Inaccurate Mill Scale

[Ga Mtn Man]

I was testing a new setworks design and the digital measurements were dead on with the mill scale below about 12" but were off by an increasing amount the farther up the scale (towards 36") that I went.  After spending several evenings going over the software trying to find the error but with no success, I was standing at the mill just staring, not knowing what to do next when I noticed that the bottom 4/4 mark of quarter scale didn't line up with the correct measurement(34-¾").  It was off by 3/32".  Here's what I found:     



 



  



  



 

I did verify the tape against a precision scale and it was good.

>:(

I've had the mill for 3.5 years and I never noticed this until recently but I can't say for sure whether it was like this when I bought it.  Anyone ever seen this on their WM (or other) mill scales?     

[Sixacresand]

I just assumed it was true and accurate.  I'll check mine. 

[pineywoods]

I'm very interested in the homebrew setworks. I have a home-made remote control on my mill, but I don;t use it much. Without setworks, it's more trouble than it's worth..Member Arnold113 offered me all the documentation, including computer code, for his fully automated setworks/remote. Unfortunately, he passed away suddenly before we could get together...

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Whether I'm doing right or I'm doing wrong I never use a tape measure to check a stick measure.
Have you compared the mill measurements to anything else other than a tape measure?

If I remember right, I think Bibbyman said something about this years ago.

[Ga Mtn Man]

I did verify the tape against a precision scale and it was good.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I did verify the tape against a precision scale and it was good.

[Larry]

I've seen error in almost all of the stick on tapes.  On my table saw I replace the tape on the fence about every two years.  Starrett tapes are the best, but still have some error.  Just checked the one I'm using at present and it is 1/64" long over 31" which doesn't bother me.

Magnetic tapes seem to have even more error.  Don't even mention fiberglass tapes...

[Ga Mtn Man]

Hmmm, I did not know that Larry.  That's good information to keep in mind.

I had always assumed the scale was somehow painted or printed on the aluminum strip but it isn't.  It's a stick on "decal" as WM calls it.  Including tax and shipping it would cost $18 for just the decal from WM and there's no guarantee it would be any better.  I did some searching (before it started raining somewhere in the US and my internet slowed to a crawl :) and found lots of horizontal stick on tapes but only one vertical, top-down reading stick-on scale.


 

It's 1-1/4" wide and the WM scale is 1" but it's made of polyester so should be easy to trim one edge after sticking it on.  I'm going to call the company and see if they have a 1" version before ordering.  With shipping, it's about $9 from Amazon. 

[Kbeitz]

I put one on both sides of my mount. I can see where I'm at from both
in front and back of the head.

[GrizG]

This reminds me of a lesson I learned about 30 years ago... I was working in a gunsmith shop at an 18th century living history museum at the time. I noticed that the markings on a handmade folding rule had variance in the increments not only within each inch but that the inches were not uniform. It didn't take long to understand that as long as I measured everything with that ruler it didn't matter... I could have done just as well with a story stick that had no increments on it but rather only tick marks I made as needed... dividers were often more useful.

As a fine woodworker today I've got scales on many of my stationary tools and have at least a dozen tape measures, rulers and yardsticks in the shop. I can safely say that no two are exactly alike. As such, I try to use one tape or ruler per project to measure everything or I use story sticks. If it absolutely has to meet a certain specification I have a Starrett combination square, dial calipers, and other precision measuring devices with which to measure thickness. On the other hand, when I do hand tool joinery and surfacing each piece if made to fit relative to the others so I don't really care what things measure!

As a woodworker, in regards to rough cut wood, if it's within 1/16" to 1/8" on the proud side that is good... I've seen bandsaw mill blade chatter and circular saw tooth marks that deep, not to mention twist, cup, etc.  On the other hand, as a sawyer I can appreciate that you might get an extra board or two out of a log, for example, if you cut to "exactly" 4/4. That is fine if the boards are relatively smooth and flat such that surfacing gets the board to the sacred 3/4.  Jointer and planer snipe and cutter marks leave me milling a bit thick anyway so I have material to work with when flattening and smoothing surfaces.

This is a long winded way of saying that a bit of variance from one scale to another has little to no practical impact in the scheme of things.  ;)

[Magicman]

Maybe true, but not necessarily true in the OP's case.  If his setworks is dropping the head at an exact predetermined increment each time, then the starting point matters.  Now when, if ever, the starting point would ever be at the very top, who knows, but the bottom board would be 3/32" off.

Paul is very exact with his undertakings and at least we now know that he is not  smiley_dizzy

[WDH]

He is a precise kind of man. 

[Ga Mtn Man]

Paul is very exact with his undertakings and at least we now know that he is not  smiley_dizzy

...but will be again if he ever was.  What? ???

He is a precise kind of man. 

Precisely.

In truth I really wouldn't care about that small of an error except that I'm now trying to use the scale to calibrate and judge the accuracy of my blade height algorithm. 

[Magicman]

See, I toldcha !!!  You go Paul.   8)

[4x4American]

Measuring is overrated anyways, we came from the cavemen and the cavemen didn't measure nothin!

[Kbeitz]

Measuring is overrated anyways, we came from the cavemen and the cavemen didn't measure nothin!

Caveman found out he was getting the short end of the stick...
He needed to learn how to read one...



 

[crowhill]

Maybe the variance in the scale is predetermined for the wear in the saw blade?🤓

[4x4American]

Wow, Kbeitz, this proves that Dewalt is a really old company. 

