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Business Opportunity

Started by DanG, May 04, 2006, 02:49:06 PM

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DanG

I'm looking at an opportunity that has come my way, as a possible enhancement to my sawmill income.  Just up the road a piece is a very large mushroom farm, which generates many tons of surplus compost.  They have a network of dealers around the area to help dispose of this valuable resource.  The only dealer in my vicinity has just discontinued selling it, and they are looking for a new dealer.  I have the space and a loader on my tractor, and I'm here most all the time, so I'm thinking about taking it on.

The money is pretty good.  They will deliver a 40-45 yard load to me for $150.  I can easily sell half-yard scoops of the stuff for $15, and the market may well bear $20.  All it entails is dumping a scoop into someone's truck or trailer and holding my hand out for the money. ;D 8)

Now comes the question.  I'm scared to death about bumping somebody's vehicle with the loader and causing a liability problem.  So, I'm trying to come up with a chute of some sort to keep the tractor away from the vehicles.  It needs to be simple, cheap, and foolproof.  I could use a conveyor of some sort, but I'd like to stay away from anything mechanical for cost reasons.  Any and all ideas are appreciated. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

isawlogs

  Charge 12 $ and let them load themselves .  :P ;D

  Or .. build a U shape box openned the width of your loader and give or take 3 to 4 feet high ,  have them drive up to it ... that way you can only hit the box and not the trailer or truck ,
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Tom

Bag it and sell bags. 

Y0u are in peanut country and peanut bags should be available.  Fifty lb. Bags are 50¢ each. Compost is $3.50 a bag. 
Bring the bag back, or bring your own bag and it's $3.00 a bag.  "You Load'em".

Gary_C

Sorry DanG, but Murphy's Law rules here. Thats why we use your name.   ;D

It seems like no matter what kind of equipment you use, occasionally something bad happens. Your best defense is having rules that NEVER are violated. For example never load when there is not enough light. Make all the passengers get out of the vehicle you are loading. Make sure you have a good place to load with plenty of room and solid footing. Don't let anybody else load. Do not get into a situation where you have to turn when you are close to the vehicle, approach in a straight line.

I am sure you can think of more rules. Other than that, dont loose your fear and get complacent. Then if Murphy wins, it is just an unavoidable cost of doing business.   :'(
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

RichlandSawyer

  As the old song goes "give me 40 acres and i'll turn this rig around" but they'll have to hit something on the way around.
most people can barely drive forward let alone back under a shute without knocking it over. I'd lay down the coin to
mr hootie and get a nice conveyor. And plenty of insurance. Sounds like a great opportunity to make a little spending money. GoodLuck


RS
Every log i open up, a board falls out!!!

moosehunter

DanG,
Put a couple of RR ties (or timbers from your mill) length wise for the ustomer to back alongside. The put a larger tie (timber) a pre determined distance from the first tie. The second tie should stop your front tires before any part of the tractor can hit the vehicle being loaded.
Just a thought.
mh
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

Onthesauk

I've been buying cow manure with sawdust bedding from a dairy every Spring for the last five years, six or seven loads each year.  They have a  loader with a 1 1/2 yard bucket they use to load the pickup and have never had a problem.  Key thing I always think is to have a good stable base to work off.  Too easy otherwise for a tire to settle and drop the bucket into something.

My Sister buys mushroom compost for a farm about 60 miles north of me, currently paying $20 a yard.  I'd buy a couple of yards if it wern't so far away.  Wonderful stuff to mulch flower gardes with.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

scsmith42

DanG, I second Tom's advice.

From a business perspective, although slightly more labor intensive, by bagging it and selling the bags you are increasing your market opportunities.  Your potential customers may not all be folks who have a pickup or way to handle bulk compost.   

Local resellers may also be interested in purchasing your bagged product.

You can probably obtain a higher net profit as well.  The only downside is the additional labor to fill the bags.  I'd rather run a loader any day of the week! ;D
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

DanG

Oh, the possibility of bagging hasn't escaped my attention.  The problem there is the drying process.  This stuff will come to me soaking wet and steaming hot, literally.  I would definitely explore the possibility of drying and bagging, though.  I would also offer a "you shovel" option on a "bring your own bucket" basis.

