Tree Removal Business Questions

opensky · October 25, 2013, 11:01:13 AM

Hi All, I currently work full-time, from home as a project manager and have a small cow-calf operation. I'd like to start farming "full-time" and generate additional income from another source.

I'd like to build a farmstead in the next few years so my thought was to start a tree removal business. I can take trees that someone wants removed and either transplant them on my farm or someone else's or I can cut the trees down and use them for fence posts, lumber, firewood, mulch, etc. I can either use the byproducts on my farm or sell them. To buy the equipment I need outright would be pretty expensive ($3-5k for a small tree spade, $3-5k for tree shear, $15-20k for a skidsteer, $20-30k for a big tree spade, $3-5k for a portable sawmill, $5k for gooseneck flatbed, and the list goes on). But I could start out with a chainsaw mill rig and rent a skidsteer and spade or shear. I'm usually not afraid of spending money to make money but I'm becoming much more debt averse as I get older.

I'm in southcentral/eastern Nebraska so there's not a ton of trees but there's always someone trying to get a few more tillable acres or someone who let their pasture go and it's now full of cedars/locusts. There's no short supply of pasture clearing people out there but it seems like most of them don't even bother to use the cut trees for anything. Just shove them into a draw.

I like the idea because it makes something out of nothing since most other removal businesses would have pushed the trees in a pile and left them or burned them. Not to mention the added value of being able to use most of the products myself. So I realize value without having to market/sell anything. I have access to a very good grant writer and thought about trying to get at least one piece of equipment through a grant.

I'm not real well-versed in trees or wood but I'd like to be. And I feel like this is a worthwhile opportunity that is worth the effort. Even if the "business" didn't go as planned, I would still have the knowledge and hopefully some paid off equipment to use on my own endeavors.

A couple questions that have come to mind: What are some good uses for western red cedar trees and black locust trees? Those are going to be the main trees cleared out of pastures and I'd like to know what I can all use them for to add value to my business. Also, what about cedars that were cut down a year or two ago? Can I still use them for the same purposes as freshly cut cedars?

I know this is a general question with a lot of variables but I need to get an idea of time it requires to do some of these things so I can try to come up with per hour profit. For instance: about how long would you say it takes to transplant a 6' cedar? or a 12' diameter oak (excluding time between locations)? How long does it take to cut and load a hundred cedar trees with a skidsteer and shear? How long would it take to turn those hundred cedars into fence posts or shakes or mulch? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I can make educated guesses but I, inevitably, always guess low. Even when I think I'm being conservative.

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks in advance for any input!

Magicman · October 25, 2013, 11:04:12 AM

I am really of no help to your questions/ambitions, but Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

beenthere · October 25, 2013, 11:25:39 AM

Another welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Considerable info in past threads, and would be good reading for you by doing some searching. Cedarman, Kansas, and a few other members' will come up and be good sources of info.

But on first blush, given some reading on this forum for a few years, I'd suggest you first get your feet wet with the log sawing of cedar and possibly the locust. Much of making a business out of this will be how much you will enjoy the handling, sawing logs to lumber, dealing with the products and waste, etc.

The business side will likely take shape as you find you enjoy the adventure.

dboyt · October 25, 2013, 12:39:54 PM

Welcome to the forum! There are some experts on cedar, and hopefully they'll chime in. Sawmill would be a good start, since you likely won't be able to transplant anything big enough to mill. I think you're a little low on your sawmill estimate. It will likely become the real moneymaker, so don't handicap your business with a mill that won't be up to the job. $8k to $12k will get you started with a decent manual mill, and hydraulics would be better if you can afford it (or get a mill that you can add hydraulics to later). There is usually a good market for cedar-- fence posts for the small stuff, lumber for larger logs. You'll have to check about markets for black locust, but it is a very durable wood. There are a couple of concerns:

Is there a market for cedar or black locust transplants in urban areas? Black locust has small thorns (nothing like honeylocust, though), and many people find the dropping seed pods objectionable. There may even be city ordinances against planting some species.

