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Homegrown Setworks

Started by shaworth, December 14, 2009, 03:22:30 PM

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shaworth

Pineywoods,

On this topic https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=40761.msg586561 my brother let slip that he and I have been building a home grown "setworks".  You asked for more information, and rather than hijack the existing thread I decided to start a new one. 

It all started when I dropped by his place to watch him cut one of his first logs.  I couldn't believe that the up/down adjustment was being done "by eye" and boldly declared I could easily make a digital height adjustment for his saw.  Since then I've learned that such a thing has the official name of "Setworks".  I've never seen so much as a picture of Setworks, so I'm not sure this replaces it.  But my brother (victorh) seems pretty happy, and that's the point.

Since then I've been a lot more careful about shooting my mouth off around my brother.  It hasn't been as easy as I expected. 

Many, many hours later I've nearly finished a custom micro-controller circuit that will allow the operator to move and stop the saw-head with 1/32" precision.  The software has been written.  I've worked out how to measure the movement of the sawhead with the required precision (A hall-effect sensor is used near the motor to count motor revolutions).  I've got a schematic of the saw and understand exactly how to interface with the existing electrical system.  In short all of the parts are in place and mostly tested.

Last night I finished the preliminary control board case:  --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/yc8cgkd and it looks good.  You can browse those picture to get a sense of what it has taken to build the gadget.  This weekend I plan to drag the whole shooting match and install it into my brother's beloved saw.  Assuming my job and family don't interfere. 

It gadget works like this.  The operator to enters a distance, say 4" inches, into the system.  The operator then holds down the green button to indicate that the system should stop the saw-head at the designated position and uses the existing lever to move the head.  When the head reaches that position, the electric motor that moves the saw-head motor is stopped.

If you don't hold the green button when you start moving the saw head, the saw works just like it always did. 

It is actually pretty simple to operate.  Since I don't own a saw, I'm using a garage door opener to test with.  The neighbors must wonder why my garage door won't stay closed.  :)

Pineywoods, I hope that satisfies your curiosity.  Let me know if you want more info.

Thanks,

Shannon

P.S. Can someone tell me how to embed photos and URL's into my posts? 


Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

beenthere

Welcome to the forum. Anxious to see what you designed and fabricated. I'm envious of your ability to put this type of control together. Just out of reach for my skills, but not my interest and a bit of understanding.

Pics are easy, and just need to set up a gallery for yourself, and use the Java uploader (see the way below this blue window) and/or go to the "Behind the Forum" Board on the Home page for a good tutorial. The .jpg file needs to be somewhere in your computer so you just click on the Java Uploader and brouse for your pic. The resizing will be done automatically for you, and the pics will be at the full 500 pixel limit.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

VictorH

I will add that my brothers proposal came after hearing that the factory setworks was only available for 97 and newer units.  I've got a 95. 

ronwood

Shannon,

Welcome to the forum.

I bought the new Simple Setworks for my Woodmizer. Thought about doing my own also but as you seen it takes quite a bit of work. My mill is a 2003 and the sensor is mounted on the pully of the gearbox instead of the motor. Another thing to make sure if it is on a Woodmizer that the chain on the up/down is tension per service manual.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

Magicman

Welcome to FF shaworth.  Looks/sounds like you've been here, at least in spirit, for a while.  Good luck with your project.  I'm interested in hearing about your results.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

shaworth

Quote from: ronwood on December 14, 2009, 04:06:13 PM
Shannon,

Welcome to the forum.

I bought the new Simple Setworks for my Woodmizer. Thought about doing my own also but as you seen it takes quite a bit of work. My mill is a 2003 and the sensor is mounted on the pully of the gearbox instead of the motor. Another thing to make sure if it is on a Woodmizer that the chain on the up/down is tension per service manual.

Ron

Actually, I think I arrived at the same solution.  I have six magnets on the pulley that has spokes.  These little magnets wizz by the sensor and the micro-controller counts the pulses to determine the position of the saw head.  I'm not going to take too much credit here - this is pretty standard fare in the world of industrial control.

