I'm sure this has been discussed in the archives but I was unable to find what I'm looking for. I've got nearly 60 trees that I need to drop and will be starting in the next week or so. Nearly all of them are white oak (Bur) that have died in the last year or two (presumably oak wilt). They're in relatively open pastures so most have a clear path to drop the tree and no structures or power lines nearby. The biggest tree will probably be ~28" at the butt and they aren't overly tall due to growing in semi-open conditions. Most are straight, some are leaning, and a few are on hillsides. I'll have a 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup, 70hp Kubota with FEL and forks, heavy strap, and a couple hundred feet of steel cable and snatch block to help direct the falls.
I've been processing my own firewood for nearly 10 years and am comfortable running a chainsaw. I've dropped a handful of trees, all successfully, but most of my wood is already down when I get to it. I know there's a lot that I don't know when it comes to dropping trees and while much of my education will come by actually doing the work I'd like to learn as much as I can before hand to avoid those mistakes that don't give you a second chance.
So I'm looking for some reading material. Book form would be preferable but online is fine. I learn best by reading and doing but videos are good too. I've already ordered Professional Timber Falling by Doug Dent but it hasn't arrived yet.
Thanks,
Alan
Have you located a buyer/mill for the trees. I don't cut a tree without nowing were it's going and what it will be worth..
i watch felling videos on youtube. lots of info there. jg
I'm no chainsaw expert, but I would especially recommend that YouTube videos by the chainsaw manufacturers, and other equipment manufacturers. I'm privilege to have a hunter at our farm who helps me out, he's really good at it. Like you said, there are some mistakes that don't give you a second chance.
Have you ever bore cut/plunge cut into a tree before?
If you're genuinely concerned, take a course. You can learn a lot of what to do right and what to avoid in a short time. The things persons with good intentions taught me early on, that had to be unlearned during qualified training provided by my employer, was staggering.
There's a pretty good discussion here: Advanced Falling Cuts in Forestry and Logging (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,89495.msg1435470.html#msg1435470)
Youtube does not qualify it's contributors. There's good stuff out there, but just as much bad. You have to be discerning. The suggestion to go to MFGs sites is good advice. Stihl had a really good series at one time.
Thanks for the advice so far. I'd kind of been staying away from youtube not knowing what I'd get but I did come across some of the manufacturer's stuff and it was really good. Much more in depth than I expected. A lot to learn, that's for sure. I'll be starting out with what look to be the easiest trees to learn new skills before tackling the more challenging ones if I feel up to it.
The logs will either be used on my personal sawmill or turned into firewood depending on their quality. Just got the sawmill this summer and already I can see my firewood production is going to be more difficult. Those nice straight logs that split so easily with the axe will now be going to the sawmill and I'll be left splitting the junk.
Alan
Quote from: square1 on October 13, 2017, 05:24:24 AM
Youtube does not qualify it's contributors. There's good stuff out there, but just as much bad. You have to be discerning.
Definitely! There is a lot of worthless junk - or worse yet, dangerous advice - on YouTube.
Husqvarna has a decent series out. you can find it at:
Chainsaw Usage and Safety Training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teb2bQsqx44&list=PL0VcazyXHqErUd8ib-OKs6sZkfGFQ5shu&index=1)
Of course, nothing beats getting some live training. Game of Logging is a good source, but I don't think there are any of them out your way, Alan.
The Husqvarna series was very helpful and the book by Doug Dent was worth the time and money as well. Over the last couple weeks I took down around 20 oak trees and so far things have gone well. Not everything has gone perfect but nothing has really gone wrong either. Most have been straightforward drops that come down from gravity or a little help from the wedges. Early on I did have one tree with more back lean than I thought and I ran out of wedges before I brought it over enough to fall the correct way. Ended up using oak wedges to help finish it off. After that I made it a point to hook a cable to the tree ahead of time if there was any question.
Learning a lot and getting a good collection of nice logs.
Thanks for the help,
Alan
Quote from: mike_belben on October 13, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
Have you ever bore cut/plunge cut into a tree before?
I'm all ears. I seen a feller (not a guy, but he was) <---"pun intended" doing just this for his pie cut and I thought it was unusual. What is the reason aside greater risk of a kickback? He was doing it to all his trees he was felling, so I am curious. :P ???