[GrizG]

Measuring is overrated anyways, we came from the cavemen and the cavemen didn't measure nothin!

Caveman found out he was getting the short end of the stick...
He needed to learn how to read one...



 

Is that Norm (New Yankee Workshop) in his early days?

[tacks Y]

So do all WM mills run the scale down? My mill starts at 1" off the bed and goes up. Do you find it easier going down?

[Ga Mtn Man]

It's done that way because the pointer is fixed and the scale moves UP/DN with the head.

[D6c]

Had a similar problem on my LT40.  The scale is an engraved aluminum strip and marked out 4/4, 5/4, etc.  The problem was the lumber always came out a little on the thin side.  I finally started checking and the scale was made with a 1/16" kerf allowance....can't figure why they did that.  I ended up flipping the scale over and engraving it allowing for 0.1" kerf.

I too would like to hear more about your setworks project.  If I knew more about servo drives and electronics it would be a great addition.  Just looking at my mill, I think you could mount a servo motor & encoder on the top of the carriage and use a ball screw to raise/lower the head.  Would eliminate the gear reduction and chain lift system it has.

[Ga Mtn Man]

The current project is a full-featured setworks controller to replace the WM SimpleSet controller without doing in modifications to the SimpleSet.  It uses the existing SimpleSet housing, button pad, H-bridge, and encoder.  I have plans to do a more generic stand-alone system if this one works out.  I'll post some more info in another thread soon.

[trapper]

My old lt30 starts at the bottom and goes up. 

[Ga Mtn Man]

I received the new stick-on scale from Oregon Rule on Friday and got it installed over the weekend.  I think I can live with this one:



 



 



 

This is the 1-1/4 wide version with one edge trimmed off, bought off of Amazon.  I did call Oregon Rule and they do make a 1" version but there's a $20 min order requirement.  I was considering order 5 for $4.50 ea. but the shipping was $19.11!  BTW if you go to Oregon Rule's website, the vertical reading scales don't show up, you have to call them but they're the same price as the horizontal ones.

I was a little disappointed that there was no 3M logo on the backing.  I'll let y'all know how it holds up.

[Larry]

Made in the USA.....I like it.

[Ga Mtn Man]

Well it turns out they DO sell the 1" wide version on Amazon.  Apparently the guy I spoke with didn't know what he was talking about.

https://www.amazon.com/Ruler-Adhesive-Backed-Vertical-Fractional/dp/B00K5UZ91A/ref=sr_1_54?ie=UTF8&qid=1497307293&sr=8-54&keywords=oregon+rule+co

[Kbeitz]

I just got 5 of these off amazon for $16.80 shipping included.



 

[Ga Mtn Man]

Wow!  If those were 36" long, 1" wide, top-down reading, and self-adhesive then they'd be exactly what I needed.

[4x4American]

Paul can you even read the scale from 20' away when you're on your remote control  lol lol

[Ga Mtn Man]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

[4x4American]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

[Darrel]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

[Ga Mtn Man]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

Can't think of a clever response but I did want to see another iteration of the nested quotes.  Cool. :laugh: :laugh:

[Magicman]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

Can't think of a clever response but I did want to see another iteration of the nested quotes.  Cool. :laugh: :laugh:

I have it on good authority that Goats can not take pictures of Drones.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

Can't think of a clever response but I did want to see another iteration of the nested quotes.  Cool. :laugh: :laugh:

I have it on good authority that Goats can not take pictures of Drones.

I have it on good authority that if we keep on clicking "Quote"...you're not gonna be able to read the first Quote.  :D :D :D :D They keep getting smaller.

[Ga Mtn Man]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

Can't think of a clever response but I did want to see another iteration of the nested quotes.  Cool. :laugh: :laugh:

I have it on good authority that Goats can not take pictures of Drones.

I have it on good authority that if we keep on clicking "Quote"...you're not gonna be able to read the first Quote.  :D :D :D :D They keep getting smaller.

I ain't goin down without a fight. >:(

[4x4American]

Two words:  wireless camera  ;D

Get a Drone and stay at home and saw.  :D :D :D

How do you know he's not sawing right now?   ;)

Because somebody won't leave him the Sam Hill alone :D

Can't think of a clever response but I did want to see another iteration of the nested quotes.  Cool. :laugh: :laugh:

I have it on good authority that Goats can not take pictures of Drones.

I have it on good authority that if we keep on clicking "Quote"...you're not gonna be able to read the first Quote.  :D :D :D :D They keep getting smaller.

I ain't goin down without a fight. >:(

Well this could get interesting...

[WDH]

The Boss is gonna give y'all a whippin' if you don't quit doing that. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Now thats a quote! 

[Ga Mtn Man]

I'm out.

[4x4American]

 8)  I reckon that means I take first place...or would that be last place? hmmm

[Magicman]

Danny was 'fraid whut we was agonna use up all of da "quote fluid".   

[Darrel]

Danny was 'fraid whut we was agonna use up all of da "quote fluid".   

No worries Danny, I only does dry quotes. :D

[Kbeitz]

Wow!  If those were 36" long, 1" wide, top-down reading, and self-adhesive then they'd be exactly what I needed.

They now have them...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K5UZ91A?ref_=pfb_djjk97j1ccndlkc22nmdmhkjgdlh&tag=hydfbook0e-20&ascsubtag=pfb-P01-V01-O5-T1-LO-4DCJUB

[Ga Mtn Man]

Indeed they do.  See reply #26 of this thread.