quickly. The new vac kilns are so fast and quality is so good that payback, even with a fancy system running at less than 100%, is less than 3 years. Not everybody can afford a fancy system or even a DH kiln. For them, I hope I can make this discontinuous vac work. They can build it themselves and it will far surpass conventional or DH kilns.

This post is becoming one that should be at PCS's forum and not at the ForestryForum so now I'll log off.

Den

[old3dogg]

Don.
Im a vac kiln operator and I would have to agree with you.
Vacuum drying is fast but does not work in all areas of drying.

[Den Socling]

Mike,

You're right. If you can put 5 or 6 million bf into airdrying sheds, vac kilns aren't for you.  ;D

Den

[old3dogg]

Oh boy.I feel like Im trying to get in the middle of a fight here.
I will leave now.

[Den Socling]

Absolutely no fights here. But I will 'discuss' any point against vacuum drying. And, except for those who can tie up beaucoup bucks airdrying, I don't know anybody who couldn't use vacuum drying.

But again, I don't want that discussion at the Forestry Forum. move it to PCS.

[old3dogg]

Wait a minute!
Im not or will I ever be "against" vacuum drying.
BUT! If I was to get into drying a lot of thin soft wood I would have to go with DH or steam drying.

[old3dogg]

Okay.I went over to the PCS forum and there aint nobody over there fighting ???

[Den Socling]

well that's great.  :D No fights.

I IM'd the 'SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR'   and he said 'don't send anybody there. It's in disarray'!   :D Seems they are moving the PCS forum again. I need hiking boots to keep up.

Well, when I can, I'll start a topic titled 'why vacuum kilns aren't any stinking good'.  ;D Don. You're invited.

That reminds me of the other day when a guy in VA called to order a conventional kiln controller. He asked me if we ever got down to his area. I mentioned that we were installing a vac kiln not too far west. he says, "who's building those things! I said "we are". He says "I had 4 WoodMizers and I wouldn't give you two cents for one!" or something to that effect! Another Gene!  :D :D :D

[old3dogg]

PLEASE!!!!!
Dont start the WM vac kiln thing here.
They didnt work,dont work and never will work.
Vacuum drying does work and works well.There are just cheaper ways to dry on some spcieces and thicknesess.

[Den Socling]

Did you read that link that I left about Ben Aaron. He started making big bucks with baseball bat blanks dried in a WoodMizer VK2000.

Only if you airdry huge volume can you beat vac drying any species, any thickness. And airdrying has it's own issues.

Hope that system administrator gets his dinner done and our forum fixed, quick.  :D

[old3dogg]

Guess Im missing all those links????

[Den Socling]

Read page 5 of 'I got me one".

[old3dogg]

Page#5.
???? ??? ???

[Den Socling]

Jeez!  ;)
https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=drying;action=display;num=1082336613;start=80

[rerednaw]

Den,

For first time i think what mylar is used for heat plates. Now i see what it is only for protect plates. In which way they heat it ? really by VERY HIGHT current ? maybe you remember thickness and width of plates and how high current they use ? and why they don't use another metall (with more low electroconductivity then aluminium) ? and (if right understand what is mylar) it must have very low heat conductivity and this is no very good. or maybe they use high-frequency current for heat plates ?

[rerednaw]

Don_Lewis,

we need to dry not long board but smal near 5x30-10x50cm. i think in convertional it will be crack. about dehumdification kilns i first time hear mounth ago when woodmizer in belarus plan to buy one for internal use. and i'm sure for 100% what in our town (400 000 people) no one have dehumdification kiln. so i totally unknow how good and quick they are. Is they usefull for drying small board like i described ? as they principle is dehumdification i need hermetic kiln for it ?

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw,

The fuse on the high voltage (240VAC) side of WoodMizer's transformers was 15 amp. I'm guessing that about 10 volts was supplied to the blankets. That would put current up around the 200-300 amp range.