Quote from: thedoublejranch on November 05, 2017, 04:35:14 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 13, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
Have you ever bore cut/plunge cut into a tree before?
I'm all ears. I seen a feller (not a guy, but he was) <---"pun intended" doing just this for his pie cut and I thought it was unusual. What is the reason aside greater risk of a kickback? He was doing it to all his trees he was felling, so I am curious. :P ???
I use the bore cut frequently, and know quite a few others who do it as well. However, I have never seen anyone bore cut to make their notch.
I've seen bore cutting to make the back cut (which, among other things lets you get your hinge all set to the proper thickness before a front-leaning tree starts moving. In this case, it's done to prevent barber-chair.)
I've also seen people make their notch, then bore cut through the center of the notch to clean out the center of the tree. This lets you take down a tree with a diameter that is nore than twice the length of your bar. (There are also other reasons why someone night bore out the center in this way.)
OK, just observed him do several trees. He would cut the tree with the top of his bar to score it, then once a slice was made, roll the nose in gently, then straighten it out and plunge it in (this motion was to prevent kickback). He made this for his lower cut on his pie. He would then push the saw through and then cut down at a 45 degree by pushing the bar outward from the center. Then come in at a 45 degree for his top cut for his notch. I just assumed he didn't like pulling the saw upward, was easier pushing it downward. Then his back cut leaving the hinge and wedging.
Ok, after watching that video, with the notch having to be cut from a specific side because of the saws design, I can assume the cutter did the plunge cut for the pie because he had to cut from the opposite side for his pie because of heavy brush. It makes sense now. He was not doing it to prevent the barber chair.
Thanks for the reply too. smiley_beertoast
Quote from: thedoublejranch on November 05, 2017, 04:35:14 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 13, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
Have you ever bore cut/plunge cut into a tree before?
I'm all ears. I seen a feller (not a guy, but he was) <---"pun intended" doing just this for his pie cut and I thought it was unusual. What is the reason aside greater risk of a kickback? He was doing it to all his trees he was felling, so I am curious. :P ???
Well, id say white oak and hickory really do require plunge cuts to rule out barberchair. It relieves that stress at the shearline where compression wood and tension wood meet each other. These two species love to delaminate and explode the trunks, maiming or killing the faller. They also need the "ears nipped" as people call it. A light score to sever the sapwood at the sides of the hinge so they dont tear the stump up. Some people call it GOL for game of logging, where you have the tree resting on 3 points and pound in wedges. 2 that make the hinge and one scrap of tensionwood that sets the trigger. When you snip the trigger it goes over. Or... You gauged it wrong and it dont. Then youre pounding tons more wedges trying to lift a tree to get it started. GOL isnt fast and it has a bit of built in danger in that you cant tell if the tree is responding as you intend to your saw cuts, until you release and find out if you won. Its safer when the tree has a slight lean that commits it in a known direction.
Heavy leaners definitely need plunge cuts. I use a pair of bore cuts on slightly different plane to form a lock so that the back cannot physically kick out because theres a 2" step to the stump, preventing a chair.
You dont ever stand behind a horse. Same for a tree youre falling.
...one more bore cut bonus.. Think of it as a probe. You watch the chips coming out for brown rotten dirt or doaty punky texture. This tells you in the first plunge if its sound. Soundness definitely alters your fine tuning on how thick each component needs to be for trustworthiness.
Mike, interesting you mention those points left. These 2 trees were going backwards, he had a wedge in them, then goes and cuts 2 more trees, one falls on another and the 2nd one ended up pushing these 2 trees back the other direction. OK, this is all making sense now. He was weaking them, while the other trees pop the seal and all fell in one direction. :P Very informative post.
Dominoes. Definitely for pro's out in open forest and never for a site with kids running around or equipment, houses, parked cars etc. It goes in the bag of tricks, but the bagholder must be pretty seasoned to know when to apply which one for best results.
I had a thread called "white oak barberchairs" in this forum that has some good images and commentary for white oak and hickory technique. Id cut red oak, maple and pines my whole life.. Then moved 1000 miles south and was blowing stems apart using my former technique. Switched to a variety of GOL type cuts and have had no trouble. But im not fast at all and am almost always near houses or trying to cull between decorative keeper trees on residential lots. I depend on wedges, spurs and ropes more than a real logger.
