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Skidder Dilemma

Started by SliverPicker, February 12, 2014, 01:25:25 PM

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SliverPicker

I recently purchased a C5 from a guy in Michigan.  I was told it was a 1985 C5D.  Well, to make a long story short it turns out, after talking to John at  Davco in Maine the skidder is actually a 1976 or 1977 C5?. 

Is this grounds to try to retroactively negotiate the price? 
Yooper by trade.

mad murdock

Man that is a tough one!  If the negotiated price was set and agreed upon more by its manufactured year rather than condition of the machine as a whole, then it may be worth a try, IMO.  I gauge worth of older iron soley on condition machine, regardless of how old it is.  Kind of how aircraft are treated. Year of manufacture is a minor consideration. What matters is condition of the component parts, how much time on the engine since overhaul, %rubber left, trans and final drive condition, hydraulics condition and function, and winch status and operation. The year it was built is really a minor issue unless the seller is touting that as a reason to ask what he is asking, make sense?
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

SliverPicker

Makes sense.  The fact that the machine is a whole decade older than what it was sold as has me a bit concerned.  Parts availability is a big deal when your machine gets to be 40 years old. 
Yooper by trade.

Corley5

There's probably not much difference between a 1975 and 1985 C5  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

mad murdock

Yeah parts availability will be very similar things didn't change a lot until they started putting a lot of electronics on machinery in the early 90s and beyond. The older tree farmers have always been component machines. Parts availability is pretty easy
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

SliverPicker

Quote from: Corley5 on February 12, 2014, 03:52:15 PM
There's probably not much difference between a 1975 and 1985 C5  :)

No difference except for 10 years of wear and tear.  I hear ya.  Parts seem to be about the same.
Yooper by trade.

rockwall

So what is the condition of the machine?

David-L

Do you have  a bill of sale that says 1985. if you do I think you could negotiate no matter the condition good or bad. Just MO.

                               David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

loggah

I,m thinking the older machine will have a Cotta transfer case which is next to impossible to get parts for, also if  he cant get the year right i would wonder what else wasn't quite right !!!!! It would be a deal breaker for me big time !!!!! Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Decked

I bought a brand new out of the box 540D in Nov. '86. Nowhere on any document was the year listed, everything went by the serial number ???

SliverPicker

Quote from: David-L on February 12, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
Do you have  a bill of sale that says 1985. if you do I think you could negotiate no matter the condition good or bad. Just MO.

                               David l

Bill of sale says 1985.  John at Davco checked the serial number on the engine.  The 5 cylinder Deutz came off of the assembly line on October 1st 1976.  The transmission in the machine is a New Process 4590.  Davco says mid-70's.  Cotta transfer case model 1610 with P101363-4 PTO.
Yooper by trade.

loggah

I know even 10 years ago getting those Cotta transfer case parts was a P.I.T.A. !!!
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

David-L

these used machines can make your wallet soar quick. did you ask the seller yet why the machine was misrepresented if it was a sight unseen buy except looking at it on the internet. 10 years is alot in my book even if it's in good condition. follow it out, see what he says.

                                      David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

SliverPicker

I haven't talked to the seller yet.  I just got the year of the engine yesterday at noon.  I am sure the seller truly thought he was selling a 1985, but I'm not sure what information he was using to determine the year.

I hope transfer case parts aren't too difficult to get.  I think it needs a shift fork for L/H.

I am going to call the seller tomorrow morning. 
Yooper by trade.

mad murdock

P/Loggah, are there other 2 speed gear boxes that can be mated up to the drive train? or is that more of a pain?
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

loggah

The newer tree farmers like i had ,1986 C6 had a different transfer case all together i believe can -car ,not really sure i never had to replace anything in it,welded steel case. The problem with the transfer cases in tree farmers  is they are not only high-low range,they also have reverse in them, and the winch drive. Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Reddog

So the motor is a 1977. Most likely didn't make it to TF until late 77 or early 78.
Then how long until it was used in production?
The late 70's early 80's was a very lean time in midwest logging.
Good chance it sat on a dealers lot for a few years.
Grapples were not used in that area much before the mid to late 80's.