On Tuesday, we will be installing a conventional kiln controller for a company that still runs two WoodMizers. While there, I'll take a look at the blankets again. The flexible blanket was supposed to take care of the heat transfer problem in a continuous vac system. Have I mentioned that discontinuous is much less complicated and easier to build?  :D

Den

[rerednaw]

Den,

One more thanks for you answers i try to made discontinuos vac system as you advice, but with electrical heating, becouse i think what heating with plates will be quickly and precise then by heat air. maybe i wrong ? and buy the way "disconyinuos system" mean discontinuos heating or discontinuos vac ? as i understand - vac is it possible to make photos of this plates or maybe this person who have it will be kindly to talk with me by email ?

And what is you opinion about dehydration of air by wiltering woven wire cloth (like C120 at http://www.lepse.ru/eng/catalog_e/woven/filt_w/) ? is it better when condensation on pipe with could water ?

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw,

A discontinuous vac with heating plates? An interesting idea but it is more complicated than putting the wood on stickers and blowing air through a heat exchanger. I've actually considered using our water heated kilns in a discontinuous fashion for wood with unusual shapes like bent chair parts.

In discontinuous vacuum drying, neither the vacuum nor the heating is normally continuous. The vacuum is interrupted to heat and the heat is interrupted for the vacuum. One thing you will need to be careful with and that is the heating. When I suggested to these guys that they blow warm air, it is because that can be gentle heating. The air can also carry high humidity to protect against cracks. A heating plate could be damaging to wood.

A good, low cost condenser could be available from any company that sells heating systems. The fin tube that they use in baseboard hot water heaters works well. The aluminum fins somehow hold up to the acid, the copper is easy to work with and it's fairly cheap. You could probably get it from a salvage yard, as well.

You might contact WoodMizer and see if Mike Eichenberger is still there. He was the last one left (that I know of) who knew about their vacuum kiln. He may be able to give you some technical details. By the way, my idea to counter the hot spots was to cut the blankets into slits. The idea was that the resistance would go up and the current would go down at hot spots. WoodMizer's engineers wanted to test the idea the the kiln 'discontinued'! and we never tested it.

Den

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Space Race, eh ???  :D :D  We had to pay for the insurance and new User's Agreement this past week, so, we had to hustle for some bucks. If the backhoe is still available this coming week, we will drag the tank out and cut the end off to fashion our door.

  Still trying to figure the best way to make the heat exchanger. Thinking about a Solar water heater and that base board heating tube. Once the tank is cut, I will be pestering Den for ideas on the heat duct. ;D

[Den Socling]

Rerednaw (where did that name come from?) sent me a link to Russian vacuum kilns. I do believe that they are discontinuous.
http://www.ecp.ru/en/products/bc.shtml

[old3dogg]

Yep!
Aint no plates in them babies!

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Very good link.  8)

  Den, would you care to try to explain how the air duct? on top will circulate the air???  Maybe I am trying to make this more difficult than it is. Looks like the 4 pipes going into the top of the chamber, are fed from the larger pipe that is directly behind the air duct???  If so, how does the air get in and around the stack of boards, if you are blowing air straight down???  Is it possible that the air just needs to be blown into the chamber and it will circulate itself???  Is there baffles needed inside the chamber to direct the air flow ???

  I already know how the door needs to be hinged, and I have a good idea on how the gasket mating pieces should be fabricated to get a good seal.  The air thing is what has me confused, unless, the pipes on top are the VACUUM manifold ???

[rerednaw]

Den,
rerednaw (wanderer) - just a nick My name Alexander.

all,
if you want i  post a lot of link (but in russian lang) with photo of vac kilns. about previous link and other: they write what his kiln dry in 24 hours, but in real life it is not true in russia it is normal

this one with heating plates:
http://www.estikaru.nsys.by:8101/pictures.htm#3

http://lesosushilki.ru/vakyym.htm
http://www.magnetron.ru/eng/products/index.htm
this one the best i think:
http://www.vacuums.ru/proc.html
http://www.vacuums.ru/econom.html
http://www.vacuums.ru/part.html
another one with plates:
http://www.pribor.mari-el.ru/vacuum.html
http://drywood.narod.ru/drykiln.html
a lot of good photos:
http://www.kv777.ru/kv777.htm

[Den Socling]

Wow! You have been wandering the Russian internet. Thanks for all of those links. Very interesting pictures and I'm glad I can't read the descriptions. Probably says 'perfect drying in 24 hours - bright, white and degrade free'.  :D

To you builders: there's some crazy looking stuff in some of the photos but some ideas, too.