"Advanced felling cuts" is another thread i reread every year or so but beware its full of pro technique and you better have the basics down, insurance paid, boots tied and bailout path clear.
Thought I'd update this post a little. I finished the first pasture in December and took down about 26 Bur Oak trees. Most were 20-24 inches with the largest just over 30". Everything went well and I learned a lot. I plunge cut most of them, whether they needed it or not, just to help learn the technique and it's one that I'm glad to know. A couple didn't fall the way I expected them to and they were good learning experiences of just how much force a tree can exert. Thankfully none were close calls and overall things went smooth.
The biggest thing I took away was that logging is hard work! And not just the dropping of trees but the cleanup too. I knew going into it that I'd need to clean up the tops and that was the worst part of the job. These were pasture grown trees so relatively short and wide crowned. I had more time in cleaning up than I did dropping the trees and taking the saw logs and the cleanup didn't provide near the satisfaction of dropping trees. In the end I got about 26 logs out of the deal and probably a years worth of firewood. A handful of the logs are really nice and a handful are pretty ugly with the rest falling somewhere in between. Only a couple were over 12' with most being 8-10'.
After getting done with that pasture I told the landowner I was going to take a pass on his other pasture which had just as many trees that needed to come down. Too much time and work for the reward and the trees weren't as nice either. A few weeks later I noticed a bunch of logs dumped behind a farmhouse. Talked to the owner and they were trees, mostly bur oak, they'd taken out for the neighboring bible camp. He was going to burn them for firewood but was happy to sell the larger ones. All I had to do was bring the tractor and trailer to load them up. I got probably 3/4 as much as I did from the pasture job and instead of busting my butt for a couple weeks I spent $400 and a day loading and hauling a few loads. If possible I'll probably be buying the majority of my logs from now on and I sure won't volunteer to cleanup anything I take down for free.
Alan
There you go Alan.
Lesson learned. !!
I think a lot of us started out that way.
Getting FREE trees.
Usually it's the free ones that cost us the most.
Think of all the experience you gained.
I've got almost 20 acres I'm clearing for an additional pasture.
Like you said. The brush cleanup is the hardest part.
Up to almost three acres done now.
There is no end in sight. :D
I am just finishing a free tree job, the farmer that bought the land next to me let me cut ahead of him removing all the hedgerows with an excavator. I have been working on it all winter, the best part is I don't need to do any cleanup, cut the trunks, leave the brush. I have a huge pile of firewood, lots of sawlogs, and lots of time into it.
Free wood chips. Bring your own stump grinder.
This is my go to on felling.
Felling Diagrams in Chainsaws (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69508.0)
If the trees are dead an important thing to remember is the over head branches may be brittle and break off easily . Any slight movement of the stem may dislodge them . Learn to bore cut , and watch overhead . Get with someone who can show you how to do it safely .
Quote from: DMcCoy on February 23, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
This is my go to on felling.
Felling Diagrams in Chainsaws (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69508.0)
One of my favorites
Had another chance to gain some experience and it was worthwhile to show me that sometimes taking out trees in exchange for the logs they'll produce isn't a losing deal. A friend wanted to build a small house utilizing as much cottonwood lumber as possible from the bible camp her father manages. I told her I'd help take down the trees and saw up the lumber. Nice solid trees that are much taller than the oak grove I worked on earlier and the tops aren't as full or bushy. Ranged from 20-30" diameter. We dropped about 15 trees and ended up with somewhere north of 30 logs.
Part of the deal was we needed to clean up our mess, which I wasn't looking forward to, but the burn pile was really close and with thinner tops cleanup with the tractor was not a big deal. Much different than my first experience with the pasture grown oaks. A few days after we got done her plans took an unexpected turn and I inherited all the logs and will only be cutting enough for her to build a small 8x10 garden shed. The rest will go into buildings I plan to build this summer.
