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Best and Worse of 2009

Started by CLL, March 03, 2009, 07:39:50 PM

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CLL

Got my copy of Consumers Report yesterday on the best and worst of 2009 cars, almost without exception all the best cars were made by Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai. Here's the question I have, even though these three companies are making cars in the US, why is the quality still way superior to GM, Ford, and Chrysler?  I understand quality control, but why would it be better for the former and not the latter?  The US companies have known for years that their quality was inferior, why not look at how the better companies make cars and make adjustments? I personally think it was more attitude of executives, we know what you need, not what you what.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Chevrolet truck, and probably will never buy anything else. It just aggravates the crap out of me that when you look at why people aren't buying US companies cars the the first thing mentioned, NOT RELIABLE, poor fit and finish, fuel mileage. My personal opinion is throw all the top people out, take away all bonuses, including stock options, and tie all their pay to how well the company is doing. That includes bankers as well.
Too much work-not enough pay.

Polly

i personally think the big 3 stragity was make them cheep and they would sell more of them it worked for a long time until people like me got sick at the sight of them i owned several of them over the years and i serously doubt i will ever get over the remberance of some of the crap they pulled on me  :( :( ::) ::)

Clark

Part of the problem you're seeing is that they are looking at car companies as a whole.  There are several American made cars that are getting good reviews and seem to be up to the standards of the Japanese.  I think the new Chevrolet Malibu and Ford Focus rank up there but when the rest (or most) of the brand isn't so hot, they get buried with them. 

If you like more accurate ratings on vehicles, down to the year, make and model of each car, check out http://www.truedelta.com/.  If you become a member you can get much more up-to-date reports of reliability (actual reports of trips to the shop).  Being a member only requires replying to four emails a year and reporting when your vehicle goes into the shop.  Takes about five minutes a month.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

TexasTimbers

I am asking. Don't shoot.

How do the unions of the foreign-based companies stack up against the UAW?

And if that is not the big issue, are the pensions being collected by so many retired UAW members causing their former employers to cut costs elsewhere in order to meet contractual obligations to the retirees?

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Dan_Shade

the fixed costs of the big 3 are pretty high. 

You're probably pretty close to the causes, Kevin.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

beenthere

Quote from: CLL on March 03, 2009, 07:39:50 PM
Got my copy of Consumers Report yesterday on the best and worst of 2009 cars, almost without exception all the best cars were made by Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai. ...............

IMO, this country would be wise to not pay much attention to Consumers Report. It is a paid-for group that has since its beginning, picked foreign built cars. One of the first eggs it layed, were the bad rap the GM X cars received. I ran three of them (Citations) and they all went nearly flawlessly for 150,000 miles each (except for the CV joints  >:( ). There are other examples too of great US products that CR would run into the ground. If one looks at their financing and mode of operation, it is not the unbiased group of data collectors that they try to act like. But, many consumers think they are the bible. I think they are a good source for getting ideas, not the best or the poorest products.  My 2 cents.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

I bought a Toyota pickup after running several S-10 pickups.  I had a choice of getting a truck made in the US or one made in Mexico, so I bought a Toyota.  Many of the foreign cars are made in the US.  Where do the parts come from on most of the cars, American or foreign?

I think it comes down to company philosophy.  Buy American has pulled many of the Big 3 along, but that crowd is now a dying breed.  The new generations don't have that loyalty, so the American cars have to compete even more than in the past.  The cheaper cars just don't stand up to the foreign made cars.  Where's today's market, cheap or expensive?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom Sawyer

Here in Ontario Honda and Toyota workers are not union.  Their wages are somewhat lower than the unionized GM, Ford, and Chrysler workers, but efforts by the unions to sign them up have failed.  I guess when you are happy with how your company treats you there is no motivation to pay monthly fees to a union.

DanG

I'm not convinced that the foreign makes are any better than the cars the "Big Three" are putting out.  There have always been certain models of every make that turned out to be "a good'un", and every make has turned out some dogs.  Our "good" car is a 2000 Plymouth Grand Voyager with about 130k on it and it runs and drives like a brand new one.  I haven't owned a foreign make in a long time, so all I can go by is what I see settin' beside the road with the hood up, or who is laying down a smokescreen.  Proportionate to their total numbers, I seem to notice an awful lot of Mercedes and Volvos in that group. ::)

I readily concede that the Big Three have been less than responsible, but there are also some strong mitigating circumstances.  Actually, I'm pretty amazed that they even still exist with the way the Unions have bled them.  I also don't completely blame their current CEOs, since none of them have been there more than a few years.  The suggestion that they don't build what people want is pure hogwash.  What people want is easy financing, and the ability to buy more than they can pay for, and that's what they've been doing.  The current problems they're having have nothing to do with cars.  It's all about the money, and the fact that the financial world has cut off the easy bucks, IMHO.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Lanier_Lurker

I agree about Consumer Reports.

They are neither objective nor impartial - contrary to their claims (based on not accepting advertising).

