Re: small diameter tree harvesting

[Ron Wenrich]

I've looked at your website.  Some of the photos didn't download the whole way, so maybe I'm missing something.

The Pack Rat looks like it may be a little tipsy.  It has a narrow front end, like the old farm tractors.  Won't work in some of the more rugged areas.  How much ground clearance?  Any winching capabilities?

I can't see what you are using on your mill.  Is it a circle or band saw?  How large of log can you handle?  Is there a carriage and dogging system?

I do like the idea that you are sawing off the sides instead of the top.  It allows for better slab and board removal, and less problems with sawdust.

[Ron Scott]

You are timely with a process for utilizing small diameter wood. This may become an established policy on National Forest system lands after this past summers western fire season. The heavy fuel build-up from years of good fire prevention by Smokey Bear and stoppage of many National Forest timber harvests by environmentalist appeals must now be delt with. Focus is now being placed on removal of the small wood to help fire proof these forest lands. Your system will have a place in implementing this new management policy.

[whittlerjohn]

This really does work - great!  I love talking about and explaining our light logging system.  The Packrat has been upgraded since we first started the website.  It is a little different now but the idea is that bigger is not better when working with small trees.  My grandpa, Roy Cockle, has another packrat on paper that will have winching capability, loading capabilities, is self leveling and all wheel drive.  The original was made from a rototiller, we replaced the tines with wheels and built a trailer to load the poles on. (5 hp)
The Whittler, portable sawmill, has a chipperhead that takes the face off the log.  The chipperhead has planer knifes that are sharpenable.  The mill does have a carriage and dogging system on the head side.  The chipper head open the face of the log by removing the bark, crook and taper, as the carrage is pushed past the head.  The carriage can be adjusted to fit each cut.  The carriage will adjust from 2 to 10 inches so logs don't have to be sorted. We cut lengths from 1' to 10 ' without extentions. We have no slab wood, only chip(wood and bark). We spread that over the cut area or haul it away for mulch, animal bedding or hogfuel, what ever the need is. After the log is in cant form, it is run through the resaw, which is a circular saw. This has an adjustable fence from 1/2" to 3". Any size lumber can be cut- dry or green- hardwood or softwood.  I hope I have answered your questions.  Like I said, I love to talk logging and milling.  If you leave a phone number I would call you if you are interested in getting a whittler or packrat.  These make good economic sense.  We can use them to farm the unlimited natural resource - small diameter trees.  If we remove the small trees first, the big ones are more accessable.  Thanks for the chance to talk about The Whittler and Packrat. We want to set mills up everywhere possible.
http://www.geocities.com/whittlerjohn/

[whittlerjohn]

I am new to this cyper stuff so please have patience     My grandfather and I have designed and built equipment that we havest small diameter trees with.  We live outside of Oroville, WA and love to give demo for any interested people.  My grandfather had been in the logging industry for 60 years.  He knew the small trees would need to be dealt with and has been working on building sawmills to handle them.  We love logging.  We have a portable sawmill and mini forwarder that we take to the woods and cut 2x4's right in the forest.  Then take the 2x4's to the local mill for sale.  Don't think we can only cut 2x4's tho.  We can cut any deminsion we want.  It is just that the 2x4's are the most basic building unit... so that is what we cut most of.  We have cut house logs, and 6x6's to 2x2's.  Is there anyone that also cuts small trees and had a means to add value?  We do also have lots of firewood for sale.  Visit our website, please give us some feedback.  We want to get ideas for making this 'the standard way to harvest the small trees'.  Just think how easy the bigger trees will be to harvest when the 8" to 3" dbh trees are removed.  It also helps the surpressed trees grow into big trees.  I look forward to your thoughts and response.whittlerjohn

[L. Wakefield]