I'll defer any saw-mill specific details to my brother - oh Victor!

Shannon

Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

VictorH

We'll check that chain tension - Thanks for the tip.

shaworth

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone.  

Someone (a moderator?) modified my post and removed the link to the photos on flickr, sigh.

Is there any chance that the forestry forum's photo gallery software supports uploads directly from my android cell phone?  I'll be happy to research this myself if someone in the know can tell me what software powers the photo gallery.  There is hope since the android apps are written in Java, and the upload thingy is also written in Java.  Being a software engineer I'm actually willing to modify the java app to run on the android if that is necessary.

On flicker, and all the other sites I post photos, everything is sent directly from my phone, at the push of a button.  I push a button, check the photos I want to send, and select the sites to send them to.  That simple.  I'm not exactly relishing the thought of downloading my photos from the other sites (all of which provide android apps) to my PC for the sole purpose of uploading them back to Forestry Forum using a PC.  Life is too short to shuffle photos from site to site.  So, please, please help me put this on our phones.

Thanks,

Shannon




Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

Planman1954

I use my cellphone and download the photos into My documents-My pictures.

Then I open up my photo gallery, and click on JUPload on the left...This has a program associated with it that downsizes the photo so that it will load fast. Hit the album button and name or select a gallery you've made. Then scroll down and hit browse..and click my documents, my pictures, and then your photo, then hit upload, and then ok.

When you do a post, put your curser where you want the photo, go to your photo gallery by using the forum extras button, click on the photo you want to enter, and then scroll down to the green area, click on it to insert the photo. Then hit preview, and then post.

yeah, nothin' to it, huh. Ha...took me a while.

Planman..
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 / Solar Dry Kiln /1943 Ford 9n tractor

VictorH


sdunston

Looks good, I was thinking about a setworks for manual mills, somthing as simple as a read out with a zero set?
Sam
WM LT28, American fordge 18x8 planer,Orange and white chainsaws, NH TC33, IHT6 dozer, IH-H tractor and alot of other stuff that keeps me agravated trying to keep running

sgschwend

Wow, talk about building from scratch!  ;D

Are you going to have the capability to search for the set point?  Do you need to reach the set point from the same direction?

Good work, your brother owes you big, he will need to cut you a house. ;)
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Woodwalker

shaworth, can you "read" or reference zero at the bed? or do you just read plus or minus from the position of the saw head?
Nice work, I had an old Professor that would have liked the way you are putting it together.

Quote from: sdunston on December 14, 2009, 08:13:57 PM
Looks good, I was thinking about a setworks for manual mills, somthing as simple as a read out with a zero set?
Sam

Something like this? (Rotate the picture ninety degrees)



Digital tape, one end clamped to the head the other to the frame. Reads fractions or metric.
Just cause your head's pointed, don't mean you are sharp.

shaworth

Quote from: sdunston on December 14, 2009, 08:13:57 PM
Looks good, I was thinking about a setworks for manual mills, somthing as simple as a read out with a zero set?
Sam

I don't know the first thing about sawmills, so excuse me if my assumptions are wrong.  

By a manual mill, I'm guess you mean the sawhead is raised and lowered using some sort of manual crank.  If not then the rest of this post isn't going to make any sense.  If so, keep reading.

Currently the gadget is programmed to cut off power to the motor (Via a relay) when the set point is reached.  However it would be trivial to modify the programming to count-down to the correct value and flash lights or do something similar when you reach the point.  

If I'm way off base, tell me where I went wrong and I'll try again.

Shannon
Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

shaworth

Quote from: Woodwalker on December 14, 2009, 09:53:06 PM
shaworth, can you "read" or reference zero at the bed? or do you just read plus or minus from the position of the saw head?
Nice work, I had an old Professor that would have liked the way you are putting it together.