ErikC

  My truck is a 2000 F250 diesel. It has 225,000 on it, and I haven't spent more than 3000 on repairs. I got it new, and have done the maintenence, but I tow heavy trailers a lot and drive on logging and ranch roads all the time. It still looks great and drives like always. This truck barely gets mentioned in consumer reports though. My wife has had 2 VW cars, a 2003 and 2006, love them both, they got bad reviews in Consumer Reports. We don't pay a lot of attention to them anymore.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

CLL

I know CR isn't the bible of things, I take everything with a grain of salt. DanG your right too, Mercedes and Volvo both got bad ratings on MOST of their cars. I've had good cars and bad cars of most brands as I drive over 100,000 miles a year, and it don't take long for the flaws to start showing up,usually after the warranty has run out :D. I think the biggest trick is keeping up with proper maintence. Pay me now or pay me later is right, better a little at a time than a lot later.
Too much work-not enough pay.

Kas

Not sure how this fits in with best and worst, but as for vehicles, I've been all over the map, and anymore it comes down to dealership support.  I learned from a VW dealer back in 1975 what a difference a truely good dealership makes.  Happened just last year too; never owned a Ford, but the dealership I found made a huge difference in my opinion, so now I own a Ford, and the support has been excellent.  At least as long as I am still in this area I live in, GM and Dodge will not see anymore of my money, dealership support is just not there, too many fights and arguments.

As for the best and worst of 09, I don't see things changing until prices of necessities stableize; trying to live within a budget when such necessities as energy are priced as commodities just cannot work.  Most people can handle moderate, yearly inflation, but not sudden deal busters as what we saw happen to fuel, electricity, and gas.  In this context I am speaking of people who do try to live within their means.  It's tough when they keep messin with my "means."
Scott

scgargoyle

Many of the auto factories in the southern US aren't union, either. The pay at BMW in SC isn't all that great, but they must treat people well, because there's a line to get in. I've noticed that although Japanese cars seem to be more reliable during their 'normal' lifespan, you never see any old ones around. After about 10 years, they seem to disappear, while the older Detroit iron is still chugging. I don't know if the Detroit iron is built heavier, or if the price of Japanese parts is too high for your average shade-tree.
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

SwampDonkey

I'm simply amazed at all the Toyota cars and trucks around here. We "used to have" tiny Toyota dealerships compared to GM/FORD/Chrysler. Now you don't even have to get out of the car when you go for an inspection in the Toyota dealership. The garage door raises like going into the grocery and all you do is sign in for your appointment and sit in the lounge. Just 3 years ago the Toyota dealers where really tiny and hardly any selection on the lot. I go to a store and there is a Toyota in front of me and on both sides now pretty much every time. The domestics are selling to as the dealers are not closed up at all, but used to not hardly see a Toyota back in the 80's. Most road engineering firms drive all Ford and GM pickups and the forestry companies are driving Ford and GM, the contractors are driving Toyota Tacomas. I would have bought one, but at the time they only had V6 in Canada, now last year they brought 4 cyl. back, but i had already gotten my RAV4 by then. I can go anywhere, even across beaver ponds. ;D

The Marketing board purchased a 2000 model Tacoma and there was some thing the company issued a recall on and they gave them $15,000 for the truck last year. It was $30,000 back in 2000 including tax. It had over 200,000 km. Quite  difference yes, between Km and miles as we know. But still. They said mileage did not matter on the recall. Now that's standing behind your product. The best you'll here from GM around here is, "can I sell you a new model, would you like to see  what we offer this year?" They certainly would never buy it back.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

TexasTimbers

scargoyle you make some good points for thought. I been thinking about it since I read your post. I've come to the conclusion that it is demand. Lack of it.

Think about how the foreign imports looked from the 70s, 80s and even into the early 90s most of them were pretty bland or even ugly. Those old Datsun trucks are butt-ugly but I'd love to have one and prolly you would too. But you and me aren't going to affect the market much.

Most Amricans want slick-looking cars. The imports of the last 15ish years look pretty good. But the ones before that are ugly. This theory might be all wrong but that's all I can come up with. I know when you go to a auction whether a blue-collar auction or a high-end auction, you see American almost exclusively. Why? Demand. If dealers could sell old imports you can bet they'd be in those auctions.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Slabs

I couldn't help but zero in on Ron's comment about "where the parts came from". 

Just about all the problems I've had in the last 15 years on my Blazers was with parts that were made by an after-market vendor, not the mainframe automoblie.  It has had me wandering about where the problems originated for a long time.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

Larry

We have a quite large extended family.  At any one time I would guess a dozen or more Saturns are owned by family members...mostly by the female side cause they are a bit small.  Most have more than 150,000 miles when sold or traded with little or no repairs.  I sold Kathy's with something north of 130,000 miles and we made friends with the buyer...they have more than 200,000 miles on it and they can't believe how much money they saved because of it.