   As the date approaches to vote on the most recent referendum concerning clearcutting in the state of Maine, I am interested in how this relates to the initial post in this thread. We have strong opinions on both sides of the issue up here; the main agenda being management of sustainable industry and tree growth. Most agree that clearcutting is not a sustainable technique. One 74 year old fella (still running a skidder) told me that when he was cutting wood in the '20s with his dad, their practice was to cut nothing under 9" diameter at chest height. I contrast this mentally with what I have seen of clearcuts, where EVERYTHING is taken down to mulching the biolmass; then spraying with herbicide to prevent the growth of oaks etc so as to get a pine monoculture. I am wondering, where does the practice you cite fit in to this, where you specifically cut the small ones BEFORE you cut the large ones- evidently to make cutting the larger ones easier. You say it releases 'suppressed trees'. Suppressed trees of what diameter? I would have thought that the 8" to 3" trees that you say have to be 'dealt with' could be considered 'suppressed', and valuable timber in their own right.
   I am clearly not seeing this the same way you are. Would you be good enough, perhaps, to enlarge on your description so I have a little better idea what it looks like before you cut, right after you cut, and how you see things working over time?         LW

[Ron Scott]

The best situation is for a true selection cut which works in all diameter classes removing the worst first etc. There needs to be a market for all the "round wood" for this best management situation. It also depends upon the silviculture of the particular vegetative species. Even-aged management (clear cutting)is sustainable forestry in management of fully tolerant species such as aspen.

Maine is facing another Forestry Referendum in this upcoming election. Maine voters will be asked if they favor requiring landowners to obtain a permit for all clearcuts and whether the state should define cutting levels for private forestlands. The referendum will be Maine's third on forest practices in four years. One needs to have understanding as to how forests grow or are managed.

[L. Wakefield]

   Yes, I have to admit that I always have in the back of my mind an image of pine as the desired species. I can see that if what you have is either predominantly or totally another species, other rules may apply. Can you recommend a good website or sites- or basic texts that I could pick up used up in Orono that might give me a clue. I know in Maine the money is in pine, and whether it's cut as pulpwood or lumber depends a lot on what you have.
   When they do commercial (large-scale) clear-cutting they often use herbicides for suppression of broadleaved species- thus leading to a monoculture.
   What's the deal in Michigan? Cut what you find, or do you try to do species like aspen as desirable regrowth, using techniques to select for it?              L

[Ron Wenrich]

Pine is a dirty word in Pennsylvania.  Aspen is even lower than pine.  Pulpwood markets are slim, and most guys just want to cut sawlogs.

There are 2 ways of managing forests.  Even-aged, and uneven-aged.  The even-aged stands are often more monocultural than the uneven-aged stands.  This is due to the more tolerant species living in the understory of uneven-aged stands.  Eventually these are released, and become a dominant part of the stand.

This is where not allowing clearcuts will have a detremental effect on the forest.  Climax forests generally consist of beech, hemlock, maple, and white oak.  The money trees are generally red oak, ash, black cherry and hard maple.  In order to get these species to grow, stands have to be clearcut in order to make conditions favorable for them to grow.

A clearcut does not have to be large.  It can be as small as 1/2 acre to have the same effect.  Spread these out over several rotations and you can have several ages within a stand.  

Take away clearcutting, and your stands will be highgraded.  Good for the loggers, bad for the landowners, and eventually the ruination of the industry.  Highgrading is taking the very best timber, and leaving the rest.  Stuff that is too small or of inferior quality or species.  Some of this is starting to effect the industry in PA.  Just can't find suitable timber thanks to years of diameter limit cutting.

For white pine, I have seen suggestions that it be allowed to germinate and grow for several years in the understory.  The overstory is then removed to release the pine.  Will that be allowed by your referendum?

[L. Wakefield]

   (I wish I had the full text in front of me)..part of it is that it will allow only as much cutting each year as will be replaced by growth in that year- so the concern is if you have a mature stand or a diseased stand- it won't grow- so you can't cut. And this is used as rationale that we must vote against the proposal. But they don't give you the full text.
   If I come across the literature that i do have, I will post more. Soon the point will be moot- about 4 more days.    L.

