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How much lube per bf?

Started by WV Sawmiller, July 03, 2015, 01:14:10 PM

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WV Sawmiller

    I suspect I am not using enough lube. I know lube requirements vary with types of wood and other factors.

    It seems my lube tank lasts forever. I'm mostly just cracking the valve a little and dripping it on the blade as cutting. Should I have a much bigger flow? I mostly cut tulip poplar and other hardwoods and not too much softwood. Am cutting some hemlock now. Have cut a little spruce but it was pretty dry. Have not had reason to cut pine up here yet. Mostly my clients seems to be in the market for hardwood.

    Do any of you have good estimates of how many gallons of lube you use per m/bf or such? Would be especially helpful if broken down by type of wood. I'd sure appreciate your observations and recommendations.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

GAB

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 03, 2015, 01:14:10 PM
    I suspect I am not using enough lube. I know lube requirements vary with types of wood and other factors.

    It seems my lube tank lasts forever. I'm mostly just cracking the valve a little and dripping it on the blade as cutting. Should I have a much bigger flow? I mostly cut tulip poplar and other hardwoods and not too much softwood. Am cutting some hemlock now. Have cut a little spruce but it was pretty dry. Have not had reason to cut pine up here yet. Mostly my clients seems to be in the market for hardwood.

    Do any of you have good estimates of how many gallons of lube you use per m/bf or such? Would be especially helpful if broken down by type of wood. I'd sure appreciate your observations and recommendations.

There are so many variables involved with your question that I doubt anyone will be able to give you an answer.
Some of the variables I'm thinking of are:
Type of or species of wood
How long ago was it cut?
What time of the year?
Location in the world
What has the weather been?
How much set does your blade have?
How fast are you trying to cut?
What tooth angle are you using?
How much HP do you have?
How wide are you sawing?
Is it a fresh blade or have you been sawing with it some?
How clean are your logs?
Is your lube system gravity flow? if so the height in the tank could affect the flow rate.
Etc.

Personally I use a mix of water and ERA laundry detergent and keep an eye on the blade.  If it appears that the blade is not clean then I increase the flow of the  lube, if it is very clean then I will back off some.
Water is not all that expensive and if the ERA mix does not work for you then use it to do laundry with.
And that is my 2 cents on the subject.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

justallan1

That's kind of a tough question. When I'm sawing pine I adjust my flow according to the build-up on my blades. Some require next to none, while others I have to just about pour it straight out of a bucket. On box elder, juniper and apple I rarely need any at all and rely on my scrapers as much as possible.
I feel if your blades are staying clean without it there is no reason to use it.

mesquite buckeye

Well put.

;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :snowball:

When I am cutting fresh cut mesquite, I have to use a lot of water because the bark is very gummy and will crud up the blade pretty quickly. Once the logs are partially dry, I can get away with less. At that time if I use too much the sawdust plugs up in the shield box. Once the wood is dry I have to use more water again because the blade will heat and dull quickly if not cooled. I've seen the same thing with other dry hardwoods like bur oak and walnut. You can see burn marks on the boards if you have no lube. Hope this helps.  ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Joe Hillmann

I use diesel 1 quart will last from 500 to 2000 bdft.  If I put too much on the blade will pop off the  wheels so I use as little as possible.

WV Sawmiller

Joe,

    Are you just spraying it directly on the blade or mixing it in the lube tank? If mixing how much water are you mixing it with? What are you cutting?
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

bkaimwood

I use 5 gallons per 8 hours of sawing, up to twice that in above mentioned special situations... Hope it helps, I rarely measure bf at this time...
bk

boscojmb

I am running straight diesel in my lube tank. I use about one drop per second depending on what type of wood I am sawing. As mentioned earlier a quart will last 2K Bd Ft or more.
John B.

Log-Master LM4

Dave Shepard

I'm sawing winter cut pine. I've only turned the lube on once in the last week and a half, and that was just too see if it worked.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

drobertson

5 gallons will last as mentioned 1500 to 2000 bdft of most wood, oak, walnut, cherry and some pine.  I've gotten into some pine that is very pitchy, and often times have to take my scraper to the band to rid the excess.  It still amazes me how some logs from the same stand of pine have so much more pitch resign than the rest.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Kbeitz

I would like to add to the questions.
For the people that has  gravity flow does the lube only drip on top one side of the blade ?
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 03, 2015, 05:48:25 PM
Joe,

    Are you just spraying it directly on the blade or mixing it in the lube tank? If mixing how much water are you mixing it with? What are you cutting?