Around here, the primary customers will be gardeners who will use a couple of yards of compost to prepare their gardens.  Most of them will have a pickup or trailer that I can load it into.

One of the problems I have noticed with the people who pick up sawdust is the size of the pickup beds.  A 6 foot bed with a toolbox is just too short to load gracefully, as the loader is 5 feet wide.  The chute would have to taper down to about 3 feet, which would solve this problem as well as some of the other challenges.  The chute would also be a "pull-through" operation with ample turnaround room, so nobody would ever have to back a trailer or truck.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

brdmkr

Dan,

What about a large wooden box with a heavy tarp chute underneath that forms a cone.  Truck backs under the cone.  You dump into the box?  I would also encourage you to figure out a way to advertise and deliver.  It might take more time, but it should reduce your liability.  That stuff really sells well around here.  I think it goes for a 20.00/bucket at the landscape places and they are often sold out.

Let me know if you need any help with your construction.

Mike
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

DanG

Hey MIKE!  I need help with my construction. ;D

Actually, I have a decision to make first.  You're welcome to come down and help me cogitate, though. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

getoverit

I like the idea of a conveyor also. Not only would this eliminate the possability for you to bump their vehicle, but it might also "fluff" the load and make it seem like they got more than they got (if that makes sense?) of course, if they wanted more than one scoop, you could leave the conveyor running while you went to get another scoop to dump into the hopper. It would also be adjustable for height, so no matter what they came to haul with, you could load it with the conveyor. They would only have to pull along side the conveyor chute to load their truck or trailer, then just pull straight off.

by loading it slower with the conveyor, you also wont have to worry about someone claiming you are breaking their springs.. just a slow steady addition to the vehicle.  heck, you might even be able to use the conveyor to load bags.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Jeff

Why would you want to fool a customer into thinking they got more then they thought?

Dang, we spent years loading trucks with sawdust and bark and slabs and what not and things do happen and not always something you can control. Conveyors are a pain in the butt. They break. often.   I like brdmkr's idea a lot. 
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

getoverit

I remember when the vacuum packed coffe came out. Most people wouldnt buy it because it looked like you werent getting a pound of coffee. They would go for the canned coffee instead. A pound of coffee in a can looks like more than a vacuum packed bag does. he same thing goes for the potato chip people filling that chip bag with air. Huge bag-not many chips.  People always seem to go for the "fluffed" stuff.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

brdmkr

Dan

I'll get up with you.  I think the next few weeks are opening up for me.  I exhausted my budget on the concrete slab :o so finishing the shop will have to wait for a little while and I have to send my blades in to be retipped because I found some trash 20 ft up (I need to tell that story sometime, maybe even take a few pics), so I won't be sawing anytime soon.  I also don't think I have any major OT at work until the first week of June.  So, you may be seeing more of me.  I know that makes your day ;D
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Jeff

Sometimes loading pick ups can be enjoyable. I loaded up a pick up fool of sawdust one time for this smart ass guy. He was peaved becasue he had to wait until after lunch to get loaded and there were 3 others in front of him. when he backed into the ramp I was there waiting for him.  He jumped out and I said might want to pull a head a little. He said just dump it. I said, this bucket is 8 feet wide, a buch is going to go right on top of the cab.  He said I waited long enough, just dump it, it aint going to hurt anything.  I said O.K., what ever you say.


You see, this fellow had one of those sliding moon roofs.  It was open. ;D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

I like the conveyor/elevator idea too.  I'd build a hopper at the bottom of the elevator lengthwise over it to dump into with the tractor bucket.  It'd look sorta like a topsoil screen with out the screen ;)  With a valve of sorts on the hopper you could also use it as a bagger.  I'd store the compost stuff under cover to keep it dry and easier and lighter to load and haul.  You could also build a tractor stop out of a big timber/timbers, guard rail etc that would stop the machine from running into the vehicle in case of brake failure etc.  Build it high enough that whatever you are loading is lower than the top of the stop so the loader won't contact the vehicle either.  For those smaller vehicles whip up a smaller quick attach bucket.  Mr Hootie might even have just what you need ;)  I was talking with hay customer today who suggested a sideline for me which is similar.  I'd never thought about it but with the growing horse population around here there is a demand for barnyard cleanup.  He has been paying $175.00 twice a year for guy to load and haul away the horse by products and drag the yard.  No barn cleaning, just loading the pile that's already been thrown out of the barn.  I see possiblities.  A friend of mine who along with his father has a large dairy herd bought a composter a couple years ago to dispose of their manure.  His market has grown to where there own manure supply isn't enough and to meet demand he's having manure hauled in.  Big business 8) 8)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

ellmoe

Jeff, Great story!