As for learning about the felling process on this job I was surprised a couple times when the hinge seemed to crush while doing the plunge cut. These were trees with forward lean and some, but not a lot of, side lean. I notched the trees and then plunged in from the side and set the hinge at 1.5-2" on a 22" tree. As I continued the plunge cut towards the back of the tree the saw would start to bind and I could see the kerf close a little on the side the tree was leaning towards. I put wedges in place on that side and continued the cut. Inspecting the hinge afterwards it looked like it began to sheer from the pressure on that side before the tree had started to fall. After that I started making it a point to leave the hinges a little thicker and get wedges in place on the sides before I got too far towards the back of the tree when doing a plunge cut.
Was this due just to the softer wood (I'm used to cutting oak and ash) or did it also have to do with the wood being frozen? The wood seemed sound with no signs of rot.
Alan
You generally want to shoot for about 10% of a trees DBH (diameter at breast height) for the hinge thickness, though it can vary a bit from species to species. So if that 22" was DBH, you wanted to be shooting for about 2 1/4" thick hinge. If it has much side lean, tap a wedge in just behind the hinge on the side to which it's leaning to help support the hinge. I don't often have to do that - it's needs a significant side lean before that is necessary - on the other hand, I haven't cut much Cottonwood.
I didn't realize people used Cottonwood for construction. I thought it was too weak for structural stuff.
Quote from: John Mc on March 16, 2018, 03:46:54 PM
You generally want to shoot for about 10% of a trees DBH (diameter at breast height) for the hinge thickness, though it can vary a bit from species to species. So if that 22" was DBH, you wanted to be shooting for about 2 1/4" thick hinge. If it has much side lean, tap a wedge in just behind the hinge on the side to which it's leaning to help support the hinge. I don't often have to do that - it's needs a significant side lean before that is necessary - on the other hand, I haven't cut much Cottonwood.
I didn't realize people used Cottonwood for construction. I thought it was too weak for structural stuff.
Thanks. Sounds like my hinge was as little skinny. Will be more careful about that from now on.
I'm new to milling as well and have never used cottonwood for framing. Done a lot of reading on the subject and some people says it's great and others say it isn't. Sounds like it has a tendency to get squirelly as it dries. I guess I'll find out. Doesn't seem to be a problem finding span charts and strength ratings to figure out how to size the boards/beams. It's pretty much all hardwood here so cottonwood is about the only thing available in quantity that I can cut myself and have any hope of driving a nail into.
Alan
If it was me I wouldn't plunge I'd chase the back cut always felt like there's more control, if boring yes you can set thickness of a hinge but you can't watch how the tree is starting to move. To do this start on your high side walk the tip to the low side if oversize of your bar length this allows you to see what's actually happening with the tree and when. Cheap easy fast trick for watching a tree put a bobber wedge in the back cut.
Decided to drop a few more of the cottonwoods before calling that job quits. The only ones left were the tougher ones with back lean (over the road and into other trees) and side lean. First tree was pretty easy and went fine. Second tree had side lean but I thought I could manage it with hinge placement and leaving a thicker hinge on the non-leaning side. I could tell the tree was fairly rotten as I started cutting it and as a result the hinge broke right away and the tree fell where it wanted to. Thankfully it ricocheted off another tree and missed crushing the sapling we were trying to avoid by 2 feet.
The third tree was a back leaner. I climbed a ladder to hook a cable as high as I could but since the tree was so tall it was relatively low on the tree but the best I could do. I gave the tree a hard tug before making any cuts to be sure I had good traction and that I was able to shake it pretty hard. Cut the notch and it was extremely rotten. Cut another notch a couple feet higher and it was a little better. Back cut with wedges and left a really thick hinge figuring it was pretty rotten. Tried to pull it over and while the top of the tree shook and swayed it didn't come down and my helper said she didn't see the kerf open at all. Cut the hinge as thin as I was comfortable with (about 2" on an 18" tree) and gave it another try - still no luck.
Got out a few more wedges and started driving them in. It was working but once they were about 3/4 of the way in I no longer wanted to be standing next to a tree with a potentially rotten hinge so went back to the truck for another pull. This time it came down. Inspected the hinge and found the heartwood completely rotten so the only thing holding it was about 1 1/4" of sapwood on either side. There were still a few more trees I wanted to take down with back lean but after looking them over again decided I wasn't comfortable considering this one that just gave me so much trouble had the least lean of all of them.
More lessons learned. Much more respect for rotten wood and tall back-leaners are hard to pull over with a low-hooked cable.