Straight diesel squeezed onto both sides of the blade.  I have two wooden blocks with a bunch of holes drilled in them that pinch the blade and act almost like felt pads for getting the diesel onto the blade.

boscojmb

Quote from: Kbeitz on July 03, 2015, 08:05:35 PM
I would like to add to the questions.
For the people that has  gravity flow does the lube only drip on top one side of the blade ?

Top side only. Gravity acts the same way on pitch as it does the lube. I've never seen pitch build up on the under side of the blade.

Different trees in different parts of the country saw differently, this was a hard lesson learned for me.
The folks sawing SYP in the south may need a totally different lube system than I do. I sometimes turn the lube off when cutting hardwoods.
John B.

Log-Master LM4

WV Sawmiller

Thx everyone. Maybe I am not as far off in my usage as I was beginning to think. Not much sap in the wood I am cutting so sounds like a steady drip may be most I need most of the time.

Kbeitz,

    That is the way I understand it works on my WM LT35. Not sure about the design of other mills. Not sure if the diesel applicator Joe is describing is factory or custom design. Can't see what kind of mill he is running from his signature line.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

drobertson

I've also notice there is never a pitch build up on the outer side of the blade, just the inside, which surely comes from the band wheels. It packs on much the same as the belts do.  I've often thought of putting a wire brush above center of the drive wheel  and  outer idler to help clean the belts, just never have,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Brad_bb

Running green hardwood like that I'm filling my 5 gallon jug twice in 7 hours, while cutting a timber and boards from the log.  I reckon you want enough to keep the blade wet, but you don't want it splashing all over the place.  My biggest problem is with adjusting the valve from woodmizer. It's too sensative and it's like either too much or too little often.  My other problem is remembering to close the valve between cuts or when I stop to do something.   It then make a mess on the floor.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

gimpy

Gimpy old man
Lucky to have a great wife
John Deere 210LE tractor w/Gannon Box

gimpy

Personally, I bought two extra lube tanks and keep them filled and mixed with both dawn dishwashing soap and pinesol. Perhaps partially due to water being further than I want to carry the tanks. So I fill all three and transport them in a garden cart. I probably use more than I need but find no downside to using to much while there is a down side to using to little. I never get a build up on my blades after going to my present program.

But that's just me, a relative newbie.
Gimpy old man
Lucky to have a great wife
John Deere 210LE tractor w/Gannon Box

4x4American

I was sawing locust that has been down since fall 2014 today.  I didn't really need much lube at all.
Boy, back in my day..

SawyerBrown

Agree with all that has been said so far.  "Lube" isn't really for lubrication, it's primarily for keeping the blade clean.  So as to how much lube to use?  I trickle it on as long as the blade stays clean, and open it up if/ when the blade starts getting a little sticky. I'll go heavier until blade clean, then back it down a bit.  I just use water and the cheapest dish soap I can find.
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Chuck White

Quote from: Brad_bb on July 03, 2015, 11:18:55 PM
Running green hardwood like that I'm filling my 5 gallon jug twice in 7 hours, while cutting a timber and boards from the log.  I reckon you want enough to keep the blade wet, but you don't want it splashing all over the place.  My biggest problem is with adjusting the valve from woodmizer. It's too sensative and it's like either too much or too little often.  My other problem is remembering to close the valve between cuts or when I stop to do something.   It then make a mess on the floor.


Brad; I installed a small shut-off valve in the line about 4-5 inches after the lube tank shut-off valve.
The one I used is an old fuel shut-off valve that I had laying around.
Just cut the small line that runs out to drip on the blade and install the valve, open the tank valve all the way and adjust your drip with the other one.
Once you get the flow adjusted to where you want it, just use the main valve to turn the lube on or off.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Larry

Quote from: Brad_bb on July 03, 2015, 11:18:55 PM
Running green hardwood like that I'm filling my 5 gallon jug twice in 7 hours, while cutting a timber and boards from the log.  I reckon you want enough to keep the blade wet, but you don't want it splashing all over the place.  My biggest problem is with adjusting the valve from woodmizer. It's too sensative and it's like either too much or too little often.  My other problem is remembering to close the valve between cuts or when I stop to do something.   It then make a mess on the floor.