[Tom]

I don't know everything I looked at, but I sure enjoyed the visit.

[serg]

Hello! You actively discuss technology of drying of wood in vacuum dryer WDE. Our site www vacuums.ru let's discuss not only a contact way of heating but also other technologies. We are ready to discuss technology of drying in the environment sated pair in vacuum. If we have distracted you from a discussed theme, we shall not disturb more. Thank.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Hi Serg.  I doubt if anyone here feels disturbed. The technology of drying wood differs from country to country and all info is very welcome in our Forum.  I for one, wish there were a way to convert the website to English, so I could better understand the info.

  If anyone knows of a way to translate the website, I would sure like to know about it.
 
     //www.%20vacuums.ru

[Den Socling]

Well, right click and 'translate to English' didn't work too well. :D

And Serg, welcome to the forum. The discussion is open to all.

[Tom]

Serg.
You're welcome to the site to join in on discussions.  Don't use it for an advertisment for your company.  Your presence will get you recognition without making an effort at drawing customers.

I received a report asking me to attend your website.  That reporting function you used is for members to report offending posts to administrators of the Forum.  It will not enhance interest in your website.

Some of the members you see on our Drying topic are manufacturers.  Some are kiln operators.  Some are potential manufacturers or customers.   By taking a part in the thread, you will soon find who they are and they will contact you if you have presented an image of good knowledge.  

[rerednaw]

as i remember this site is very poor for interesting techical info. Tomorrow i check it again and translate all about his kiln to english. But Serg i think (if he want) can say a little bit more about drying process in his kiln.

[serg]

Hello! Once again excuse for ignorance of the English language. We communicate with the help of the program of the translator. I want to address to the colleague from Byelorussia.
       As I have understood from a forum, you want to make the vacuum drying chamber from the railway tank in diameter of 3 meters, a way contact due to flexible heating elements. If it so you receive effect not what æäåòå.:1. A pine and an alder not that wood for which the vacuum way of drying is required. 2. As far as to me have personally explained at an exhibition in Moscow, the contact way of drying is effective only from initial humidity of 25-30 %. And where you are going to dry from 80 up to 30 %? 3. The Russian manufacturers from Izhevsk, and a board of an oak, a nut, a beech etc. thickness 50ìì can not dry others.
4. The contact way gives up to 25 % of a marriage(spoilage) (disorder of humidity on length and thickness)
5. How you are going to load on such height of a board?
6. If you will collect a condensate all surface of capacity you will have marriage(spoilage) of wood because of small quantity(amount) pair in the drying chamber.
7. If you will apply fans, stagnant zones which to find out very difficultly will appear.
8. Under the cost price of manufacturing in Byelorussia you receive heavy losses. Expected effect will fail.
 You are right, in the Russian market the set of vacuum drying chambers both domestic, and import is offered:
1.        Vacuum, Mr. E.Pan'otstsi
2.        Vacuum, Teodor Vanihec
3.        Vacuum - compres Russia
4.        Vacuum - pulse, Russia
5.        Vacuum - aerodynamic, Russia
6.        Vacuum - having blown Russia
7.        7. Vacuum contact, Russia

Half of sales declared in the Internet there are in one copy, and some only in the theory.
If to continue, I wait for questions. Thank serg
 

[Den Socling]

A discussion between two Russians in our forum.   wow

Serg,
I think I tried to warn about 'degrade' (marriage spoiled  :D) a few post back. I'm afraid the points of contact will overheat.