[Ron Scott]

The Maine proposal would require landowners participating with the state's Tree Growth Tax Program to get a permit before clearcutting more than 5 acres and prohibit them from cutting trees at a faster rate than they grow.

It sounds like you may be doing a lot of conversions to pine. Intigration of all resources needs to be considered for sustainable ecosystems so just pineis not always the best thing to do. A diversity of vegetation is needed, thus pine on pine ecosystems; hardwoods on hardwood ecosystems etc. All products should be removed and not just the quality sawlogs. I realize that this is a market problem, but this is often the landowner's and environmentalists concerns for the unsightly logging, clearcutting, damaged and wasted wood etc.left behind. The nontimber values need to be considered when removing the timber for monitary value. A researcher at the University of Wisconsin is presently devising a method to estimate these nonmarket values. This was done when we did National Forest Plans but its hard to due since timber is the only forest resource  sold in the market place.

[Ron Scott]

In the wake of the disasterous forest fire season this year, more attention is focused on forest practices to achieve fuel reduction such as thiining and prescribed fire. Some are taking lessons from Europe and looking into the feasibility of a four-legged fuel reduction macine: "goats". In northern California it was found that 200 goats can devour unwanted brush in the understory(and everthing else)at a rate of one acre per day. Some companies are leasing goats for understory control.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've owned goats, and they are great for cleaning up overgrown fields.  They love multiflora rose.

The drawback is that they are not very selective.  They will kill anything up to about 8" and work on trees that are even larger.  They love pine and will strip it quickly, including the bark.

Goats will rub the bark off of trees with either their horns or their heads.  They then get to the inner bark and take it down to the wood.

I had 17 goats and they controlled the brush on about 5 acres.  200 goats will eat more than an acre/day.  It is necessary to reintroduce the goats to an area after it has leafed back out in order to kill the unwanted brush.  They will only eat in as far as they can reach.  They're a fairly lazy animal.

Current goat prices are about $50/head if you aren't too fussy about the pedigree.  I'm down to 1, but I'm thinking of getting some more.  Low upkeep animal.

[Jeff]

About these goats.. Up at the cabin in Detour about 7 to 10 acres of the 40 used to be farmed years ago. Now it is covered in tag alder. THICK!
If given a chance could goats completely kill an area like this so something else could be planted?

We have cleared small areas, poisoned the stumps, but they still seem to grow back fast. The best way would probably be a dozer.

[Ron Scott]

I don't know much about goats. Ron W. can probably answer for their affect on tagalder. The USDA-Forest Service has prescribe burned tagalder on the Huron-Manistee National Forests for wildlife habitat improvement.

[Jeff]

Ron,
In a controled burn, would the fire actually kill the tagalder? or is it just a tool to get it out of the way in order to do something else.

This is really not an option there, because the cabin is right in the center of this stuff. Only a (guessing) 30 to 40 ft buffer that we fight back yearly.

   I don't know what it is about the U.P, but things seem to grow twice as fast up there. We were driving on an old two track in a real rocky area up there, and the trail was starting to "peter" out due to trees growing in the road. We got out to take a short walk to see if we were going to be able to continue, and found an 8" dbh balsom fir growing up and through the back window of an old truck cab. I would say the cab was from a 40's era truck, I don't know for sure, as that was all that was there and it was all rust.

Wish I would have had a camera, but that was a pretty good sign to turn around!

[Ron Scott]

Prescribed fire by a slow burn is used to kill and set back the tagalder for planting or natural regeneration of other more favorable species by removing the tagalder competion. Its often used in the transition areas and corridors from riparian area to set back the spreading tagalder. Don't try it though unless you have a trained fire crew and plan for such burning.

There's a lot of history on Drummond Island I'm sure. Also a lot of limestone. It's an interesting place.