Just thinking, a lot of us use a solenoid valve in the water line that opens when the auto clutch is engaged.  I would think you might be able to use the same solenoid valve.  To operate you could get a normally open push button switch.  Locate the switch where it would be under your thumb when pushing the mill through a cut.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 03, 2015, 10:15:58 PM
Thx everyone. Maybe I am not as far off in my usage as I was beginning to think. Not much sap in the wood I am cutting so sounds like a steady drip may be most I need most of the time.

Kbeitz,

    That is the way I understand it works on my WM LT35. Not sure about the design of other mills. Not sure if the diesel applicator Joe is describing is factory or custom design. Can't see what kind of mill he is running from his signature line.
Mine is a homemade mill but I copied the general idea from cooks and several members here.

Chuck White

Quote from: Larry on July 04, 2015, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: Brad_bb on July 03, 2015, 11:18:55 PM
Running green hardwood like that I'm filling my 5 gallon jug twice in 7 hours, while cutting a timber and boards from the log.  I reckon you want enough to keep the blade wet, but you don't want it splashing all over the place.  My biggest problem is with adjusting the valve from woodmizer. It's too sensative and it's like either too much or too little often.  My other problem is remembering to close the valve between cuts or when I stop to do something.   It then make a mess on the floor.

Just thinking, a lot of us use a solenoid valve in the water line that opens when the auto clutch is engaged.  I would think you might be able to use the same solenoid valve.  To operate you could get a normally open push button switch.  Locate the switch where it would be under your thumb when pushing the mill through a cut.

Or you could mount the solenoid switch near the blade "engagement" lever so that when the lever is pulled to start the blade, the solenoid switch would be engaged.

I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Dave Shepard

Quote from: Chuck White on July 04, 2015, 11:26:34 AM
Quote from: Larry on July 04, 2015, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: Brad_bb on July 03, 2015, 11:18:55 PM
Running green hardwood like that I'm filling my 5 gallon jug twice in 7 hours, while cutting a timber and boards from the log.  I reckon you want enough to keep the blade wet, but you don't want it splashing all over the place.  My biggest problem is with adjusting the valve from woodmizer. It's too sensative and it's like either too much or too little often.  My other problem is remembering to close the valve between cuts or when I stop to do something.   It then make a mess on the floor.



Just thinking, a lot of us use a solenoid valve in the water line that opens when the auto clutch is engaged.  I would think you might be able to use the same solenoid valve.  To operate you could get a normally open push button switch.  Locate the switch where it would be under your thumb when pushing the mill through a cut.

Or you could mount the solenoid switch near the blade "engagement" lever so that when the lever is pulled to start the blade, the solenoid switch would be engaged.

I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet!

smiley_thumbsup
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Brad_bb

Hmm...I've done a lot of rewiring before and am comfortable in doing and understanding electrical, but I've never used a solenoid.  I'll have to investigate what is available.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Larry

Only two wires.  One goes to frame ground and the other goes to a hot.  We were getting the solenoids off ebay...think less than $20.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Brucer

I've sawn over 20,000 BF without using any blade lube (green, clean Douglas-Fir, 12" to 15" diameter, no pitch pockets.

Last week I used a whole tank to saw 250 BF of White Pine :o.

Blade lube does three things for you:
- keeps pitch from building up on the blade.
- keeps the blade from overheating (and losing tension).
- keeps the tips of the teeth from overheating and getting dull quickly.

If none of the above things are happening, you don't need to use blade lube.


In a pitchy wood, the sawdust on the top of the blade gets pinched between the top of the blade and the bandwheels -- about 10 times per second. It's kind of like making particle board: wood fibre, glue, pressure, and heat. If the buildup get's too thick it has the same effect as taking the set off the inner teeth (and then your blade dives).