'Contact' drying is good only from 30% down? I'm glad that isn't true but I can't tell you how to fix your process.

If I read your post correctly, you are right about condensing everything on the chamber wall. If you do, humidity will get too low for some species at some times.

Again, you sound like a man with some experience in vacuum drying when you mention the 'stagnant zones'. That is another point I've tried to make in this discussion of building a discontinuous vacuum kiln. It will work only if the builder can get air to circulate (and heat) evenly.

Den

[rerednaw]

"1. A pine and an alder not that wood for which the vacuum way of drying is required."

For me important is time of drying. Only from this point of view.

" 2. As far as to me have personally explained at an exhibition in Moscow, the contact way of drying is effective only from initial humidity of 25-30 %. And where you are going to dry from 80 up to 30 %? "

I hear this for first time. Why only from 30% (when in wood is no more "free" water) ? What prevent water from evaporate in 30-80% ?

"3. The Russian manufacturers from Izhevsk, and a board of an oak, a nut, a beech etc. thickness 50ìì can not dry others."
Maybe they need to develop one more program process for pine ?

"4. The contact way gives up to 25 % of a marriage(spoilage) (disorder of humidity on length and thickness)"

i still totaly not understand why heating by water in plates (contact metod, right ?) don't overheat and degrade wood while electrical plates overheat ? Even if i control temperature in area where wood cannot have an influence.

"5. How you are going to load on such height of a board?"

height it only 1.80m and 1.20 (60 and 60) is unused area.

"6. If you will collect a condensate all surface of capacity you will have marriage(spoilage) of wood because of small quantity(amount) pair in the drying chamber."

I plan to control amount of pair in chamber but don't know at which point (i think near 50%) and dont know its help or no.

"7. If you will apply fans, stagnant zones which to find out very difficultly will appear."

in you www you write what you dont use fans, but speed of movement of air in you chamber is 1m/sec. how you do it ? only by convection ?

"8. Under the cost price of manufacturing in Byelorussia you receive heavy losses. Expected effect will fail."

I think what difference in Russia in Belarussia is what in Russia you can do a lot of manufacturing by unofficial way So if we find this possibility in Belarussia price will be comparable. no ?

[serg]

I support and agree (if have correctly transferred(translated)) the American colleague. Only it is warm also air in regular intervals can provide qualitative drying. In Russia of it have not made. Pair a little, start to exhaust water through atomizers to do(make) humidifying for the top layers of wood. While nothing it turns out. Cracks turn out. Internal layers of a tree do not get warm, internal pressure(voltage) exist. If speed only the microwave will help is necessary for you. And why you have overlooked about quality? You look cinema and trust, and I saw all in work! In 2004 of Izhevsk has passed on plates with water from stainless steel. They have adopted it at Italians, only without press. Why they dry from 30 %? Because free water at humidity of 80-100 % gives many(a lot of,much) pair. It results in rotting a wood. The third item(point) I can not understand.
Flexible heating elements adjoin to a surface non-uniformly, with air, as results in non-uniform heating.
Italians have replaced them with aluminium plates with water and have pressed down from above. It has enabled to remove a stain, but has not given them an opportunity to dry from humidity of 80-100 %. Such way have gone also some Russian.
To operate quantity(amount) pair difficultly if the pair is not present, bad quality of a wood and when the pair is a lot of turns out, there is no drying and there is a rotting a wood.
Yes, only a cold downwards warmly upwards it is possible to achieve results.
It is possible to make informal way. You are the inventor.
 The essential moments: manufacturing of a flange, the welding seams, capable to hold vacuum. The flange should have a groove for vacuum rubber. The special machine tool is necessary for manufacturing a flange.
Dear sirs! Explain, who the first has applied an electric way of heating America or Italy? Thank.