[L. Wakefield]

   I had several opportunities to fight wildfire in WV in the 80's, and gained a strong respect for earthmoving equipment for building firebreaks down there.
   When I bought the acreage up here in 95, it was a drought year, and I had just finished reading 'A History of Wildfire in North America' (or some such title)- and so I joined the FD- they trained me to fight structure fires, but more to the point, I got to go to woodland fire training camp a couple of years ago. (Didn't quite qualify for the red card.)
   Some of the trainers/resource people were experienced in doing controlled burns. I'm very interested in it as a tool, but haven't gone any further than weighing it as a possibility. They had contracted to do some for the Nature Conservancy.
   What little they showed us about controlled burns gave me the impression that if you are doing it in a stand of young trees (say 8-12" diameter), you clear the trash branches and debris into big piles in clear areas and set them on fire, standing by with the appropriate control apparatus on a day when (you hope) it won't get out of hand.
   I take it this would be one type of operation, while burning off the scrub as you were discussing would be another type, done before the desired timber is in place.
   Can anyone with some experience jump in here and give me some scenarios?
   I've seen enough uncontrolled woodland fire to understand that the critical variables include air temp, windspeed, ground moisture, and temperature. We've had fires that started in April (courtesy of a local arsonist in one case, and a broken fencepost on an electric fence in another case)- and burned in a brisk wind over damp ground, just burning off the dry leaves on top, barely scorching the trunks, and very easily put out. You turn over the leaves and the bottom layer is still wet. (I'll warn you the piles of horse manure smoulder FOREVER- it's easy to see why that stuff has been used for fuel)
   But bring the air temp up, and dry the ground out a little more, and lower the windspeed enough that the fire stays in one area longer- and you can have fire depth penetrating to mineral soil, and the fire may have a chance to get into the treetops. We've had the helicopters out twice, and you want to talk about pissing in the wind!- when the water gets down to ground level it doesn't go too far.
   We have a couple of gargantuan, ancient forestry trucks- with a couple of chainsaws to cut a path and a madman at the wheel, we've even managed to break an axle..that was a fire way the hell n gone out where there are no roads, smoke spotted by a fire tower from a lightning storm at least 5 days before. (I had heard back when the boys were in cubscouts about fire burning in roots and spreading underground, but that was the first time I'd seen it. I think my count now is up to 4 times.)
   What I saw of the fires out west this year, tho, makes me realize that what I've seen here is absolutely NOTHING. Several orders of magnitude different, and the definition of an 'allowable loss' and containment strategies when you are talking about thousands of acres burning at once is entirly diffent from chasing a fire on 15 acres burning out back of the town dump.   LW

[Ron Wenrich]

Don't know much about prescribed burns, since they don't do them in this state.  The Park Service did one a last year, which was meant to be something like 40 acres.  It ended up burning 2,000 acres.  Park Service didn't learn and gave us the Los Alamos fire this spring.

Tagalder.  Never heard of it, so I don't know if it is something with a different name.

Goats probably will control it.  But, you will have to fence them in, or they will be gone.  You can't use electric fence, since they'll just walk through or under it.  4' woven fence will work well.  There can be no places for them to shimmy under.  They will crawl on the fence and try to knock it down, unless it is really secure.  Mine always loved to get out, so I let them free range.  They hung around pretty good.

On multiflora rose, they ate all the new shoots in the spring.  This kept on knocking the bush back until it gave up.  This took several years.  In some instances, I had to cut the dead growth back so they could get to the green growth.  They also killed all the small red maple and ash.  Didn't touch the cherry.  I imagine they'll eat your tagalder.

In winter you will need to give them hay and ear corn.  You'll also end up giving it to all the deer in the area.  My total feed bill was only a few hundred dollars a year.

You can run buck and doe together, but the buck should be neutered or you'll be eyeball deep in goats.  1 buck can service 30 doe.  Each doe will give an average of 2 kids.  They will throw them about every 7-8 months.  I even had one doe which had 4 kids.  Of course, if you milk them, then the upkeep is much cheaper.  

[Jeff]

I might have to tell a goat joke...