Quote from: sdunston on December 14, 2009, 08:13:57 PM
Looks good, I was thinking about a setworks for manual mills, somthing as simple as a read out with a zero set?
Sam

Something like this? (Rotate the picture ninety degrees)



Digital tape, one end clamped to the head the other to the frame. Reads fractions or metric.


Man that is elegant.  Currently I measure the relative position of the saw-head.  However I am planning to also measure the absolute distance from the saw bed - soon.  The approach I planned to take is almost like your rather amazing, hack.  Nice work.

The folks that build computer controlled CNC machines use what are essentially long timing belts stretched along their axis of movement.  To this a pulley with a encoder wheel is attached - allowing very precise, wiggle-free position to be maintained.  The next revision...

Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

shaworth

Quote from: Planman1954 on December 14, 2009, 06:07:10 PM
I use my cellphone and download the photos into My documents-My pictures.

Then I open up my photo gallery, and click on JUPload on the left...This has a program associated with it that downsizes the photo so that it will load fast. Hit the album button and name or select a gallery you've made. Then scroll down and hit browse..and click my documents, my pictures, and then your photo, then hit upload, and then ok.

When you do a post, put your curser where you want the photo, go to your photo gallery by using the forum extras button, click on the photo you want to enter, and then scroll down to the green area, click on it to insert the photo. Then hit preview, and then post.

yeah, nothin' to it, huh. Ha...took me a while.

Planman..

Thanks for the tips!  I ended up pulling them down, resizing them and uploading them. 
Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

Woodwalker



  The next revision...


[/quote]

You may not have a mill, but your hooked.  :D Keep us posted on any updates.
Just cause your head's pointed, don't mean you are sharp.

pineywoods

Shannon, thanks for the details. Pretty much like I figured you would do it. Did you program the plc yourself ?
I was considering using one of the old junker laptops I have laying around. That would take care of the inputs and displays, pick up a couple of outputs off the parallel port. A hall effect sensor will trigger the data in pin on the serial port. Probably could get away with programming the whole mess in basic. Quick and dirty  ;D
Now if you really want to get on Victors good side, click here.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33159.msg491067.html#msg491067

BTW my mill is the same, 95 woodmizer LT40 manual, except it now sports home-made hydraulics.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

shaworth

Quote from: pineywoods on December 14, 2009, 11:31:44 PM
Shannon, thanks for the details. Pretty much like I figured you would do it. Did you program the plc yourself ?
I was considering using one of the old junker laptops I have laying around. That would take care of the inputs and displays, pick up a couple of outputs off the parallel port. A hall effect sensor will trigger the data in pin on the serial port. Probably could get away with programming the whole mess in basic. Quick and dirty  ;D
Now if you really want to get on Victors good side, click here.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33159.msg491067.html#msg491067

BTW my mill is the same, 95 woodmizer LT40 manual, except it now sports home-made hydraulics.


Victor has already mentioned your rig.  As he did the pitch of his voice dropped and he held his gaze real steady-like.  :)

Yea I coded the software.  I've been programming since the late '70s, so the software side of this project was a breeze for me.  It has been a decade since I programmed a microprocessor and things have gotten a lot more sophisticated on the electronics side.  Most of the time on this project has been spent reading data sheets and re-learning embedded electronics.  Lots of fun, but time consuming.

You seem very pragmatic and I'd like to appeal to that as I preach the embedded micro-processor approach over the clunker laptop approach.  In part because I started this project intending to bring a PC-104 form factor x86 board to the party.  Same thing really.

Cost, a 8bit atmel atmega644 CPU runs about 8 bucks.  This is for a device that cranks out between 8 and 20 million instructions per second.  And is instantly on.  The darn thing is self-contained, flash, eprom, RAM, cpu, pull-up resistors, AD converters, timers ... the whole kitchen sink in a 40 pin chip.  All you need to add is a 5V power supply.  The entire computer is on one chip.

Nearly every pin on this thing (there are 40) is an addressable GPIO.  It is a bit-bangers dream, sans the limitations of the parallel port.