[Tom]

Serg,
Read the main heading of page for " the instant message "

 :P I'm trying! :D

[Den Socling]

Unbelievable! Two Russians using their Google translators so that we can follow their discussion!  ;D Thank you Serg and Rerednaw. I wish the translators worked a little better. No, I wish the translators worked a lot better. Feel free to use the smiley faces.  ;) A picture is worth a thousand words.  8) And we have misunderstandings even when we are all speaking the same language.

If I could tell a few people in Russia how to dry 75mm Oak right off the saw, I would do it. But, if I did that, a lot of people might find out too soon. I have to keep that knowledge to myself for awhile. I will tell you how to build and use an Italian-type discontinuous vacuum. Use the information at the PC Specialties website that shows the vapor pressure of water at various temperatures. If you know the wood temperature, you know the vapor pressure. If you know the vapor pressure, you know what chamber pressure you need to make water boil. You can now control drying. But, for oak that thick, you need humidity control to dry without cracks. The Italians know the basics. They just haven't figured out the details. For 25mm Oak at 80% moisture content, you don't need humidty control.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Den, Tried to join your forum. Got a message that there is a problem with the website ???

[Den Socling]

The 'kids' have really been busy but I'll ask them to fix it again tomorrow.

Garrett got his ponytail cut off tonight. Hope his computer whiz thing doesn't go with it.  ;D

[serg]

Tom, I try to study new.   :P
Den, I can not find a site of " Feature ÐÑ " ???
The translator could not transfer(translate) word Humidti to Russian
The oak thickness 75ìì at temperature of 75 degrees, vacuum 0,09 ÌÏà and saturations pair 90-100 % dries 22 days up to residual humidity of 5-6 %. Difference of humidity of a wood on thickness makes 0,5-1 %.  

[rerednaw]

Sergey, Vy chitaete lichnye soobschenija ? eto v samom verhu, chto-to tipa:
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Good Morning Serg, it is 16.06.04 at 02:47:40
You have 1 message, 0 are new.
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tam-ze mozno i otvechat. Den, imell vvidu skoree vsego eto: http://www.pcspecialties.com/torroconvHC.html

[serg]

den,was on your site,you the big success in work 8) Ñïàñèáî âñåì ìû Âàñ   Ñåðãåé

[Den Socling]

You are welcome.

[rerednaw]

Eng: Sergey, can you send to me you message: reply #48 on: 14.06.04 at 12:34:16 in russian language ? rerednawus@mail.ru
Rus: Sergey, Vy mozete prislat mne Vashe soobschenie: reply #48 on: 14.06.04 at 12:34:16 na russkom jazyke ? rerednawus@mail.ru

[serg]

Greetings! What new? Look, tell your opinion as furnish of library, a study a dry oak, a nut, a maple, a photo on my site has turned out. ???

[rerednaw]

Yeah This is my pretty:  8)

http://www.infolida.com/rerednaw/PRETTY.jpg

[Den Socling]

Another beauty!  :D

He's got one. He's got one!

[rerednaw]

So, my beauty work a little strange and slowly at this time, but work  ;)

[Den Socling]

I've been talking with rerednaw via email. He copied Sergey's design and it sounds like the DYI vac kiln works but he wants it faster. I know how to make it faster but I'm leaving it up to Sergey to make it public or keep a secret.

[rerednaw]

I`m not just simply copy Serg kiln. what is DYI kiln ??

[Den Socling]

rerednaw just told me, via email, that he paid Sergey for documentation. He didn't just copy it.

rerednaw,
DYI stands for Do It Yourself.
Den

[serg]

Hello! Drying of a red oak, complex(difficult) process. The pine is dried more easy. The vacuum dryer is recognized the best for drying firm grades of a tree. I have lead(carried out) many(a lot of,much) experiment with vacuum drying and have drawn a conclusion: it is possible to do(make) an output(exit) of free water without vacuum. For this purpose I have made a drying complex. Costs(stands) cheaply and dries three times more! The vacuum is not necessary for a conclusion of free water. The oak will burst on air without humidifying. All boards, after a saw should get during 3 days in the drying chamber! I do(make) so. Sergey.