Alan
Yeah leverage definitely in the trees favor. I gaff up for setting high line on really critical stuff. Its a pain but cheaper than flattening a house.
Husqvarna had some great felling tutorials several years ago when I worked for them. I was fortunate to get to work with the 7-time Lumberjack champion Ron Hartill on a few safety seminars and learned an awful lot from him. Any video on YouTube affiliated with Husqvarna or Stihl would be worth watching. Center/ bore cut and understanding of the "hinge" and backstrap will be important.
The best tutorial I was ever given was pounding wedges and bucking for an older faller this will teach you more then anything video can or will. Call me old school for this but the school of hard knocks is worth it's weight in gold.
Quote from: MonsterMaul91 on March 23, 2018, 08:04:48 PM
Husqvarna had some great felling tutorials several years ago when I worked for them. ... Any video on YouTube affiliated with Husqvarna or Stihl would be worth watching.
See reply #7 in this thread.
Maybe I missed it, but I highly recommend you go to a Game Of Logging (GOL) training, it will teach you a lot about using a chainsaw and felling trees. When I took it (sessions 1 & 2) I had been felling trees for 30 years. I learned a lot of safer ways to do the job.
Several years ago, I had a farmer friend who was cutting a hedge row tree, he notched it properly and then started the back cut, when the tree fell it landed directly on his 2 yr old 120 HP tractor and broke it in two. That cost him a whole bunch to get the tractor moved and then repaired. He never took the GOL training.
what went wrong that his aim was that far off, and how would a GOL style trigger have changed this error?
If anything my issue is GOL doesnt give you any feedback on the trees commitment to your plan until you turn it loose.
Quote from: mike_belben on March 24, 2018, 01:01:41 PMIf anything my issue is GOL doesnt give you any feedback on the trees commitment to your plan until you turn it loose.
That's kind of the point of GOL is that the tree does not start moving until you cut the back strap. You aren't hanging around the stump as the tree starts to move in order to finish your cut. Your hinge has already been set to the proper thickness. If there is any doubt as to which way the tree wants to move, tap in a wedge before cutting the holding strap. If cutting the strap doesn't start it going, a couple of whacks on the hinge will usually start a close one on it's way, and yo can get out as soon as it starts to move.
I use it often but have stopped doing GOL (hillbillies call it "match sawn") on any tree that is fully vertical and looks like it could go any way i want. The more unsure i am about its commitment to a direction the more reluctant i am to choose GOL on that tree. I would rather undermine the stump with a deep notch and slowly shift the lean by conventional backcut wedging while the hinge is very thick and stable.
The tree can LOOK completely unbiased but that doesnt mean its gotna balanced weight. A major fork may have snapped off 30 years ago and you dont notice the nub 70 feet up.
thing that made me use it less:
If i notch a really vertical tree to fall north and setup a GOL trigger, but its actually weighted to the south (which is common due to sun) then i snip the trigger and it just sits on the wedges. Now what? Before long i have every wedge i own in the kerf until it looks like a busted yellow smile.. And it still aint going. Now what? I cant leave a widowmaker up, i cant be safe anywhere near it, i cant climb it now.
Maybe the hinge is too thick.. Whittle whittle. Pound pound pound. Whittle whittle. Now im standing next to a pretty dangerous tree. If the hinge gets too thin and we pound too hard itll lift the entire tree, tear one tab off and fly to the side or rotate off the stump. Ive had it happen twice. One bounced off my dozer onto my quad. Coulda killed someone. Note the missing major limb that i didnt see.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0520171710~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1517925861)
If using a conventional chase cut, with an indicator wedge like skeans is always advocating, you find out really quickly from the tree itself, where shes going. This information is absolutely critical, early in the cut, if you want to adjust your setup while there is still wood left to do so. Maybe you want to go way deeper in the notch to push the hinge line back into the heartwood and undermine the butt so it takes a lot less wedge lift. Maybe you want to leave a ton more hinge meat in order to stay attached throughout the major wedging that you'll need to do in order to turn her the other way.
i do like GOL for the rot feedback from probing the heartwood, but IMHO it should not be used on uncommitted trees because it mutes the trees feedback until you free it. Thats felling by luck, which can run out. i hate hearing about good people getting hurt.