The laptop has a LCD panel illuminated by a florescent tube.  Those tubes tend to go dim over time (as little as 1000 hours).  And they are not that bright to begin with, I can't read mine anywhere near the sun.  Their cold weather performance is embarrassing.

And while I'm using a LCD in my prototype it is illuminated by LCDs, and those suckers don't degrade over time.  But best of all, if I need to I can switch over to LEDs and the design will work in Alaska.

Don't get me started about the keyboard - I'll go with arcade buttons for durability any day.

But the biggest drawback of a laptop is it's complexity.  There are too many points of failure for my tastes.  Plus, unless you enjoy reflow sodering of smd packages, forget about repairing it.  It isn't going to be too keen about the rain and the snow either.

A simple little micro-processor has darn little to break.  Most of the parts (the power supply and RS232 ports really) can be de-soldered and replaced using a $10 iron and a $2 part over the internet.

Now back to that parallel port for a moment.  It reeks of "I like what I know, and I know what I like".  To be honest the atmel CPUs may only be 8 bit devices, but they program and behave a lot like the bad old days of DOS in Intel x86.  The compiler, linker, assembler - the entire tool-chain is open source (read free).  You program the darn things in ANSI (mostly) 'C' and the function library is refreshingly succinct.  Once you finish programming, you hook up your "ISP Programmer", attach it the CPU and run something called "avrdude".  A few seconds later the micro-controller restarts and is running your code.  The only tool that you have to spend money on is the ISP programmer.  I spent $15 on mine.

There is a BASIC compiler (I think it is a C cross-compiler under the hood).  However I'm using and am very happy with the free winavr which is a C compiler.  Atmel gives away their development IDE, avrstudio also.  So you are not stuck with one tool chain.

On, and it borders on being mean to bring this up.  But according to my brother ;) ... that parallel port is going to need either a transistor amp, or better yet a darlington array.  It can't sink enough current to trip and hold a sufficient relay.  You are going to end up with a custom circuit board anyway.  In for a dime, in for a dollar  :)

But I digress...    Your saw mod is impressive to say the least.  Although I'm still slack jawed by the simplicity of the digital tape measure. 

During the build, you didn't happen to note the current draw for each of the electric motors?  We called WM and were told the saw-head up/down motor requires 60A - which seems silly.  I only ask because my brother has started to make noise about having his own remote operator's console.  I think I'm going to have to order a few more relays and a wireless data link.

Regards,

Shannon




Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

beenthere

Shannon
That was an interesting read, and makes me want to scratch an itch when reminded of the 70's and being involved in the new digital (and analog) control design and build (then testing to locate the problems in the design layout or the failure of a chip to do its job). Then out with the solder wick and put in a new chip, etc., etc. Things were big those days compared to the mini-chips now.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

shaworth

Quote from: beenthere on December 15, 2009, 10:25:34 AM
Shannon
That was an interesting read, and makes me want to scratch an itch when reminded of the 70's and being involved in the new digital (and analog) control design and build (then testing to locate the problems in the design layout or the failure of a chip to do its job). Then out with the solder wick and put in a new chip, etc., etc. Things were big those days compared to the mini-chips now.


Digital computing in the '70s, talk about a golden era.  I was a teenager with next to no money, it would be another 6 years before I would start to hack hardware.  The chips have gotten so much smaller, are largely self sufficient, and of course more powerful.  Ah, the bad old days...

If you really feel like scratching that itch less than $100 bucks will get you back in the game.  Heck, the avr butterfly (google it) costs $20 and contains a CPU, plenty of IO, a LCD, buttons - and being an avr based device can be reprogrammed in 'C' using the free winavr software.  Together with a $15 programmer and you are on your way.  Check it out here:  http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc4249.pdf

Shannon
Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

rs1626

HEY SHAWORTH WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN BUILDING ANOTHER ONE ?  IF SO HOW MUCH?

sgschwend

60 amp at 12V sounds correct.