Can you clear enough land to make it worthwhile for the landowner? Try walking up to a few landowners, explain that you'd like to transplant some of their trees, and watch their reaction.

Cedar will be fine for posts and lumber even after it has been down for a few years, but it tends to get harder to mill as it ages. Heartwood is the rot resistant part. Are you thinking about a post peeling machine? There is usually a good market for cedar lumber, but you need to start out with at least 12" diameter (small end), 8' logs to make milling worthwhile. In my experience, de-limbing an open grown cedar tree is about like trying to pet a porcupine.

Do a web search to find out what your neighbors in Oklahoma are doing. Here's a couple of web sites to get you started.
http://oklahomacedarharvesters.com/index.php/about-us
http://www.okcedar.com/

Good luck, and keep us posted. I'm with you on this... I hate to see good trees go to waste!

PC-Urban-Sawyer · October 25, 2013, 12:40:06 PM

OpenSky,

Well, that's an interesting and ambitious plan you've laid out.

I don't know a lot about most of it, but here's one thought...

You should seriously consider getting a bandsaw mill, with hydraulics and setworks. Using a chainsaw mill may be fun for a log or two but you will find it is very slow and uneconomical for the business plan you're developing.

Best of luck and be careful!

Herb

scully · October 25, 2013, 08:46:55 PM

I am a tree removal guy . I climb and rope tree's down . This alone is serious work . Clearing is another thing felling and skidding is a whole diferant world . Milling is always a great way to make use of any log with yeild . Replanting ? Okay so up to what 4" in dia. ? Just a loose tally of your figures seems a bit light for the equipment you need . If you plan on doing it all ,then you need to invest wisely . Replanting the species you mentioned may not be all that profitable seems how that type of stuff is growing every place around there . Personaly I would start out bare bones , get a low end band mill for now , find a way to transport loads of the logs you clear and remember clearing is brush too so do you need a chipper and a bush hog ? A tractor with forks and a log winch is a must . Heres the thing ...at the end of the day can you do everything to completion start to finish ? This type of work will own you ! I guess it is nice to diversify but at what point is it just to darn much ? My advice , get a couple real good chainsaws . and a way to haul logs and brush /chips etc . see how many jobs you get small scale ....Maybe get a basic mill . If it blows wide open for you then great ! But I wouldn't wanna be hung with a huge investment to find out that it's not all it appears that it was .I have done side work my whole life ,big side work and I ain't rich yet....

thecfarm · October 25, 2013, 08:55:01 PM

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you will need some help to keep all that equipment moving too. Good luck to ya.

5quarter · October 26, 2013, 12:48:48 AM

Open sky...welcome. You'll probably be cutting Eastern red cedar and Honeylocust if your clearing pasture land. most open grown cedar is all branches, no trunk. Good for chipping but not much else. WRC grows as an ornamental around here, but that's about it. Folks around here use Mulberry, Bur oak and Hedgeapple for posts. Honeylocust is a real (and I mean real) pain to handle, but it makes fabulous lumber. I saw a lot of it.
There's a guy in this area that does land clearing. He doesn't do any processing himself; he sorts and sells all his logs. Find and get to know all the players in your area. That will help you get a much better idea of what the markets are and where the opportunities are at.

Go Big Red! ;) ;D

bandmiller2 · October 26, 2013, 08:00:37 AM

Welcome Skyguy,for starters I would get a decent mill and cut the logs the pasture clearing folks left,if just pushed into a gulch they have little value to the owners.Cheapest transport is a light truck and trailer with winch. Frank C.

Chuck White · October 26, 2013, 08:44:22 AM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, opensky!