I would say if the machine is tight and runs good, count you blessings on a long distance purchase of a logging antique.

HiTech

I bought a skidder from the Internet. Was told it had a bad motor. Got it trucked home and the motor was good. I did find a few things wrong. Had to replace one front spindle and bearings/seals. Found the front differential was the non locking type. Put a locker in. Later found out that they put non locking front differentials in at the factory, for what reason I don't know. lol Cut the original roll cage off and built a good one. I was just happy the machine was tight and I don't think it saw much if any hard use. I did have to build a skid plate for the front and back pumpkins. I do not know why these machines don't come with them. I couldn't imagine bouncing over rocks without one. Ya it is rocky here. When you take a chance of buying without actually looking at a machine other than internet pictures you count your blessings when just small things are wrong. That skidder will last me the rest of my life and probably someone else's if they take care of it.

MEloggah

Was this skidder the grapple on eBay? It had my attention but I didn't like the c5 grapple myself. It limited the skidder to small hitches with those small sorting grapples. With the majority of the wood I cut being 24" butts or bigger I want more then two trees behind me each hitch. I like to use those duetz engines for what they were built for. PULLIN!

SliverPicker

Yeah it was on ebay.  The grapple was added years after the skidder was built.  At the elevation this thing will be used that sorting grapple will probably be plenty big.  You lose 3.5% horsepower for every 1000 feet above sea level.  You lose 3.5% if the engine is tuned perfectly.  If not you lose more.  I will be using the skidder between 8000 and 10,000 feet elevation.

Loggah is correct about the tranfer case having F/R, L/H and a PTO for the winch.  Its a Cotta 1610.

I talked to the seller yesterday.  No consensus was reached.  I am going to collect more info. and call him back next week.
Yooper by trade.

MEloggah

I think you will be surprised what those duetz will pull. Granted I'm at sea level but the smallest one we had was a 4cyl duetz and I would fill all 7 sliders with 20-30" tree length white pine, winch up, put her in 2nd and march away. One I got onto somewhat flat ground I could grab 3rd and continue on my way. Our 5cyl TFers would pull even that much harder. You'll be happy.

David-L





Also not bad on fuel, the 353 in the TJ 225D is better on fuel but wont pull as much wood as my 225A TJ with a 5L912 Duetz did.. Kinda miss it.



 

                                       David l








In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

SliverPicker

I've got a gear or shift fork to change in the transfer case, if I can get the parts, and a bunch of oil seals to do in the axles and transmission and transfer case.  Since I am going to have to pull the TC to get to the gear/fork I am going to put all new bearings in the case (Davco recommendation). The motor flat out purrs.  I have literally not heard a single bad word about the Duetz engines.   The hydraulics are strong and quick to react.  Blade cylinders both need to be repacked.  I haven't pulled any wood with this Tree Farmer yet, but I have plowed a few tons of snow.

The tires are round and hold air.  Lots of cuts.  Some cuts in the sidewalls up to 18" long, but no bulges.  18.4 X 34.  I got a quote yesterday for $1890 for Firestones installed, tubes extra.  I hope the tires on the machine last long enough to earn enough dough for a new set.

Is anyone familiar with the New Process 4590 transmission?  Loggah?  I've been told the main shaft can be a weak point.
Center pins need bushings.  No line boring needed thankfully.  Cradle bushings seem a little loose, but not very bad.

Spent 6 hours yesterday power washing off 38 years worth of crud.  There won't be any dust from that spot in the driveway when summer comes.




Yooper by trade.

rockwall

Looks like you got a good one! Your tires will probably last a long, long time.

David-L

looks straight, once the bugs are out of it you will be happy for sure. Thing is they don't make these small machines anymore and  that gives cause to fix it up cause they hold there value.

                             David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

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