You see, this fellow had one of those sliding moon roofs. It was open. ;D
Quote

Dang,   I believe in the KISS method. I've probably loaded over 5000 truks and trailers over the years with a 5 yard, 8' bucket without a problem (Well, there was that time the "feMALE" customer got upset that a tablespoon of dust blew on her hood...). A conveyor or box or whatever is just another device to cause a problem. What if you or they bumped the box and it collapsed on their truck? As to loading short beds, I just have the customer back up to the pile and let the bucket hang over the back of the truck, dumping the excess bac into in the pile. Another option is the ,"here's a shovel, load it yourself" method. This is for all the DYI ers out there. :) Bags are a good idea, let them fill the bags themselves when they come. This will save you time, and no complaints about a partially filled bag. Alot of people will have cars and only want a small amount. You can make more profitr per yard by the bag.
   Good luck, it sounds like a good business for you. You seem to be a natural at "spreading the manure around"! ;D

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

woodmills1

I guess this deceidly low tech but why not build a small dirt ramp for your loader to drive on.  If the machine is just a bit higher the chance of hitting the side is reduced, though this won't fix the spillage idea.  I have seen videos where old timers used a ramp to roll logs up onto trucks.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

DanG

Lots of good thoughts here....keep'em coming. :)

I'm leaning towards the idea that brdmkr has, except the chute would be made of sheet metal, which I already have.  Just gotta build it where it can't clog up.

This stuff fluffs up pretty well when you dump it, anyway.  A lot of folks will eyeball the bucket and say, "Let me have 3 scoops."  Then when the first one goes in the truck, they'll say, "Thats enough! :o"   They really get an appreciation of how much they got when they get home and start unloading it with a shovel. :D :D

The bag idea is great, but it is time consuming.  The attractive part of the whole project is that it doesn't take much time.  The stuff has to be dry for bagging, too, because of the weight.  Also, folks would expect me to load the bags for them, and my back ain't gonna take much of that.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Engineer

Used to be a big mushroom farm near me, I'd go up there with various trucks anywhere from a short-bed pickup to a one-ton stake-body dump, and it was always the same - five bucks for them to load it up full, free if I did it myself.  They used a farm tractor and a loader. 

People generally understand that if you're dumping a load of wet smelly in the back of their truck, it's gonna make a mess.    As for bumping the vehicle, carry some insurance and be as careful as possible.  You can't avoid 100% of the casualties unless you don't take on the job.

Last time I went up there, they had closed the farm, still had a huge pile left.  There was a family that must have been renting a house on the property, they were charging five bucks a load if you loaded it yourself with a shovel, the tractor was gone.  The pile didn't last more than a couple of weeks.

metalspinner

Loading the bags can be easier if you built a bag holder that would hold about a dozen or more bags open at once.  Then fill the bags with your loader.

I was thinking of a long pit the customer would drive through.  The top of their bed would be at ground level.  But then you would have to worry with the whole thing colapsing :o

When loading with a fork lift or anything like that, I've always approached the vehicle from the downhill side so I wouldn't accidentallty role into it when releasing the break.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

SwampDonkey

I here ya Dang on the bag'n and carry'n and sac'n end of it. My poor father would get someone come for a 50 lb bag of taters, which he only charged $6.00 - 10.00 for the choicest tubers, hand selected, from the pile. Some fart would want him to go bag'm by hand, carry the sac to the car, and I bet if they wanted them cooked he'd end up doing that if he lived next door. :D There are some odd balls and lazy 'home soldiers'.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DanG

Yep, and I do still have a sawmill to run, as well.  I can make several $4 boards in the time it takes to bag a $2 sack of poop. ::)

I still gotta think on this thing a bit.  The folks that just got out of it run a small wholesale nursery, and they say it was taking up too much of their time.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bro. Noble

I think you are worrying too much about bumping their pickup,  but then you know the people you would be dealing with better than I do.  Seems like if people were willing to put that kind of smelly nasty stuff in their vehicle,  they wouldn't be too awful pidky.