Leigh Family Farm · October 26, 2013, 10:24:36 AM

I second the idea of starting smaller than you've spelled out. From the replies it seems that a way to haul the logs after a land clearer has come through would be the most economical way of getting the logs. You could work with several land clearers and offer to haul for them as long as they cut the trees to your specs. Just a thought...

Also, look at your possible outlets for all your products (mulch, chips, posts, fencing, lumber, etc.). Almost anyone can cut lumber, make mulch, and produce fencing...its the selling and marketing that destroys most people.

As to your original questions, why not rent a skid steer and tree spade then ask a local farmer if you be able to transplant some of his trees for him? Don't look to get paid for this venture, its all about research and seeing if you can reasonably make the idea work. If it works, great, then you can go forward. If it doesn't, you're out $1000 instead of $35,000.

Best of luck to you and welcome to the forum!

bill m · October 26, 2013, 08:34:33 PM

opensky, welcome to the FF. A few things you need to consider in your plan. First, not every job will generate a useable byproduct. In the tree removal business, to be successful you need to consider everything you generate is waste. Anything of value ( firewood, sawlogs, clean chips you can sell, etc.) should be considered a bonus and not relied upon to make ends meet. A lot of times you will be asked to remove trees that have no value and now they become a disposal problem. This is something that needs to be considered when quoting a job. Also a chipper is a necessity when doing tree work. Trucking brush is very time consuming and will eat into your profits quickly. Good luck with your endeavor.

opensky · October 28, 2013, 10:14:12 AM

Thank you all so much for the replies! There has been a lot of valuable insight shared and I greatly appreciate it. I've contacted the closest person with a mill to me. He's been doing it as a hobby for the past 20 years and has agreed to let me observe and participate the next time he does anything. I'm going to reach out to a few others in the area as well.

I like the idea of starting out with trees that others have cleared. Although buying new toys is always my preferred method, I definitely think renting equipment is the way to go for now. I'm hoping to work out a deal to be able to rent a sawmill from someone until I get a good idea of what best suites my needs. I just stumbled across someone the other day that had some cedar trees transplanted into a windbreak. So I'm going to try to track down the owner of the tree spade and see if he has a business or if he's just a farmer with too much money.

I'm extremely busy right now so progress will be slow but I promise to keep you all posted as things develop. I look forward to more feedback! Thanks Again!

Cedarman · October 29, 2013, 07:59:41 AM

When you use a tree spade, you leave a nice big hole. That hole should be filled in with dirt from somewhere. I sold about 20 cedar trees to a landscaper that had a customer. The trees were about 6 to 8' tall with a stem about 3". The holes left were over 2' deep and conical. I was paid well for the trees. It took a good bit of dirt to fill the holes. Holes left in fields could be a major liability.
I know there are areas of NE that has a lot of sawlog cedar. American Wood Fibers has a plant that makes shavings. At least they did at one time. Look for cedar that is thickly grown so that there are poles of cedar grown in among hardwood that have decent sawlogs. The upland bushy cedar has too many limbs and too much taper to be economical to trim and use. That is why these are mulched as a whole tree or pushed in piles and burned.
Visit a cedar mill and see what type of logs are being sawn.
I would think you could sell all the cedar you could saw into posts and lumber. We have shipped several loads of 4x4 posts to NE from IN.
There are markets for 2" to 5" straight poles with little taper and 8' long, but you will need to get tractor trailer load quantities.
Or you could get into the rustic furniture business.
Think of your business as having 3 parts. Supply, processing equipment, sales and marketing. You need to research markets and then find supply of logs will support the markets. Then find the equipment that will process into the desired product.
We spent over a year researching in Ok before starting our mulch business. That even including renting an airplane to see if we could find where the cedar was in large enough volumes to support our plans.
You will have to deal with the cedar and other trees that you have in your area. You are stuck with those. Knowing what your supply is will be the first step to supplying the markets you find.
Don't get in a rush. I don't know about NE, but OK is producing 700 acres of cedar per day over and above what is being cut and removed. So there should be plenty of supply.