There are also table saw digital gages that can measure position up to multiple feet.  The gage is mounted on a aluminum bar and the detector can slide up and down the bar.

They use a positional coded tape so the reader know distant and position.  There is a problem with vibration that makes reading position difficult.

Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

shaworth

Quote from: rs1626 on December 15, 2009, 11:13:34 AM
HEY SHAWORTH WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN BUILDING ANOTHER ONE ?  IF SO HOW MUCH?

Hmmm.... The thing is actually a collection of parts. 

There are several custom parts:
  1) a relay circuit board
  2) the circuit board that holds the positional sensor
  3) the encoder wheel that holds the magnets and attaches to the drive pully
  4) the software that runs the entire thing
  5) the "control board" enclosure that holds the circuit boards, buttons, joystick and LCD display

There are also a bunch of "off the shelf" ingredients, most of these live inside of the control board enclosure.
  A) An arcade machine joystick (about $20.00)
  B) Arcade machine buttons     (about $8.00 total)
  C) The circuit board holding the CPU and power supply (about $30.00)
  D) 60A automotive relays  (about $20.00 total)
  E) The LCD display module (about $100.00)  - I'm searching for a cheaper alternative that will perform well in direct sunlight.

Anyone who plunks down hard earned money should expect a reliable system.  That means #1 - #5 need to be professionally built.  The circuit boards are easy, this outfit (http://www.batchpcb.com/) will take my schematics and turn them into finished circuit boards.  I expect the final cost per set of boards will be about $30-$40 bucks.  Of course the chips need to be soldered onto the boards by someone...

The encoder wheel needs to be perfectly constructed, it can't wobble or move around. My current plan is to have it laser cut out of a sheet of 1/4" thick plastic (nylon or ABS).  I will actually need to build a sandwich with the magnets completely enclosed.  This means three layers of plastic.  These guys seem reasonable: http://www.customlasercutting.com/ for custom laser cutting.  However I may have to go with an aluminum disc for durability.  I don't know what this will cost yet.

The software is tough - part of me wants to give this away.  But the reality is that I've got a lot of time invested in this and I could have billed that time to my clients (I'm a professional software developer).  I've got a 3yo son and wife to support - figure $300 for the software loaded onto the CPU. 

The control board is currently a plywood box.  It needs to be replaced with a heavy-gauge metal enclosure.  Plastic or wood isn't going to survive the rigors of day to day use.  I'm looking for an off-the-shelf control box that I can put a custom face-plate on.  I would like to keep the enclosure cost below a hundred bucks.  That isn't as easy as it seems since the entire affair needs to be weatherproof.

Obviously I won't allow anyone (other than my brother)  to invest that kind of money into something before it is fully tested.  As we test it we are going to run into things that alter the design, and could impact the cost.  Adding the above up should provide a realistic ballpark estimate. 

When my brother and I decide the design is finalized and ready for prime-time we will see if there is any interest in having a batch of custom parts built, rather than just one set.

Shannon
Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

shaworth

Quote from: sgschwend on December 15, 2009, 11:18:14 AM
60 amp at 12V sounds correct.

There are also table saw digital gages that can measure position up to multiple feet.  The gage is mounted on a aluminum bar and the detector can slide up and down the bar.

They use a positional coded tape so the reader know distant and position.  There is a problem with vibration that makes reading position difficult.



Agreed, I've been looking at alternatives to the encoder wheel.  One thing that shows a lot of promise is the drive pulley and timing belt used in desktop CNC machines (http://buildyourcnc.com/stuffforsale.aspx).  They are very precise and when properly tensioned.  However, even though they are made of kevlar I'm concerned about cold weather performance.  It gets cold in Nebraska! 

A chain seems like a reasonable solution.  However I am concerned that a chain will have too much play to be accurate.  I need to test it.

Do you have a link to one of these?  My google skills are weak today.
Dremel tool, X-Acto knife, Sherline 5400 CNC mill

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