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Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

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Brad_bb

I love this concept.  I have a manual mill (LT15GO), but I'm looking into adding manual toe boards and manual turner.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

customsawyer

You done good. It is better to waste a wedge cut to make sure you get the rays. 
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

Jake, thanks.

Quote from: Engineer on February 07, 2017, 03:00:30 PM

Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was.

This is one of tricks that I been using that has really helped, which is start from the old, cracking end of the log. I buck the log longer than I need anyway, in this case about 8'6" or so, and if I let the log sit a few days or so, the rays will start cracking and making them very easy to see and really lets me see my sawing lines, in addition to the marker lines.  The rays cracking are a dead giveaway of where I need to put the band.  If you look at the bottom part of the cant (zoom in) you'll see slight but distinct end checking in the rays, which is why I didn't always need to use a Sharpie to mark them, Mother Nature does it for me.  It's a case of the less I do, the easier it becomes.   



After sawing, the boards come right off the drag back and are deadstacked on an 8 foot pallet. Then I use the chainsaw to trim the entire pack to length, cutting off the checked ends, and immediately Anchorseal.  I've been doing a good deal of this packsawing and trimming technique, and I would rather buck or pack saw two ends of a pallet of wood to bring them to length. than a bunch of logs.  I'm getting lazy in my old age, trying to find easier ways.....
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SlowJoeCrow

Great tip!  This way you are only chainsawing finished boards, not the bark (and potential dirt), maximizing the chain life of the saw as well.  Smart!

John S

I have read this post twice so far and think I get it.  Great job, and I will try it when the snow melts here.  I think this is very similar to the method that Marty Parsons demonstrated at the PA Owners day last October.  What blade are you using on your mill?  Thanks!
2018 LT40HDG38 Wide

5quarter

Yellowhammer...that is some sweet looking lumber! That is pretty much the same way I QS. I tried to explain it once quite awhile ago, but your explanation is practically a handbook!  ;) :D On smaller logs up to about 32", i'll split in two, taking only 2 boards out of the center. On the bigger logs, I will split in thirds with the chainsaw. When sawing, the size of the wedge I take is determined by measuring about 2½" above the plane where the blade would intersect the upper right corner of the cant. That way I can get 2 boards; one narrow and one full width. Ideally I continue the wedge-board-board pattern until the cant is sawn up., but I have yet to encounter the ideal log  ;). Do you trim off your angled edges straight off the saw or after they're dried? I do mine right off the saw, but I HATE edging on the saw if I can help it.  :(
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

WDH

Robert,

You keep doing this and you will have to have an edger  :-\ :-* ;D :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

An edger is sure something I think about a good deal, and pretty much every board that comes off will have an odd, angled edge.  If I could find a decent one for a good price, I'd get it, but in all honesty, I haven't been able to justify or even find one it, at least a good one.  Seems very few people in this area use WM, Cooks, or Timber King style edgers, and it's very difficult to find a late model used one, and the 40 year old PTO versions of others types that have been left in the hayfield for decades are rusted junk and are way overpriced. 

I have been keeping my eyes open, and have been watching, but no luck yet.  Some of the bigger mills around here use big old 1945 straight line rip saws for accurate dimensional edging on green lumber, others use the new technology that edges boards so fast it's amazing.  I have been considering getting a vintage SLR for that purpose. 

I have two other options that make it a difficult decistion.  First is that there is a place down the road who will straight line rip every dried board for 15 cents per bdft, and also I can straight line mine as well, once they are dried, and I get a joint quality edge.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sirh2Tf-0Y0
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

paul case

As nice of q sawn lumber as you have, I would be uneasy about letting it leave for fear that you wouldnt get it back.
Our edger almost always takes 2 people and if you edge on the mill with 2 people it isnt so painfull. The WM single edger is the exception. I could edge on it alone and it was just a hair faster than on the mill.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

D6c

You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/

Ga Mtn Man

That looks like text-book quarter-sawn lumber to me...rings at 90° to the cut face.
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Magicman

D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Darrel

Not everything you read on the internet is correct.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

D6c

Quote from: Magicman on February 12, 2017, 08:36:46 PM
D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.

You're right....seems like I've seen another place that had it backwards like that too.

footer

I couldn't tell you how many places on the internet I have seen that picture, or similar, with someone arguing that the bottom picture is rift sawn. Here is a long thread form years back on this exact same thing.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=79020.0

Nomad

Quote from: D6c on February 12, 2017, 06:40:39 PM
You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/

     What kills me is they're suggesting this to avoid the medullary rays.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

YellowHammer

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on November 14, 2014, 10:29:22 AM
For hardwood lumber, quartersawn has three definitions.  Perhaps the most useful comes from the National Hardwood Lumber Association.  It applies to species with the ray fleck pattern on a radial surface.  If the fleck is visible on 80% of the surface (used for grading), then the piece is quartersawn.  This definition certainly helps satisfy the customer's desires when they quest quartersawn. In order to get the fleck pattern the annual growth rings, when viewed from the end grain, need to be between 75 to 90 degrees to the face...not part of the definition but rather what will exist.

With my customers, this is the definition that applies when they are paying for the more expensive QS wood.  If it doesn't have ray fleck, it's not what they want. 

Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

No matter the angle, I do not consider oak quartersawn unless there is ray fleck. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Larry

Happy Birthday YH :)

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 13, 2017, 10:59:08 PM
Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck.

A little picture of burr oak where rays are nice and fat.  Makes sawing for fleck a lot easier.



YH has come up with a method to maximize figure by putting more effort and time into sawing.  I think its a great idea to insure each board shows its full figure.  I bet those boards make a nice return on effort. :)
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Darrel

If only I would've had all this info before I sawed up all my black oak. I have some good figure but I could have done better.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

YellowHammer

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

flatrock58

Yellowhammer
I cut a couple of large oak logs this week and used a couple different methods.  Haven't tried your method yet.  I ended up with about 50% quartersawn and the rest were rift sawn.  I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Cooks Dual Tooth Setter
Solar Kiln

YellowHammer

Quote from: flatrock58 on February 15, 2017, 09:38:30 AM
Yellowhammer
I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
That's the point of this technique, the goal is to get every single board to show ray fleck.  Also, the exploratory wedge cuts on the narrow sides of the log half are to confirm that the angle and geometry of the cut is good and will show fleck, before wide boards are sawn.  On most conventional techniques, the first cuts are made through the wide part of the log half to make quarters, and these boards are sawn widest down to narrowest.  So misses can occur on the widest boards.  Using the technique I'm using, as I'm sawing narrowest to widest, I know for sure, board after board, will have ray fleck.  No guessing.
So in reply 43, I showed every cut on the half log, which was about 30 inches in diameter.  Every board came off with fleck, except a narrow starter wedge. 
It may not be the fastest technique, but I don't think it's slower than any other, and my stress level goes way down, as I know I'm in good wood the whole log. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

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