As far as selling packaged stuff,  how about using 5 gal plastic buckets?  Any dairyman accumulates a bunch of them from buying cleaning products and teat dip.  I'm always looking for someone to give some to.  Right now we probably have 50 or 60 to give away.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Corley5

Have a deposit on the buckets to encourage them to bring them back to be refilled :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Bro. Noble

This thread reminds me of an experience I had as a youngster:

My folks left south MO. in the mid 50's when Dad got a job at Caterpiller in Peoria.  We lived in a subdivision where the soil had all been pushed off leaving a steril clay.  Making a garden is something country people in the Ozarks do,  and the folks did their best with what they had to work with.  After a few years of very limited success. Dad got a brillient idea while driving by the Peoria Stockyards ::)  He decided that the pile of stuff where the truckers cleaned out their trailers after hauling a load of hogs to slaughter would be just what his garden needed 8) 8)

Only one trip in the family auto with the trunk full of bushel baskets of dirty sawdust and straw drew strong protests from the fellows in Dad's carpool :o :o :D

I had just turned 16 and was easy to talk into jobs that involved driving,  so plan 'B' was adopted.  We hooked the aluminum fishing boat behind the car and I drove it through Peoria filled with Pig manure :D :D  At each stoplight,  I drew a lot of flies and dirty looks :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Tom

what I want to know is..   If you store some of it in the barn with something to keep it damp, will it produce another batch of mushrooms?

Engineer

Tom,

Short answer to that is no.  I've tried.  The compost somehow becomes exhausted of spores (mycelium?) after which it is removed and disposed of.   I suppose you could re-introduce mushroom spores after proper processing and sterilization but it's probably not worth it.

I know the compost I used to get consisted of whole grain wheat, barley, some straw and horse whiz.   I wouldn't want to be a mushroom....  :( ;)

Ianab

Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2006, 01:57:14 PM
what I want to know is..   If you store some of it in the barn with something to keep it damp, will it produce another batch of mushrooms?

Probably not, the mushroom live on the decaying vege material in the compost, once they have used all the usefull bits there's not much left for them to grow on. Putting more spores in wont help. Using it to seed some fresh compost would probably work though.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

getoverit

can you mix your sawdust with it and sell that as mulch as well?

I'm still trying to sell this 10 cubic yards of sawdust... maybe somebody will happen by that needs it ;D
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Ron Wenrich

I tried that a number of years ago.  I had a Dustbuster, which is basically a debarker head that you pulls the slab through the machine.  It produced a very coarse sawdust.

I bought a load of spent mushroom soil and mixed it, about half and half, if I recall.  It turned the dust a lot quicker than other composting methods.  I did get a few mushrooms off of the mix, but I don't know if they were the good type or something els.

I'm not so sure how good the stuff is for gardens.  Isn't most of the organics already spent? 

I used to deal with a guy who marketed sawdust.  He was going to try to compost it.  But, he said that he had some stuff that would make gardens grow like wildfire.  Turns out that it was dust from particleboard, which is high in urea.  He said it really grew tomatoes.   :D

We used to sell bark mulch and load it with a bucket put on the forks.  We never had a problem with hitting a truck or trailer.  You get good with practice.  The biggest problem is when all the mulch comes out in a bunch and hits the truck bed.  It sets some of those smaller trucks down pretty hard.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

DanG

The stuff we get here is still pretty hot.  It releases a big cloud of steam when you scoop it up.  It actually works best in the garden if you let it sit for a year before using it.

Remember the pics of my garden last fall?