[Ron Scott]

One needs to be highly trained and certified in prescribed fire to keep it within prescription. Most prescribed fires often burn more or less than actually planned. Weather and the limited burning window is often a limiting factor. Lack of knowledge, skills, and experience will quickly get you a Los Alomos. Goats are safer and maybe more predicatable for the individual landowner.

[L. Wakefield]

   I take your point, but i am dying laughing at the idea of a predictable goat. Most goat owners would probably agree, the only predictable thing is that they will get into trouble somehow. I think goats have something to do with Murphy's laws.              lw

[Ron Wenrich]

I had one goat that took off this summer.  I figured it went off to die.  About a week later, the neighbor come over and ask if we were missing a goat.  Turns out the goat ran down to the 4 lane, and was living under the bridge.  It was grazing along the sides of the road, unfazed by the passing traffic.  Real predictable.

Every night when I come home from work, I would do a head count.  The only way to tell whether a goat is missing.  The young ones would get their heads stuck in the fence.  They would do this daily until their horns were long enough to keep their heads inside the fence.

Also had a goat get stuck in a tree!

[L. Wakefield]

   They are also very good at figuring out how to open most gates. And they do love to get into the garden- with an ability to snatch plants even as they are being led back out.   lw

[Ron Scott]

It sounds like the goats are harder to control and manage than prescribed fire. I guess mechanical harvesting of the small diameter trees is the most predictable method.

[Jeff]

also, managing the small trees does not traumatize you when you are twelve years old by jumping off the back of a dog house (goat house) and hanging themselves when you are supposed to be taking care of them for a neighbor!

[L. Wakefield]

   yes, but (rotflmao) small trees can contribute to childhood trauma- like the time I was up in one and the branch broke and I fell on top of my sister..                lw

[Jeff]

Well you have a better story then my older sisters! (<Plural) They use the standard decriptive explantation of thier brother: "We dropped him on his head when he was a baby, that's why he is the way he is" I have 4 sisters and no brothers and they used to tell everybody that. Still do.

[Ron Scott]

Back to the Maine referendum on clearcutting. It has been decisively defeated, but will probably surface again. I'm told that the Sierra Club had backed the campaign with $200,000.

[L. Wakefield]

   I hope this time it will be written more concisely and presented by the writers before all the special-interest groups get a chance to put their own spin on it. There was a grain of truth in each ad on both sides. It is a complex issue. If they will only take into account the justifiable criticisms and pointing out of the measure's shortcoings in drafting the next version, they might have a chance of passing it.
                                LW

[Forester Frank]

My this topic got twisted quite a bit. Sorry I have been absent for a while, but promise to continue checking back regularly.

Okay. Here we go.

Maine and their clear-cut issue:
I'm glad it did not pass and I feel that the public is voting/infringing on private property rights. Update from L. Wakefield may prove differently.

Small Diameter tree harvest. Works well for removing suppressed and intermediate trees in hardwood pole stands and pine plantations. Tree-length skidding can work if the stand is marked properly with good skid trails. As always, the outcome depends on the logger's ability and attention to detail.

Fire: L. Wakefield and others, you may enjoy a story about author xxxxxx Mclain. as a young man Mclain worked as a firefighter out west, and wrote about his adventures. Published with "A River Runs Through It" and other stories. Good book and stories. Check Amazon.com

What else. Oh yes. Goats: All I know is I love goat cheese and that's all I can add.

[L. Wakefield]

   Just back from a road trip to WV..is there a way to recognize a pine ecosystem vs a hardwood ecosystem?- I mean..I could figure it out if the trees are already there and doing well- but what if there was previously a mix of species and then much was cut in a non-discriminating way so that just scraggly stuff is left around to give a hint-would you take a 'giant step' back and look at the surrounding (undisturbed) forestland (should there perchance to be any..)?
   I had initially been taught that one or the other of these ecosystems might be the 'climax' forest, but your use of the terms implies that possibly there is something about climate or topography which will favor one or the other, making it the desirable type to re-plant or to encourage.
  The closest analogy I can think of is the area on my place in WV where it seems logical to put an orchard- ie there is already wild cherry, plum, and one old apple tree growing there. To me that is a sign that fruit-type species are naturally favored in that particular spot- probably by a combination of the lay of the land (it faces south and a bit east) and by prevailing winds and elevation.
   I am familiar with 'pine barrens', and my concept of that in general terms is of a rather poor, sandy soil which would probably require considerable amendment to nurtue hardwoods.
   If you could by any chance outline some general characteristics that would aid in distinguishing the 2 ecosystems (or others), it might help me along here. Thanx in advance. Louise W