On the bottom side of the blade, the sawdust and pitch get thrown off by centrifugal force as the blade goes around the band wheel.

A film of diesel fuel on the blade prevents the pitch from sticking (but it can also mess up your bandwheel belts). Water and soap work OK for some species, but not for others.


Sawing produces heat. In green wood there is enough moisture to cool the blade through evaporation. In dry wood you will need to add moisture through the lube tank to cool the blade. You can tell you need to do this when your blade starts to lose tension in the middle of a cut. It really helps to have some kind of visual blade tension indicator if you saw a lot of dry wood.

Making wide cuts with can also lead to blade overheating issues. Naturally drier woods (like Western Red Cedar) are especially dry in the heartwood. The wider the cut, the more time the blade spends in the heart (where it doesn't get cooled).

Water is the best coolant because it evaporates off the blade quickly and takes away a lot of heat as it does. Emulsions that contain water are nearly as good.

Diesel dripped onto a blade acts more like a lubricant and can sometimes prevent heat from building up in the first place.


In some woods the tips of the teeth can overheat to the point where they dull quickly. As they dull, they generate even more heat. It's even possible to temper a blade down to the point where it won't hold an edge at all (much like "burning" the teeth in the sharpener). Around here Western Red Cedar is perceived to be very hard on blades; some folks consider it to be abrasive. I've found that even a small amount of lube dripping onto the blade makes a huge difference.

This is also true in dirty wood where the lubricant can reduce (to some extent) the abrasion caused by dirt.

Any kind of lube will help in this case. Water sucks away the heat through evaporation. Diesel or an oil emulsion will lubricate the teeth and prevent heat buildup to start with.


Bottom line: there is no hard and fast rule. Learn to recognize the typical symptoms of "problem woods" and adjust your lubricant accordingly.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Brucer

Here's a poor-man's version of the Lube-Mizer (which let's you adjust the lube flow out of your tank and then forget about it).

The Lube-Mizer system includes a solenoid valve, which you can buy from WM as a spare part. It  mounts under the tank tray and there's already mounting holes for it there. There is a pre-installed wire (on my mill at least) for a laser that goes from the control panel to inside the blade drive housing. Since I will never need a laser, I "borrowed" this wire to operate the solenoid. It's very simple to hook the wire up to the forward-reverse drum switch so the solenoid only operates when the head is advancing.

This worked really well but there were times when I wanted the ability to keep the water turned off when in the cut, but without fooling with the control valve. The fix was simple. The control panel on my mill has a knockout for the laser (which I'll never need), so I bought the laser switch as a spare part and put it in the mounting hole. I can use this to interrupt the connection between the drum switch and the solenoid. (Better yet, the symbol on the control panel looks kinda like a stream of water hitting the side of the log ;D).

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Kbeitz

I use a spring loaded ball valve with a packing valve after it to control the amount of drip.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Magicman

The LubeMizer makes it easy so I run ~4 gallons through in a sawing day.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WV Sawmiller

MM,

    Thx for your input. I assume you are cutting a lot of SYP with lots more pitch than most of what I cut based on past input I have seen from you. I don't have the lubemaster on my mill but I gather you can adjust the settings to compensate for different woods.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

Yes, you can adjust the pulse interval sorta like the drip interval without a LubeMizer.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

deadfall

Here's how my mind works.... wondering if there are 12V solenoid valves on any of my junk cars' heaters???
W-M LT40HD -- Siding Attachment -- Lathe-Mizer -- Ancient PTO Buzz Saw

============================

Happy for no reason.

Kbeitz

Quote from: deadfall on July 07, 2015, 05:17:14 PM
Here's how my mind works.... wondering if there are 12V solenoid valves on any of my junk cars' heaters???

E-bay has them for around $15.

Just search 12V solenoid valves
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

deadfall

Quote from: Kbeitz on July 08, 2015, 01:15:14 AM

E-bay has them for around $15.

Just search 12V solenoid valves

I'm a guy who spent three weeks and a few bucks building a tool I could have bought for $30.  I ain't going to get normal at this late date.
W-M LT40HD -- Siding Attachment -- Lathe-Mizer -- Ancient PTO Buzz Saw

============================

Happy for no reason.

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