I grew all that and more with one small scoop of this compost.  The white dot is a 5 gallon bucket. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

SwampDonkey

They do use sawdust on fields planted with blueberry to sour the soil. If you plant blueberries on a good field around here they don't do anything and barely survive. A blueberry has to be one of the hardiest plants and I know it ain't the climate. I sampled the soil here on the house lot a few years ago and it was richer than potato fields and the blueberries I planted never lived. What I'm always afraid of when using sawdust is some bad grub making their home in it and eating the roots.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Onthesauk

Each Spring I put down about 6 oz of azalia/rhododendron food on each of my blueberry bushes and then 4 to 6 inches of sawdust and water it all in.  I'm gardening in clay which is not suppose to be the best for blueberries but they do great with all the sawdust.  I used some manure and sawdust mix one year when I was first getting them established but all that did was attract the robins and they then hung around and ate the berries.  Still haven't found a good way of keeping the birds out.

Steve
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

Buzz-sawyer

Knowing that your fire ring needs tended and the fridge in the back needs emptied, recycled aluminum needs tended too, you are plenty busy....
Being that I am lazy at heart, and always trey to do it simply....why not get ahold of a hay bale conveyor....around here they are usually free or cheap.
Then build a pit with a tapered walled shoot...that can be opened closed....
these conveyors are for small square bales...and run on a 1-2 horse electric gearmotor...
Have it set up drive through style...no backing up...pull up to line hit switch and put out hand.
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Cedarman

We load all kinds of mulch, logs, and lumber on trucks and we unload 3 or 400 pickups a year of cedar logs.  Keep your loader clear of the vehicle and slowly empty the bucket.  Insurance is a must to let you sleep better at night.  You are right to be concerned about it.  But keep it simple. You will get more comfortable as you do it. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Skytramp

simple, fix the brakes,
     Or you could put down a wooden guard rail for them to pull up beside and to be doubly sure, affix another one for a stop block for the front tires of the tractor.
Sky
Growing old is inevetable, Growing up is optional

dancan

just get them to sign a waiver before they enter your loading area
one of the farms that i buy drop apples from dump the bins in a hopper set up and then you back under it and load apples roll , i don't know if compost would slide.

DanG

Thanks for all the advice and ideas everybody!  But, I've decided not to get into this right now.  I talked to the guy that's getting out of it again, and his reasons for getting out are my reasons for not getting in.  He runs a wholesale nursery with no walk-in customers, so he asked compost customers to call before coming by.  They WILL NOT do it, but just come on over when they see fit.  The guy makes a lot of deliveries in his core business, so he isn't always there, and folks raise all kinds of hell if they come by and the gate is closed.  I'm not always here either, and don't have any set business hours...never open and never closed.  I don't need the grief. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

crtreedude

Good plan DanG (or is that good DanG plan?)

I always consider it a success to kill a business plan. I know that is strange - but business ideas are a dime a dozen - or so they seem.

Recognizing one that ain't worth it is worth a LOT - both in time and money.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Tom

It sounds like the price would be right for fill and pasture improvement though.  Can you get the same price on a "just call" basis and not be in a retail business to sell it?   

A little, here and there, pulled around with a box blade could sure make for some pretty pastures in the future.

DanG

Yes I can, and I am considering just that.  The biggest problem right now is, how to get that semi-load onto the property.  I have to be real careful pulling my 20' gooseneck trailer in.  I gotta extend the culvert in a big way before any big rigs can come in.  The road is only about 20' wide, with deep ditches, so there isn't much swing room.  When I get that worked out, I'll go ahead and buy a load, then just sell to friends and sawmill customers.  I won't have any trouble getting my money back, and have a big pile left, to boot.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

UNCLEBUCK

You run a nice garden DanG , looks nicer than the victory garden show. It takes a wise man to change his mind  ;) I guess it would be fun to buy the stuff on site and sell it at the same spot and give a small comission to the first owner but then the distance everyday might make it wrong and then the previous owner might see you making good coin $$$ . 
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Rockn H

Dang, I bet I could pull my 53' dry van in towards the new house place and back it right back across the road and right down beside the barn towards the tracks. :)  That is, if there ain't a scrap pile in the way. ;D   A 22 yard dump should be able to make the turn through the gate if he (or she) ::)  were allowed to hit it at an angle before they had to straighten up.  Let'em make a 45deg turn instead of a hard 90. 

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