If your tree is anything other than perfectly balanced, pushing the hinge back to undermine the butt is pointless. for moderate degrees of lean, a 60 foot high tree will have it's top shifted about 1 foot for each degree of lean. It doesn't take much for the lean to put the center of gravity outside of the stump of the tree: take a perfectly balanced tree 24" at the stump (= 12" radius). Give it just 1 degree of back lean and the CG right at the back edge of that stump. Undercut that notch as far as you want, and the tree is still going backwards unless something other than gravity affects it (wind, a wedge, a rope). Further, by deepening the notch, you shorten the lever against which your wedge is lifting, which means you need more force on the wedge to tip the tree, not less.
Typically on a back leaners to get a leg up you'd back cut first then put a wedge or wedges in fairly tight before a face is put in like you would when jacking. With boring and back strapping you can't do this because you're not setting a hinge right off the bat you typically have to continue cutting well feeling the trees movement.
I have had a couple of trees that would not fall. Wedge and double wedge did't matter. Finally had to take out all the wedges nip the hinge a little and let it go over backwards. Not my favorite thing to do.
Quote from: John Mc on March 25, 2018, 01:39:02 PM
If your tree is anything other than perfectly balanced, pushing the hinge back to undermine the butt is pointless.
[...]
Further, by deepening the notch, you shorten the lever against which your wedge is lifting, which means you need more force on the wedge to tip the tree, not less.
Nothing personal john, but i think youre mistaken about the basic premise of the leverage analogy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0325182047.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1522029300)
Note that the same wedge tips the deeper cut hinge to a greater angle which means the top moves further off center from one wedge than if using the shallow notch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0325182051.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1522030507)
If this was a wheelbarrow youd know pretty fast that a 50/50 bias takes less effort than a 30/70 to lift the handles.
If you dont believe me, put jackstands or a wood block under the rear bumper of your car trailer next time you unhitch. Youll feel the difference. Shallow notches are harder to wedge over.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0325182126.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1522031406)
Mike -
If it weren't for the fact that we are talking about leaning trees, and the tree were perfectly balanced over the center of the stump, I would agree with you: in this case, the fact that you had unloaded some of the weight that the wedge is lifting is a significant factor.
If the tree is back leaning, you no longer have 50% of the weight on the other side of your fulcrum. In fact, you may have almost all of the weight behind your fulcrum. The analogy would be like trying to jack up the back end of your car by clamping your front wheels to the ground and putting your jack under the driver's door. For a tree with even a few degrees of back lean, cutting the distance from your hinge to the back of the tree in half cut's your leverage in half, but due to the back lean of the tree you have not unloaded 50% of the weight. Depending on the degree of the lean, you may only have unloaded a fraction of the weight.
Quote from: John Mc on March 25, 2018, 11:17:25 PM
Mike -
If it weren't for the fact that we are talking about leaning trees
Maybe i got lost somewhere. Im not talking about leaners. I said in post 36
"
I use it often but have stopped doing GOL (hillbillies call it "match sawn") on any tree that is fully vertical and looks like it could go any way i want. The more unsure i am about its commitment to a direction the more reluctant i am to choose GOL on that tree."I am fine with GOL on a tree that looks pretty committed to a certain direction. If its got a bunch of front lean i bore cut in a set of steps to form a lock so it cant chair.
Nasty backleaners i try to avoid. .. Id rather swing to the side than attempt jacking up with wedges to switch from north to south. If its a must i just gaff up and set a line.
Thanks guys for the interesting conversation.
Alan
Quote from: mike_belben on March 26, 2018, 12:31:39 AMMaybe i got lost somewhere. Im not talking about leaners.
And my point was that - at least on the size trees I'm cutting - as little as one degree of lean or imbalance can put the balance point outside of the stump. The GOL technique is designed to give control even when you aren't 100% sure which way it's going from the start, and to let you get away from the stump as soon as the tree starts moving. That's the point of setting up the hinge first and leaving the holding/support strap as the last thing you cut.
I'm not saying it's the only way to fell a tree. If what your doing works for you, and what I'm doing works for me, and we're both still around to talk about it, that's great.
Fair enough. Lets hope we all stick around to split hairs for a long time to come!