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Winch performance

Started by metalspinner, August 06, 2006, 08:44:49 PM

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metalspinner

The wire is 1/4" stranded with four foot lead from the battery.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

jokers

Quote from: metalspinner on August 08, 2006, 09:45:57 AM
Jokers,
How can you have such a clear and well written thought at 4:44AM? :D
I was staying at a Holiday Inn last night.  ;D The bed kept me from getting too deeply asleep.  :D

scsmith42

Whoa!  One of your problems is definitely that your wire is too small - sounds like it's 10 and 12 guage - you need to be in the range of 1/0 or 0 - significantly larger. 

A 1/0 wire will have a copper diameter of 1/2" - 5/8".
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Dan_Shade

from the looks of his pictures, the high current wiring is heavier than that. 

Metal Spinner, which wires did you measure? all of them, or the smaller ones?
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

metalspinner

That 1/4" wire is from the battery to the solenoids and the solenoids to the windings.  I will stop at the welding supply today and pick up some 1/0 wire.  Is the welding wire solid or braided?
I will test it out this evening and give ya'll a report.

Rebocardo, I will shorten my cable as well, and put some hooks on the remaining lenghth just in case.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Modat22

remember man that thy are dust.

slowzuki

Past the wiring upgrading don't spend much money on upgrading that winch.  The expression "polishing a turd" would certainly apply.

DC planetary gear winches like that are built for vehicle self-recovery.  At full load many can only pull the cable 20 ft or so before needing a rest.  If you push them the motor will smoke.  Once it has smoked it will never pull as well since some of the windings short out.  Of all the electric winches, the Warn 8274 upright 8000 lb style ones have the highest duty cycles.  They run efficient gear drive reduction in an oil bath and can generally do two full cable lenght vehicle recoveries in an hour.

Beyond this the best choice in electric is worm gear ramsey, tulsa etc type winches that are very slow but will run near continously at full load.

Best of all is hydraulic winches.

Another thing to make sure is you don't have the cable spooled on backwards as planetary winches have a self engaging brake that holds the cable while it is tensioned.  For example if you use a planetary winch to lower a vehicle down a too steep hill you can fry it in a matter of minutes as the motor has to fight the brake the whole time.  Powering out under no load is fine though.

scsmith42

Ditto slowzuki's comments.

Re the welding wire, it is a very fine stranded wire.  Keep your lengths as short as reasonably possible.  You may still need to run dual solenoids in parallel, but at some point you're better off obtaining a higher quality winch rather than continuing to sink $ into it.

Have the welding supply place crimp a ring connector onto the end of the cable so that you can attach it directly to your solenoid.  You may also want to pick up some shorter pieces of the 1/0 to go between the solenoids and the posts on the winch.

Also make sure that your ground wire is 1/0 and well connected at the battery and the winch.

Good luck!  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

metalspinner

Thanks for everything, everyone.

My ultimate goal for this winch is to hook a gas engine to it and be done with the electric hassle all together. But this wiring boost may be enough to get me by until I get around to that project.  Gears and chain and such are a lot easier for me to understand than this inviible electricity stuff. :D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

metalspinner

Well, I just returned from the welding supply with the 1/0 welding cable and terminal ends crimped on.  But now, the terminal ends are to bulky to fit in the switch box without touching each other, and the hole the solenoid post passes through on the terminal end of the cable is to short (or the terminal is to thick).  I need to look around town for a less bulky connection :(....stay tuned.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

scsmith42

MS - you can usually find smaller diameter terminals at an auto parts or electrical supply store, and solder them on instead of crimping them.  The welding terminals are usually pretty large.

Pick up a terminal that has a tight fit from the sleeve to the bare copper wire.

To solder, stick the terminal in a vice, "sleeve" side up, heat the sides of the sleeve with a propane torch and melt some rosin core solder into the sleeve until it is at least 1/2 full.  Then, with the solder still melted, stick the bare end of the welding cable down into the sleeve and hold it for about 30 seconds while the solder hardens. 

I like to only strip enough of the insulation so that I have a close fit between the insulation and the copper terminal.  Then, I'll finish it off by placing about 2" of heat shrink turbing over the sleeve and end of the insulation.

Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

metalspinner

scsmith,
I just tryed something before reading your post.  Let me know what you think...

Two of the solenoid posts have a tight and long (2")path for the cable to get to.  I used a 1/2" copper water pipe, trimmed and shaped the end into a long flat "spatula" shape and drilled a hole for the screw.  I then crimped the round part around the wire and pulled a rubber insulation tube down over the crimped connection.

I did plug it in and touched the switch a few times to make sure it worked.  My concern with this set up is the copper pipe wall thickness.  I only had the thin pipe on hand.  Next time I go to HD I'll pick up the thick wall stuff.

Do you think this terminal connection will work?  I know that water pipe is a different alloy than electrical components.

The picture gallery is down, I guess, so pics can't be shown of the situation.

Thanks! :)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Modat22

I use copper pipe to make electrical lugs all the time. I usually put the wire in the pipe first then hammer the spade end flat then drill it for the lug screw. Prior to connection I sweat some resin solder into the wire.
remember man that thy are dust.

metalspinner

Well, I was quite proud of myself for inventing something new! :D :D :D

Thanks for popping my balloon, Modat22. :D :D :D

I'm glad to know this has been done before.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

sprucebunny

The copper pipe or tubing is a good trick. I've also taken a jigsaw to oversize terminal ends.

Love my hydraulic winch ;D
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

metalspinner

"Love my hydraulic winch "

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah... :) :)


This is what I ended up doing....
1) Replaced the 12 gauge wires with 1/0 welding wire  from the battery to
    the solenoids  and solenoids to the windings.

2) Made custom shaped terminal lugs with 1/2" water pipe to fit into tight space of
    switch box.

3) Shortened 100' cable to 50' on winch.  It kept binding on the spool.  And Rebocardo
    recommended this would be more efficient.


One more question...  Do I need a grounding wire from the battery to the trailer frame? smiley_dizzy

Yesterday I parbuckled two 24" x 8' logs onto the trailer without a complaint from the winch.  So far, so good. 8)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Modat22

If you ever have someone with a pacemaker help you while using the winch then yes you should ground the battery to the frame. If not then just winch to battery both plus and minus will work fine.

remember man that thy are dust.

scsmith42

Metalspinner - Ditto Modat's comments.  Glad to hear that the suggestions are working out.

Nice job figuring out the copper water pipe trick too!

Regards,

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

rebocardo

> Do I need a grounding wire from the battery to the trailer frame

Not really, though if you are ever going to have a gas can on there, yes. I would run a ground from the battery to the trailer frame and to the winch. Ground wire can be the stuff left over from the first winch set up. FWIW: I put a cut off switch on my winches and as soon as I am done, I switch them (+) off. That way the vehicle battery ground becomes the dominate ground again.

Glad to hear it is working fine now  8)

Okay, finally found it without scanning it (copyrights ya know)

http://ecatalog.westmarine.com/t554.asp

For anyone wanting a reference on size vs. capacity.  Your 1/4 cable (probably 6 gauge) was good for about 60-80 amps, so the money you invested in better cables was 100% worth it.

woodbowl

Quote from: sprucebunny on August 14, 2006, 07:19:14 PM

Love my hydraulic winch ;D

Joan, what kind of hydraulic winch do you have, what powers it and how fast can it pull an 800 lb log?  :P
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

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