[Ron Scott]

The more one knows of the area's landscape ecosystem components the better one can interpret whether it is a hardwood or pine ecosystem. To start, I would review the published soil survey and its interpretations completed by the Natural Resource Conservation Agency (SCS) for your particular area. Landcape ecosystem components are combinations of geologic, vegetative (both overstory and ground flora), soil, hydrologic, and substatum features. Climate, landform, and soil all profoundly influence the plants and animals that inhabit a particular landscape.
A good contact for you to obtain information for your Forest Management in West Virginia would be the Northeastern Area, State & Private Forestry, Morgantown Field Office, Contact: Arlyn Perkey; USDA Forest Service; 180 Canfield Street; Morgantown, WV 26505; (304) 285-1592 or through the USDA-Forest Service web page.

                                                

[Ron Wenrich]

The ecosystem will change over time.  It depends where you are in the entire scheme of things and where you are located.

Pioneer species are trees that are intolerant to shade, and are generally fast growing.  Aspen, eastern red cedar are pretty common in overgrown fields.  

Then the intermediate tolerant species will come on line next.  Oaks, hickory, and the like.  

Finally, the shade tolerant species will dominate.  These are primarily sugar maple, white oak, beech and hemlock.

There can be pine mixed in a hardwood ecosystem as well as hardwoods mixed in a pine ecosystem.  Whichever is the predominant type of tree present would indicate the type of ecosystem.  

Ecosystems can be converted and manipulated.  That is primarily what foresters do.  If you want to grow pine, then hardwoods have to be weeded out.  If you want to grow black cherry, then certain conditions must be present to establish the forest.  What you have now is not what you have to end up with.  To change means investment of time and/or money.  Climate and soils will dictate which type of ecosystems will thrive and which are doomed.  

Your area that has fruit trees already present probably was an orchard at one time.  Land use has changed quite a bit in any area in the past 100 yrs.  Areas that were farms are now forests.

[Jeff]

or casinos...

[Jeff]

This post did not deserve it's own thread, nor does it belong in here, other then the fact that this is the thread which I most noticed the "DASTERDLY SMILY BUG ;x " That big toothed ugly smily turning and tearing up in the most awkward and inappropriate places. Well I smashed him! I think he is gone.

[Tree_Farmer]

Ron says that hard maple requires clear cuts for regeneration.Silvics of North America says that hard maple needs about 60% shade for seedling survival.  I don´t want to play gotcha here but maybe you could comment on the apparent contrdiction.

[Effja Rokawba]

Good point!

Here's your quote Woodtick
**************************
Climax forests generally consist of beech, hemlock, maple, and white oak.  The money trees are generally red oak, ash, black cherry and hard maple.  In order to get these species to grow, stands have to be clearcut in order to make conditions favorable for them to grow.

***************************

SoWASSUP?

[Ron Wenrich]

Sure.  The more intolerant the species, the more sunlight that has to reach the forest floor.  The money trees, especially black cherry requires more sunlight, and needs the clearcuts to regenerate.

But, a seed source must be present before clearcutting, if you are going to use natural regeneration.  That usually means either a shelterwood or seed tree cut.  

Shelterwood would be used on the heavier seeded species, and seed tree for the lighter seeded species.

After a stand is regenerated, then the overstory should be removed to allow the next forest to grow.  Otherwise you get 60 yr old, 8" trees.  Try to release them, and you won't have very good response.

Besides, I wasn't referring to hard maple as one of the money trees, although current markets make me a liar.;D