So when GM is asking for bailout money why are they talking about selling off Saturn?  Because they can't make money on a cheap car?
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

TexasTimbers

When I bought my F350 it was used and had like 160K on it but it looked new. He used to to run from Kansas City to Dallas twice a month hauling vinyl fence I think it was.

Before I got in the truck to drive off he said "My wife prayed last night that you would get many trouble free miles from her."  I thanked him sincerely and drove off.

Now that the odometer reads north of 280,000 (I have not driven it much at all this past or current year ~ just for logging) I am starting to wonder if they asked the good Lord to give me a certain number of miles or just "many" trouble free miles. I hope they asked Him for a million+.

My wife and I sold a car we never drove any longer not long ago and so we returned the favor. I can't remember if we asked for a certain amount of miles but next time I am going to ask for unlimited mileage. ;D
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

rbhunter

First I will say I believe that American cars are catching up in quality.

The difference is in management. The Japanese management philosophy is called kaizen which means continuous improvement. The Japanese have shared the knowledge with American companies because they are not afraid of them being able to copy it. There are many parts to this process. American companies seem to try and take a part of the process and implement it but struggle with the whole kaizen philosophy.

The Japanese try and improve every little process they can. A part of the process that most Americans can identify with is just in time ordering where parts get to you as you need them. The Japanese also gain alot of insight into improvements from the people who are doing the process along with the engineers. Another part of the process in some of the factories is any employee on the line can shut the line down if a problem is found (or at least used to be able to). In an american plant processes are not improved unless they make a big difference. Some of the machinery in American plants is old and does not work well with just in time situations. Another factor is the moral of employees in most Japanese plants is better than in the American plants. If an employee feels better about thier job they will work harder and take more pride in the output. What is odd is the employee in the American plant is paid more than those in the Japanese plants so great pay does not neccesarily make for a happier worker. There is much more to Kaizen and it is interesting. Try doing a google search on the subject.
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

Mr Mom

   The big three build cheap and sell for big dollars.
   Dad had a ford he is a ford man to the day he dies.
   Had a f150 with the 300 inline six had over 200,000 some miles.
The problem he had were things that would brake should have been made out of somthing better.
   The spring brackets on the back of the truck broke i dont remember how many times. He is not hard on this trucks and the mantaims is done like clock work.
   My friend worked for a dealership and ever year they would get a book the size of a bible of recalls  on cars that just came out.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom


SwampDonkey

Quote from: TexasTimbers on March 04, 2009, 06:59:51 PM


Most Amricans want slick-looking cars. The imports of the last 15ish years look pretty good. But the ones before that are ugly. This theory might be all wrong but that's all I can come up with. I know when you go to a auction whether a blue-collar auction or a high-end auction, you see American almost exclusively. Why? Demand. If dealers could sell old imports you can bet they'd be in those auctions.


I think that is part of it, but a bigger part of it is Americans wanted big vehicles. Not compact vehicles with smaller engines that later became small, strong and more fuel efficient engines.

Around here you can hardly place an offer on a used foreign car because someone else has already got dibs on it. Plain and simple.  American cars are like the throw away wash machine and depreciate a lot faster in value. :D Now you can argue whether it's just hype, euphoria or whatever around foreign cars, but it's also a reality. ;) Today just for the heck of it, I took notice of the traffic and who was driving domestic versus Toyota cars. I also looked in drive ways. Out of 10 cars I passed coming from 30 minutes from home I saw 8 Toyota's. Out of 10 residences I counted 18 cars, most had single vehicles. Those with more than one car had either FORD or GM products, any with one car had a Toyota. I tallied up 6 Toyota vehicles, so in 4 out of 10 residences domestic cars had more than half of the total. Today in the grocery parking lot the car in front was Toyota and two directly behind me in the next parking row were Toyota and the car on either side of me were GM cars. However I would say in the lot as a whole, there were more domestic cars, but I also saw many other brands of foreign cars as well: Honda, Hyundi, VW, Nissan.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I think a lot has to do with who has the best representation in an area.  We rarely see that many Fords.  There are only a few dealers in the area.  But, every little town around used to have a Chevy dealer.  So, GM is heavy in the area.

But, who is building new dealerships in our area?  Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota.  Chevy closed the local dealership last year.  And most dealers deal with more than one company.  The place I bought my Toyota is the same place that I've been buying Chevys.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

In Woodstock there are two GM dealers, one Ford, one Dodge, one Honda and one Toyota. Everything else has to be bought from 100 miles away. Grand Falls has the same ratio (except only one GM dealer) and brands, I'm half way in between. Small local villages have used cars only, mostly domestic. Seems to be a lot of Toyota cars verses all the other numbers of brands for local sales. ;D No town around here has 10,000 residents, most our population is rural. Farmers tend to buy GM and Ford.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Polly

i blame epa for part of the problem , every time they tighten up the spec supposedly for cleaner air that year model car will have a lot of problems example 1997 ,2002, 2007 , 2010 ,i have decided best thing to do is stay away from them year models , i found this out the hard way ::) ::) :-[ :-[

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